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Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 9/25/2017 11:43:39 AM

Here's an interesting article and a pretty damning indictment about how chasing USNWR rankings leads to rigging the game in selecting students from higher family incomes.

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/top-college-ra... /

Ohio and OSU have a fair amount of income diversity among their student body. Miami? Uhhhhh, not so much. Another reason why I really have no respect for that place. A safety school, finishing school and insular bubble for a bunch of rich kids who--relative to their family resources--underachieved in HS. Whatever Ohio's struggles are--and I've been fairly harsh in my discussion of them--I'd send a kid to Ohio over Miami every day and any day.

Last Edited: 9/25/2017 11:50:02 AM by OUPride

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 9/27/2017 9:25:39 AM

OSU may have just changed the recruitment game in Ohio. They'll now cover any gap in financial aid, making OSU tuition free for students who qualify for Pell Grants (currently family income <$55K). It'll be interesting to see how this affects other Ohio schools who might have benefited from lower income students choosing to stay closer to home, rather than go to OSU, due to affordability issues.

I doubt it affects Miami too much since their bread & butter these days is trolling the Chicago suburbs for upper middle class kids who were rejected by Big Ten schools. It might have a significant impact on UC, UT and Ohio though who might see some freshman from the upper quarter of their classes being lured to Columbus if they qualify for this program.

Last Edited: 9/27/2017 9:30:42 AM by OUPride

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 9/28/2017 4:14:46 PM

Ohio is giving a scholarship for covering full tuition for any in-state resident with an ACT of 30. OSUs average ACT score was 29 last year so Im not sure how many students in the 27-29 range with the profile to be accepted to OSU from famlies making under 55k are out there. I see this more as a gesture to make attending OSU more affordable for the students already there. More money is made on Room, Board and fees than tuition these days at the public universities.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 9/29/2017 9:29:10 AM

I think you're right. The number in the article said 3500 current OSU students would be eligible, which indicates that most OSU Pell Grant recipients are already having their full tuition taken care of through other merit and need based aid.

That's a lot of nice publicity for $11M/year. I wonder what the numbers would be like for Ohio to institute a similar program.

DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 10/2/2017 12:12:12 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

Serious question. Both Akron and Kent distributed similar press releases in the past week, with emphasis on the record-breaking academic character of their freshman classes. If there isn't some level of grade inflation at play here, where, may I ask, are all the lower performing high school grads going to college? (If not Akron?!)

That sir is an excellent question!

Shawnee State, Youngstown State, Toledo, BGSU, Cleveland State, Wright State.

But Akron is still a safety school. They did see their highest average ACT score and GPA this year but aside from a small increase this year they've seen declining enrollment for awhile.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 10/3/2017 8:45:57 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

That sir is an excellent question!

I don't have a problem with safety schools. Ohio needs safety schools. The problem in Ohio is that the safety-school campuses have long thought that they could turn themselves into OSU if they stacked on enough unnecessary graduate programs. And that has hurt Ohio University by diluting funding and creating the mentality among many Ohioans that "all state schools are the same."

Besides, outside of about 8 schools, every university has a large portion of kids for whom they were a safety choice.

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 10/3/2017 11:24:12 AM

OUPride wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

That sir is an excellent question!

I don't disagree. In my mind OSU is (however reluctant I am to acknowledge it) the flagship. Miami obviously fills a very specific niche as an undergraduate centered university for a very specific (rich, white, over-privileged, under-performing) demographic. Then you have OU and UC, which are the selective regional universities (UC for southwest and western Ohio and OHIO for central, southeast, and northeast Ohio). Everybody else (looking at you Akron, BGSU, Kent, and Toledo) should take a back seat and know their role.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 10/3/2017 10:08:56 PM

Without being overtly political about the Ohio Department of Higher Education is regulating by funding with it tied to outcomes (amount of Ohio residents graduating). The lower tier HS grads are divided up evenly among the safety schools with none of them much of a draw outside of a 30-40 mile radius.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 10/4/2017 10:00:50 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

OUPride wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

SBH wrote:

That sir is an excellent question!

