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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/19/2017 3:14:17 PM 
I think it's unquestionable that the ratings are down. However, they were down last year as well. It's hard to parse out why they're down overall. I do believe that the political viewpoints have had some impact on the ratings, but it's hard to tell how much. I rarely watch the NFL anymore, something that started about two years ago. It had nothing to do with politics. I felt the overall product wasn't what I used to love. Is it the rule changes that turned me away? Was it another study on CTE? Was it the lack of superstar rivalries? Was it that my Buffalo Bills continue to be atrocious?

I just think it's too convenient to assume the drop is solely based on politics. If it is, those fans will be back. They're making their short statement, but they'll return. If it's about the quality of the game or the violence, those are the things that could keep fans from returning.

I won't ever be able to understand how something that happens before the game in a portion in which fans rarely paid attention to would affect their viewership.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/19/2017 5:10:56 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, sure, it played out predictably. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
...

The only thing I find ridiculous is that anyone thought this was in any way constructive. There is an old saying, with many forms, one of which is "don't poop in your own bed". Well, the NFL players deliberately chose to poop in their own bed, and now they will get to sleep in it. I don't want to hear them complain about the foreseeable consequences of their own choices (but of course I will).

There were constructive things they could have done, but those would have taken more effort. As one example, they could have created a charitable organization to provide support to the families of people who were killed by police. That would have been off the field, so there would have been no backlash. It would also have put the focus where they intended it, rather than on themselves.

Oh, and while I didn't mention revenue from sales of licensed items, I would expect that revenue to be down significantly as well.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/20/2017 2:56:06 AM 
You should read about the constructive things these players are doing off the field. Then come back and apologize for the sanctimonious lecture.

We are truly a nation of whiny, entitled, self-centered babies. Some football players had a political opinion. And now 60 some odd percent of the country is finding glee in their being punished for it.

All based on ridiculous notions of what it is to support our troops. Anybody here just as preachy and angry about Trump's treatment of the military today? Gonna boycott his business holdings because he can't stop publicly attacking gold star families? Or because he claims POWs aren't heroes because they were captured?

Of course not. Because we support the troops when it's politically convenient to do so.

Last Edited: 10/20/2017 1:05:04 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/20/2017 9:03:15 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, sure, it played out predictably. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
...

The only thing I find ridiculous is that anyone thought this was in any way constructive. There is an old saying, with many forms, one of which is "don't poop in your own bed". Well, the NFL players deliberately chose to poop in their own bed, and now they will get to sleep in it. I don't want to hear them complain about the foreseeable consequences of their own choices (but of course I will).

There were constructive things they could have done, but those would have taken more effort. As one example, they could have created a charitable organization to provide support to the families of people who were killed by police. That would have been off the field, so there would have been no backlash. It would also have put the focus where they intended it, rather than on themselves.

Oh, and while I didn't mention revenue from sales of licensed items, I would expect that revenue to be down significantly as well.


BLSS beat me to it, but I have to say your comment makes it sound like none of the NFL players are doing any of those things that "would have taken more effort." In fact we've discussed many of their efforts right here on this thread. It's convenient to ignore all of those activities.

Also, I don't buy the "this isn't a constructive way to protest" argument. From the posts I've seen here, and the reaction of many all across the country, I can confidently say that no matter how these players chose to make their protest known there would have been a very loud contingent of white Americans who feel put upon and would've been shouting "THIS ISN'T THE PROPER FORUM" at the top of their lungs. Critiquing the method of protest is more important to many than the actual underlying social problems themselves. And that's the gist of it. You and I have been afforded a great amount of privilege to be able to say "don't poop in your own bed" and scoff at what these players are doing. Black Americans haven't really been given a choice. Most don't have a platform to speak out against very real injustices that they still face. These players are some of the few that have been given a platform and I'm glad they're using it. If it hurts NFL ratings a bit in the short term, well that sucks for the NFL -- but any long term ratings issues are not because of these protests. We've discussed here that ratings are down for ALL major sports and the NFL is still the king of the hill. I guarantee you that my racist uncle will get tired of arguing about this crap and go right back to watching the NFL and using the anthem time as a chance to take a pee and grab another beer. He doesn't have anything better to do on a Sunday afternoon.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/20/2017 9:53:33 AM 
L.C. wrote:

Oh, and while I didn't mention revenue from sales of licensed items, I would expect that revenue to be down significantly as well.


