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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events

Topic: Budget cuts

Topic: Budget cuts

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RPO R6V
General User

Member Since: 1/7/2005
Post Count: 206

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Budget cuts

Posted: 5/6/2019 9:34:21 PM

https://www.athensnews.com/news/local/ou-academic-college...

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/7/2019 11:25:29 AM

Funny, we will have 10 pages on budget issues of other schools, but man we run from our own issues.

JSF
General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,338

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/7/2019 11:55:24 AM

This is a disgrace and I'm furious.

We have at least one Trustee who comes to the board, right? I say to you directly: You need to do something about this. The university has a surfeit of administrators and these should be the primary targets of cuts. Attracting and retaining high-quality faculty should be a top priority of our alma mater. I understand the fiscal realities, but this is not the way.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/7/2019 1:38:32 PM

JSF wrote:

Brightbill is no longer a trustee.

Buckeye to Bobcat
General User

Member Since: 9/10/2013
Post Count: 1,776

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/8/2019 1:32:21 PM

JSF wrote:

+1

The bureaucracy created in the COB is beyond absurd with the # of Asst. Dean roles created through the years. Definitely a group that could utilize a budget cut if you ask me.

rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,503

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/8/2019 2:34:37 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

JSF wrote:

+1

The bureaucracy created in the COB is beyond absurd with the # of Asst. Dean roles created through the years. Definitely a group that could utilize a budget cut if you ask me.

As I've posted before,I Chair FDU's Industrial Advisory Committee For Civil and Construction Engineering.

It amazes me how many mid-level administrators they have.

Its also next to impossible to get any explanation of what they do.

It also amazes me how few classes "full" professors teach.

Seems they rely on adjuncts and asst. professors.

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/8/2019 4:10:53 PM

And this problem of bureaucratic overburden isn't just confined to higher education. Take a look at your average city school district. This is a deep, societal problem. We don't trust teachers to teach, so we have to hire all sorts of administrators to coordinate and insure that things are done in a manner that is acceptable to the various constituencies, the most important of which is the federal government's educational bureaucracy. A good first step would be abolishing the U.S. Department of Education, and return a greater measure of control to the state and local levels. However, the state education bureaucracies in many cases are nearly as bad as the federal ones. This will be no easy chore, and it can't be done overnight; it's a systemic problem and will require a complete reset of our national will in order to correct it.

Last Edited: 5/8/2019 4:12:08 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/8/2019 9:14:53 PM

Well said Ohio Cat Fan. In 1914 there were over 2,500 public school districts in Ohio. This was due to the fact that one room school houses were often counted as an entire district. The General Assembly put an end to that and school district numbers dropped dramatically, especially after World War II when consolidation was encouraged. I believe it was somewhere around the mid-1950s that any additional exempted public school districts was put to an end. Usually these were small towns that still had their own district.

Consolidation was suppose to bring about an enhanced learning experience where elementary, middle and high school buildings were the norm. Many Catholic and other religious schools held on the to the K-8 model. Supporting the concept of a K-8 building was definitely a no-no when I took Education classes at our beloved Alma mater. I was read the riot act on a few occasions for having antiquated ideas. The funny thing is now you will notice that in rural districts K-12 buildings are the wave of the future, because research shows it provides a strong community feeling.

When lawmakers on the state and federal level went from trying to help local districts in their efforts to better educate children, to telling local districts what to do and how to teach--well that's where things started to go downhill. Local residents who once took pride in their local teachers and buildings soon felt a disconnect because they felt they had lost much of their control. Beautiful old buildings built with a labor of love by local people were replaced with hideous structures, many of which were staffed by people they did not know. A disconnect emerged which resulted in apathy and levies not being supported. It is a complicated subject, but this is an area that doesn't often get covered.

Last Edited: 5/8/2019 9:17:57 PM by cbus cat fan

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/8/2019 10:10:00 PM

Interesting history lesson, cbus cat fan. One of the exempted village school districts that was put out of business was right here in Athens County -- the Chauncey-Dover Exempted Village School District. The wisemen in Columbus decided that it was too small to provide good education so they forced it to merger with the much larger Athens School District and The Plains School District. IMHO, this was a tragic mistake. When the Chauncey-Dover school district was in operation they had teachers who knew how to teach students from that kind of socio-economic background (i.e., poor, mainly white, folks). For instance, there was one teacher in that high school who taught Latin. Every year students for that district placed in the state Latin test. After the merger, I'll bet no student from the old Chauncey-Dover district ever even took the state Latin test. In fact, when my kids were at Athens High there were teachers who actively discriminated against those students, some subtly and some overtly. One teacher, who shall go nameless, referred in front of other students to his "redneck Chauncey students." Now, the Athens District is in the process of eliminating the Chauncey Elementary school so that the discrimination against these students can start in first grade instead of waiting until they get to high school. Ironically (maybe hypocritically, would be a better word), the Athens educational establishment is claiming that they are making this move to end discrimination!

BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 10:39:05 AM

Small schools are a total waste of money and resources. OHIO needs more consolidation, fewer Superintendents, fewer principals and treasurers. Not to mention the building boom to try and satisfy the Rolph decision was a huge waste of money in building new buildings for districts that are simply too small to justify the cost. As for the K-12 campus, only really practical in these smaller communities due to land restraints and other resources.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

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RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 11:31:33 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Out of curiosity, were the Department of Education abolished, how would you propose funding school systems in low-tax revenue areas? That would eliminate 10% of the entire operating budget of school systems nation-wide, and a much higher percentage proportionately to areas that don't generate high property taxes.

And while I don't doubt that there's administrative bloat in city school districts -- in fact, I know there is, my wife is an employee of the DOE in NYC and she talks about it constantly -- city school districts also tend to outperform rural school districts pretty drastically at the high school level.

I think it's easy to assume bureaucrats are useless. But it's worth at least trying to understand their function and the results, right?

Last Edited: 5/9/2019 11:46:22 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

JSF
General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,338

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 12:57:48 PM

I don't know how one could have a country of nearly 400 million people and not have some national oversight on education.

Recently, the Texas Education Agency blocked the Houston Independent School District- I believe the nation's third-biggest school district- from hiring a superintendent. Why? Because the state wants to take the district over. So much for small government, eh?

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 1:04:28 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Athens County has 67,000 residents and five public school districts. Scioto County (Portsmouth) has 76,000 and has 11. Talk about duplication of services. Heck, Millersport (Walnut Township) has less than 600 students in the whole district.

Kevin Finnegan
General User

Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 1,084

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 3:07:16 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

This first quote is so far out of line, it's made with likely little understanding. The reality is that larger school districts tend to have more administrative overhead than less. In Illinois, we have 852 school districts. Naturally, the impulsive thought would be to consolidate districts. Our former governor, Pat Quinn (who isn't in prison, big news for us), pushed consolidation. Yet a task force showed that this was not a cost saver. In many cases, the smaller districts were run far more efficiently.

I'm in a district of 800 students. I'm a principal and an assistant superintendent, I'm in charge of curriculum, I run much of the human resources, etc. In a smaller district, you wear more hats than in the bigger districts. There is a district neighboring ours where the superintendent is also the principal, and also drives busses for field trips.

In larger districts, the administrative overhead becomes intense. Assistant Superintendents fill many roles. There are coaches for subject matters throughout that don't directly work with students. For the state of Illinois, there is one administrator for every 181 students. In our 800 students in our district, we are at 3 administrators. That's one for every 266.

This is not to mention that smaller schools, with more direct contact between decision makers and students (not multiple levels of bureaucracy), scores tend to be higher. Again, my district is one of the smaller of neighboring districts. Our scores are far and away the best in the area. That is because we are able to make decisions that directly impact our students. Our district mission statement is simple: Students first, always.

Smaller districts work. To say otherwise due to the thought that each district has a superintendent is to look at one piece of the equation. Combine four districts that have just a superintendent and principals, you're still having a direct superintendent, likely multiple assistant superintendents, and now to keep the districts working on the same page, you're going to hire coaches to travel between schools, curriculum directors for each content area, and more central office staff members as well.

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 3:26:42 PM

JSF wrote:

Is to a certain degree, this is what Common Core was supposed to be. A kid in Texas and a kid in Ohio should both graduate with a similar core of knowledge and cultural competency. Local control makes sure that doesn't happen on a daily basis.

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 3:32:31 PM

finnOhio wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Your experiences in Illinois are quite different than in Ohio. Many of the highest scoring districts in Ohio are also on the larger end (Dublin, Olentangy, etc.). Smaller schools can't offer the range of curricular and co-curricular activities that larger ones can. This isn't a black and white issue. There are lots of districts between the size of Columbus and Millersport. What most have finally come to acknowledge is that family income and the level of education of the parents are two of if not the two most important determinants of student success.