Not for some items.

https://www.salon.com/2017/09/22/colin-kaepernicks-jersey... /
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/20/2017 1:21:08 PM 
Here's what we know about what happened in Niger:

About 12 Green Beret's were sent into a known ISIS hotspot in Niger near the border of Mali. There was no US air support, instead support was provided by France, though the French army did not have the authorization to fire their weapons, so their support was essentially meaningless. Intelligence suggested the Green Berets would face no hostility, and sent them without armed vehicles, in pick up trucks. They drove into an ISIS ambush.

French forces -- who were not authorized to intervene -- didn't arrive for 30 minutes. A rescue helicopter arrived after that. It was not US Military, but instead was a private contractor. The private contractor loaded injured and dead troops for evacuation, but failed to perform a headcount. They left Sergeant La David Johnson behind. His locator beacon was activated after the rescue chopper left, meaning he was still alive when the helicopter left.

His body was mutilated by ISIS.

Trump did not address this for 14 days. When the bodies arrived at Dover, he was golfing. The President told his widow that he "knew what he signed up for." When criticized for his response, he attacked a Florida Congresswoman who was close to Johnson's family and widow. He has attacked her again this morning. He called her a liar and said he had proof. His Chief of Staff, the next day, confirmed in a press conference that she was not lying. Trump then, today, accused her of lying despite the confirmation Kelly provided yesterday.

Look at how those troops were supported. Look at how Trump lashes out at the mere idea that he might not have handled the situation well.

Now for all of the people who were so intent on supporting the troops when NFL players knealt quietly during the national anthem, I ask you: where's your support for the troops now? Where's your anger?

Last Edited: 10/20/2017 1:23:35 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/21/2017 11:08:01 PM 
I'm kneeling at 1:00 tomorrow, because the director of parking services has resigned! Be grateful.
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OrlandoCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/23/2017 12:04:40 AM 
L.C. wrote:
L.C. wrote:
...One plausible path that we could go from here is to see dramatically more players doing this, and some fans doing it as well, followed by and even more dramatic drop in attendance and viewership, and a huge decrease in NFL revenues. Since many of the costs of an NFL franchise are fixed, that in turn would likely lead to a huge drop in the size of player contracts,...

Things seem to be progressing about as I expected. Attendance is down, ratings are down. Discussion of the appropriateness of actions by the police seems to have vanished, and been replaced by discussions of pro football and politics. It will be interesting to see, come free agent signing time, and come draft time, just how much smaller contracts are.

As a believer in the free market, it's always interesting to see how closely it behaves compared to what you'd expect.


The decline in NFL ratings and revenue has been going on for over a decade - Millennials, as a generation, don't buy large cable packages, and don't sit around watching sports.

There have also been several natural disasters that have displaced millions of people in football heavy areas.

Two football teams left markets where they were liked for a market that doesn't care about them.

Just because you decided to start looking at ratings now, and they're down, doesn't mean the free market decided protests are bad - nor does it make them the sole, main, or otherwise driving factor.
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/23/2017 10:44:07 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, sure, it played out predictably. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
...


There were constructive things they could have done, but those would have taken more effort. As one example, they could have created a charitable organization to provide support to the families of people who were killed by police. That would have been off the field, so there would have been no backlash. It would also have put the focus where they intended it, rather than on themselves.

Oh, and while I didn't mention revenue from sales of licensed items, I would expect that revenue to be down significantly as well.


Things more constructive they could've done...hmmm...like put their money where their mouth is. C'mon, Colin Kaepernick: https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/6/3/15735060/colin-k...

Oh, but really, how 'bout Martellus and Michael Bennett? They're always running their mouths. Oh...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bennett-brothers-out... and regarding the revenues from sales of licensed items: http://www.konbini.com/us/lifestyle/nfl-star-michael-benn... /

But what about Chris Long, the first white player to show support for the protests...http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/chris-long-philadelphia-e... what is he choosing to do? Oh, really, donate his ENTIRE salary? https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/chris-longs-2017-game-... /

I guess I'm lost on which players you're referring to. Who isn't doing the things that you assume 'would take more effort'?

People are not one-dimensional. People complain that Gregg Popovich should spend his time coaching, not complaining about the POTUS, as though the two are all-consuming. Players, they say, should do things off the field and not protest before the game (which brings far more attention, both positive and negative, to their concerns).

It's not like these people have a hard job like being the President, which must consume every waking moment of your life, leaving no time for anything else.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/23/2017 11:11:32 AM 
finnOhio wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, sure, it played out predictably. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
...


There were constructive things they could have done, but those would have taken more effort. As one example, they could have created a charitable organization to provide support to the families of people who were killed by police. That would have been off the field, so there would have been no backlash. It would also have put the focus where they intended it, rather than on themselves.

Oh, and while I didn't mention revenue from sales of licensed items, I would expect that revenue to be down significantly as well.


Things more constructive they could've done...hmmm...like put their money where their mouth is. C'mon, Colin Kaepernick: https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/6/3/15735060/colin-k...

Oh, but really, how 'bout Martellus and Michael Bennett? They're always running their mouths. Oh...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bennett-brothers-out... and regarding the revenues from sales of licensed items: http://www.konbini.com/us/lifestyle/nfl-star-michael-benn... /

But what about Chris Long, the first white player to show support for the protests...http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/chris-long-philadelphia-e... what is he choosing to do? Oh, really, donate his ENTIRE salary? https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/chris-longs-2017-game-... /

I guess I'm lost on which players you're referring to. Who isn't doing the things that you assume 'would take more effort'?

People are not one-dimensional. People complain that Gregg Popovich should spend his time coaching, not complaining about the POTUS, as though the two are all-consuming. Players, they say, should do things off the field and not protest before the game (which brings far more attention, both positive and negative, to their concerns).

It's not like these people have a hard job like being the President, which must consume every waking moment of your life, leaving no time for anything else.


BANG!!!! What a big time post!
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/25/2017 8:22:50 AM 
Just a populist crusader helping out the little man: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-senate-banks-cr...
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/25/2017 11:52:09 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Just a populist crusader helping out the little man: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-senate-banks-cr...


Yep, just protected all those people who were victims of fraud by Wells Fargo. Thanks to this populist movement, can now not seek compensation or recourse against the corporate criminals.

However, someone will gladly justify for us, how this is a good thing!
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/25/2017 4:10:23 PM 
It's good for those on Wall St., therefore it's good for those of us on Main St.

Not unlike how huge tax cuts for big corporations and the top 1% will trickle down and benefit you and me.

Last Edited: 10/25/2017 4:11:21 PM by bobcatsquared

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/25/2017 4:55:47 PM 
Here's what you can do to help relieve the pain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_eOMyhtms
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/25/2017 10:48:25 PM 
Another rousing defense of policy.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 8:50:35 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


About as compelling as throwing a "liddle" daily Twitter tantrum.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 11:34:42 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


Best he can come up with when you try and defend the indefensible.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 12:00:26 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


Best he can come up with when you try and defend the indefensible.


Eh, I'm just giving him a hard time.

There are a lot of Republican voters these days whose allegiance to the Republican party has little to do with policy, and everything to do with the fact that the Republicans are just not liberals. I get it, sort of. Liberals are plenty annoying, myself included.