Based on working in hundreds of schools in Ohio and 25+ other states, I stick by my claim that Ohio has way too many school districts.

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 3:38:53 PM

finnOhio wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

This is not to mention that smaller schools, with more direct contact between decision makers and students (not multiple levels of bureaucracy), scores tend to be higher. Again, my district is one of the smaller of neighboring districts. Our scores are far and away the best in the area. That is because we are able to make decisions that directly impact our students. Our district mission statement is simple: Students first, always.

Please don't take this personally, but looking at the demographics of Rockton, the name of the town could very easily be Pleasantville. Take a look at this demographic data. There's not a teacher I know who wouldn't relish teaching in such and environment with stable families and little to no poverty.

As of the census[9] of 2010, there were 7,685 people, 1,930 households, and 1,464 families residing in the village. The population density was 1,505.5 people per square mile (580.9/km�). There were 2,008 housing units at an average density of 570.8 per square mile (220.3/km�). The racial makeup of the village was 91.80% White, 1.40% African American, 0.1% Native American, 1.10% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 0.45% from other races, and 0.45% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3.60% of the population.

There were 1,930 households out of which 42.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 65.2% were married couples living together, 8.4% had a female householder with no husband present, and 24.1% were non-families. 20.6% of all households were made up of individuals and 8.5% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.72 and the average family size was 3.18.

In the village, the population was spread out with 31.1% under the age of 18, 6.2% from 18 to 24, 31.4% from 25 to 44, 21.5% from 45 to 64, and 9.8% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 35 years. For every 100 females, there were 97.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 93.0 males.

The median income for a household in the village was $57,292, and the median income for a family was $62,863. Males had a median income of $47,321 versus $32,771 for females. The per capita income for the village was $24,078. About 1.4% of families and 1.3% of the population were below the poverty line, including 1.3% of those under age 18 and none of those age 65 or over.

Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 1,084

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 4:04:24 PM

Alan, no offense taken. My bio is obviously a few years old, as I live a couple of towns over. I did live in Rockton, but never worked there. I work (and now live) in South Beloit, Il. Still not an inner-city by any means, but here is the breakdown of demographics (again, using 2010 census data):

The population density was 1,362.9 people per square mile (526.2/km2). There were 2,345 housing units at an average density of 592.2 per square mile (228.6/km2). The racial makeup of the city was 87.16% White, 5% African American, 0.63% Native American, 1.01% Asian, 0.07% Pacific Islander, 3.48% from other races, and 1.83% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 7.49% of the population.

There were 2,165 households out of which 33.8% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 49.1% were married couples living together, 11.4% had a female householder with no husband present, and 34.5% were non-families. 28.8% of all households were made up of individuals and 10.3% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.46 and the average family size was 3.01.

In the city, the population was spread out with 26.5% under the age of 18, 8.7% from 18 to 24, 33.4% from 25 to 44, 18.5% from 45 to 64, and 12.9% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 33 years. For every 100 females, there were 98.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 96.2 males.

The median income for a household in the city was $35,597, and the median income for a family was $41,154. Males had a median income of $33,110 versus $22,596 for females. The per capita income for the city was $18,363. About 8.2% of families and 10.0% of the population were below the poverty line, including 15.4% of those under age 18 and 7.6% of those age 65 or over.

While I do deal with a more privileged clientele than some, that does not change that the smallness of our district (or of any smaller district) allows for more intimate and direct services.

You mentioned the county of Scioto having more school districts than Athens. I'm not familiar with either (other than my years as a Bobcat), but Scioto is more than 100 square miles larger than Athens, so I would imagine that the more spread out factor of the county plays a part in that as well. The question, assuming they're similar in many other ways, is which county has districts performing better academically and economically?

And, since this is about the economics more so than the demographics, here's a breakdown in the small district I'm in economically compared to the demographics of the state:

Illinois Per Student Instructional Spending: $8,023.61
Prairie Hill SD #133 Per Student Instructional Spending: $5886.77

Illinois Per Student Operational Spending: $13336.64
Prairie Hill SD #133 Per Student Operational Spending: $9445.07

So, we are spending about 27% less per student on instructional spending than the state average and nearly 30% less per student in operational spending than the state average. It is more economical to be a smaller district.

Last Edited: 5/9/2019 4:20:55 PM by Kevin Finnegan

cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 5:14:23 PM

A very interesting discussion because we often see strange political bedfellows in these arguments. A few years ago the Buckeye Institute a conservative think tank in Ohio put out a position paper calling for more school consolidation, actually mentioning specific counties and school districts in the state. The paper was widely praised by some urban policy education groups and liberal think tanks. However, grass roots conservative groups lambasted the Buckeye Institute accusing them of becoming establishmentarians. A few liberal grass roots education groups joined their conservative colleagues in this assessment.

Supporters of these small schools believe a community spirit exists that helps some students who might not otherwise succeed do so because of a familiarity with their teachers and community pulling for them. Larger rural districts like Napoleon generally score well on achievement tests because in their view they have the best of both worlds, a somewhat larger pool of students and teachers from which to draw and more resources than a Vanlue or Old Fort could offer (which will follow this paragraph.)

The last consolidation to take place in Ohio occurred in 2014 when Old Fort in Northwest Ohio took in Bettsvile school district. These two schools district were in far northern Seneca County. Bettsvile had an operating deficit and a community meeting (something right out of a scene in the movie Hoosiers) decided that they should merge with Old Fort. Though the schools were bitter athletic rivalries, both communities agreed this was their best course of action and Bettsville became part of the Old Fort Stockaders (one of my favorite nicknames.)

Vanlue is another school system that hangs on even though they have less than 80 students in the high school. They even field a football team and at last count I believe they fielded a team of 15 boys (no JV team.) I am not sure what's going to happen to their athletic programs since they aren't getting any bigger. However, their community is fiercely proud of their tradition and refuse to listen to merger talks. I believe Findlay might be the closest school district, but I can't say that for a fact without doing more research.

Below is a picture of the Vanlue Football team as well as the district's website.
http://vanlueschool.org/course/view.php?id=158

Last Edited: 5/9/2019 5:19:54 PM by cbus cat fan

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 5:21:30 PM

finnOhio wrote:

. . .
Illinois Per Student Instructional Spending: $8,023.61
Prairie Hill SD #133 Per Student Instructional Spending: $5886.77

Illinois Per Student Operational Spending: $13336.64
Prairie Hill SD #133 Per Student Operational Spending: $9445.07

So, we are spending about 27% less per student on instructional spending than the state average and nearly 30% less per student in operational spending than the state average. It is more economical to be a smaller district.

I think that these are very telling stats. Throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution to that problem. As I said in my first blurb in this thread, I believe that the old Chauncey-Dover Exempted Village School District gave their students a better education than the later combined district. Their tax base and spending per pupil I'm sure was at the low end statewide. Bureaucrats looking at these figures in Columbus probably made decisions not based on any actually knowledge of the district, but on statistical models of what a school district should have in the way of resources. I'm not saying that the Ohio Department of Education doesn't fulfill some useful purposes. But, as finnOhio says if you are closer to the problem you probably have a better idea how to fix. Well, he didn't actually say that, but I think it's a logical paraphrase of his overall line of thinking. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

JSF
General User

Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,338

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 5:30:37 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

JSF wrote:

The funny thing is that CC was created by states, even though most people like to point the finger at the federal government. To go even further, the Every Student Succeeds Act specifically made the government neutral on CC; under No Child Left Behind, the feds tied some funds to adopting CC standards. So it's entirely up to the states to adopt (or no adopt) CC.

akroncat
General User

Member Since: 7/23/2010
Location: Akron, OH
Post Count: 189

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 8:47:38 PM

I always seem to jump into these small school discussions since I was one of 29 to graduate in 1967. Today the school graduates between 30 and 40. What people miss when they preach consolidation is that these small communities totally revolve around the school. My small western Ohio town has some of the highest graduation rates and no they don't have all of many AP courses. Lots of students go to vocational school and not college, but this school makes the community complete. The cost per pupil is much less than the rest of Ohio and they have minimal administration. Yes, everyone is white and almost everyone is Catholic so it is a very homogeneous area. All of Western Ohio north of Dayton is this way. In the 60's they fought consolation with all they had and all schools in Shelby County are high quality. You do not need large schools to be effective and to get a high quality education. This is a big city myth and also liberal desire to control education.

BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

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RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 9:26:06 PM

akroncat wrote:

They do revolve around your school, and the county I referenced has two schools with similar numbers as Ohio spent $28 Million on new schools, that is a total waste.

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 9:27:37 PM

akroncat wrote:

What high school?

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: Budget cuts

Posted: 5/9/2019 9:28:18 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

Exactly my point!!!!! And the two smallest schools have had $28 Million spent on new schools, they both have a $90-100k Superintendent, 2-3 principals and other middle management. An amazing waste of money. It�s a sham!

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