But that's particularly glaring now that Trump's in power, and it's fun to point out that many of the ways they used to justify their support for Trump are no longer valid. I mean, the Trump of the campaign trail was a blustering idiot, but at least he was a blustering idiot that blustered idiotically about how much he would get done, how decisive he was going to be, and how he was going negotiate the best deals for Americans. The Trump that's President on the other hand is a weak, ineffectual demagogue who has dragged American institutions and conservative principles through the mud.

He's proven a completely ineffectual governor, blames congress for his ineffectiveness, and then hands over every major policy decision to. . .congress. He promised an Obamacare replacement on Day 1. Turns out, he not only didn't have an ACA replacement on Day 1, but he also lacked a basic understand of healthcare policy and instead just handed the process over to congressional republicans who put forth two atrociously bad bills that basically nobody in the country supported for any other reason than "Obama's bad."

He's a president who knows nothing about policy, and proposes no actual legislation. Fundamentally no president can set a national agenda without policy, and so, we just find ourself with a President who hands the actual act of governing to congress and spends his time attacking NFL players, the free press, and holiday greetings on Twitter.

And so long as he keeps signaling his base on culture war issues, they don't care that he can't govern or enact policy that helps them. They'll happily let him increase their insurance premiums by 25%, remove consumer protections, and question -- over and over -- the usefulness of the first amendment so long as he agrees with them that Colin Kaepernick's upsetting.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 12:04:59 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


Best he can come up with when you try and defend the indefensible.


Eh, I'm just giving him a hard time.

There are a lot of Republican voters these days whose allegiance to the Republican party has little to do with policy, and everything to do with the fact that the Republicans are just not liberals. I get it, sort of. Liberals are plenty annoying, myself included.

But that's particularly glaring now that Trump's in power, and it's fun to point out that many of the ways they used to justify their support for Trump are no longer valid. I mean, the Trump of the campaign trail was a blustering idiot, but at least he was a blustering idiot that blustered idiotically about how much he would get done, how decisive he was going to be, and how he was going negotiate the best deals for Americans. The Trump that's President on the other hand is a weak, ineffectual demagogue who has dragged American institutions and conservative principles through the mud.

He's proven a completely ineffectual governor, blames congress for his ineffectiveness, and then hands over every major policy decision to. . .congress. He promised an Obamacare replacement on Day 1. Turns out, he not only didn't have an ACA replacement on Day 1, but he also lacked a basic understand of healthcare policy and instead just handed the process over to congressional republicans who put forth two atrociously bad bills that basically nobody in the country supported for any other reason than "Obama's bad."

He's a president who knows nothing about policy, and proposes no actual legislation. Fundamentally no president can set a national agenda without policy, and so, we just find ourself with a President who hands the actual act of governing to congress and spends his time attacking NFL players, the free press, and holiday greetings on Twitter.

And so long as he keeps signaling his base on culture war issues, they don't care that he can't govern or enact policy that helps them. They'll happily let him increase their insurance premiums by 25%, remove consumer protections, and question -- over and over -- the usefulness of the first amendment so long as he agrees with them that Colin Kaepernick's upsetting.



Yep!
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 3:18:45 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


Best he can come up with when you try and defend the indefensible.


Eh, I'm just giving him a hard time.

There are a lot of Republican voters these days whose allegiance to the Republican party has little to do with policy, and everything to do with the fact that the Republicans are just not liberals. I get it, sort of. Liberals are plenty annoying, myself included.

But that's particularly glaring now that Trump's in power, and it's fun to point out that many of the ways they used to justify their support for Trump are no longer valid. I mean, the Trump of the campaign trail was a blustering idiot, but at least he was a blustering idiot that blustered idiotically about how much he would get done, how decisive he was going to be, and how he was going negotiate the best deals for Americans. The Trump that's President on the other hand is a weak, ineffectual demagogue who has dragged American institutions and conservative principles through the mud.

He's proven a completely ineffectual governor, blames congress for his ineffectiveness, and then hands over every major policy decision to. . .congress. He promised an Obamacare replacement on Day 1. Turns out, he not only didn't have an ACA replacement on Day 1, but he also lacked a basic understand of healthcare policy and instead just handed the process over to congressional republicans who put forth two atrociously bad bills that basically nobody in the country supported for any other reason than "Obama's bad."

He's a president who knows nothing about policy, and proposes no actual legislation. Fundamentally no president can set a national agenda without policy, and so, we just find ourself with a President who hands the actual act of governing to congress and spends his time attacking NFL players, the free press, and holiday greetings on Twitter.

And so long as he keeps signaling his base on culture war issues, they don't care that he can't govern or enact policy that helps them. They'll happily let him increase their insurance premiums by 25%, remove consumer protections, and question -- over and over -- the usefulness of the first amendment so long as he agrees with them that Colin Kaepernick's upsetting.



Boom.

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That one crazy fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/26/2017 11:32:16 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Another rousing defense of policy.


Best he can come up with when you try and defend the indefensible.


He's a president who knows nothing about policy, and proposes no actual legislation. Fundamentally no president can set a national agenda without policy, and so, we just find ourself with a President who hands the actual act of governing to congress and spends his time attacking NFL players, the free press, and holiday greetings on Twitter.



You left out spending almost every weekend at one of his golf resorts


The opposing team sucks!

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/29/2017 11:25:19 AM 
Tomorrow's going to be a fun day for Patriotism. The first charges have been filed in Mueller's investigation, and smart bets suggest that either Paul Manafort or Michael Flynn will be arrested Monday.

The charges could be any of a number of things, so this doesn't necessarily prove Russian collusion of any sort, but it'll be fun watching a President who insists black folks that protest police brutality are un-American pretend the Chairman of his campaign's a stranger who he barely knows once it's revealed that he's guilty of laundering 60 million in Russian payments and just happened to be working for Trump pro-bono.

Of course, nothing will actually change because nothing matters anymore. Republicans will eat up whatever garbage Trump serves them and we'll hear nothing from them except how this is somehow about Hillary, and we'll find out that Mueller -- a lifelong Republican appointed by GWB -- is somehow compromised, or part of the deep state, and needs to be replaced.

Party over country forever. Starting tomorrow, 75% of Republicans will begin to earnestly believe that Clinton colluded with Russia to hack her own campaigns emails or whatever the logic is there. And the other 25% will figure out a reason not to have an opinion. And why? Because the alternative is acknowledging that they were wrong about a megalomaniac reality show star as best pick for President.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/29/2017 11:29:54 AM 
By the way -- another round of White Nationalist marches yesterday, this time in Tennessee. A mixed race couple was beaten by the crowd.

One good thing about Trump though, is since he spends so much of his time concerning himself with protests, he'll definitely tweet about this. I mean, he's tweeted 75 times about NFL players and how unpatriotic they are. Certainly he'll do the same about literal Nazis, right?

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That one crazy fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/29/2017 9:49:51 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

One good thing about Trump though, is since he spends so much of his time concerning himself with protests, he'll definitely tweet about this. I mean, he's tweeted 75 times about NFL players and how unpatriotic they are. Certainly he'll do the same about literal Nazis, right?



You forget, there are "good people" that rally with them as well...despite the fact that the people who organize these marches are calling for ethnic cleansing and throw Nazi salutes at synagogues...but don't forget about the nice people who rally with them (that apparently don't have a problem with it because they wouldn't otherwise).


The opposing team sucks!

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 10/30/2017 10:43:33 AM 
Trump's campaign manager is going to prison for tax evasion, money laundering, and secretly working as a foreign agent.

And one of Trump's foreign policy advisors pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI about meetings with Russians about the campaign. He told the FBI that he met with them before he was involved with the campaign, which turned out to be a lie, and that the people he met with were "nobodies" with "no real influence" which also turned out to be a lie. In fact, that person introduced him to Putin's niece.

But the real mark of a patriot is what they do during the national anthem at a football game.

Last Edited: 10/30/2017 10:51:42 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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