Love your description of "Mother Miami." An OSU admin once said to me, "we love Miami because they keep a large percentage of the state's pretentious assholes from coming here."

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/7/2017 9:26:21 PM

Limits on free speech and a new "honors" program because the regular OU courses are no longer good enough. Fast becoming a high school at this rate.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-prez-talks-budg...

Last Edited: 12/10/2017 4:22:32 PM by Campus Flow

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 8:04:17 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Limits on free speech and a new "honors" program because the regular OU courses are no longer could enough. Fast becoming a high school at this rate.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-prez-talks-budg...

Some things I picked up from the article:

1.No 110 at the Bowl Game.
Looks like they'll be doing something similar to what they did for the Potato Bowl.

2.Having a "broader honors" program for "next tier" of students sure sounds like "every kid gets a trophy".

3.A University President,especially a new one should at least give the appearance of some objectivity.
His comments about Milo Yiannopoulos's show that's not the case.

4.He is good at using P/C words/phrases like "safe and supportive environment".

Last Edited: 12/8/2017 8:04:51 AM by rpbobcat

C Money
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 8:35:26 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

2.Having a "broader honors" program for "next tier" of students sure sounds like "every kid gets a trophy".

Aren't there already college-level honors programs that fill that gap?
https://business.ohio.edu/academics/selective-programs/ho... /

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 10:13:33 AM

rpbobcat: I agree with your points 2, 3 and 4. I also fear that he is a lightweight who will not take a stand on principle if it goes against the prevailing winds of academe. How he handles free speech issues will tell the tale, and so far he�s flunking that test in my book. Here�s what he should be saying:

https://provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/document...

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 11:24:32 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Would you rather victims of sexual assault have an unsafe and unsupportive environment? I'm not sure what is wrong with his statement. Also, what is your issue with his comments on Milo?

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 11:57:04 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Would you rather victims of sexual assault have an unsafe and unsupportive environment? I'm not sure what is wrong with his statement. Also, what is your issue with his comments on Milo?

I never said I disagreed with his intent.
I just said he's good at using P/C language.

His comments on Milo show bias.
He is entitled to that position as an individual.
As the face of a university,he should some semblance of objectivity.

The link in OCF's post from the University of Chicago shows how the issue of free speech on a college campus should be presented.

DelBobcat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/8/2017 12:40:27 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Would you rather victims of sexual assault have an unsafe and unsupportive environment? I'm not sure what is wrong with his statement. Also, what is your issue with his comments on Milo?

I'm just not sure how you can express that statement without using what you call "P/C" language.

As for Milo, he's a disgusting human being who has no problem with child sexual abuse and has connections to avowed white supremacists. In what way should Nellis be more objective? Objectively, everyone should be disgusted by Milo whether you happen to agree with him on political issues or not.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/10/2017 11:05:41 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I won't get into the political stuff other than to say that I tend to lean in OCF's Chicago model but also don't have a problem drawing a line at actual Nazis.

I definitely agree with yours and OCF's comments on the "honors program lite." It does reek of everyone gets a trophy, and I fail to see how it is going to aid in the competition for students with Miami and OSU. Are kids who don't make the OSU honors program really going to come to Ohio for HP-Lite? I'm skeptical. And that would really be the target, as others have mentioned Miami largely attracts a certain "type" who really won't be interested in Ohio whether invited into HP-Lite or not. What Ohio needs to do is tout the uniqueness of the HTC and expand its enrollment by recruiting more students who qualify for it.

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/10/2017 1:27:56 PM

OUPride wrote:

I won't get into the political stuff other than to say that I tend to lean in OCF's Chicago model but also don't have a problem drawing a line at actual Nazis. . . .

Nazis and the KKK have First Amendment rights, too.

See this discussion of two Supreme Court cases ruling thus:

https://tinyurl.com/ybjjjapw

A Key Quotes from the above:

The Court unanimously agreed with Brandenburg and struck down the Educating Young People about the Constitution Ohio law as unconstitutional. Interpreting the First Amendment, the Court reasoned that government cannot punish speech unless it meets two criteria: first, if it is “directed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action,” and second, if it is “likely to incite or produce such action.”

The salient concept here is the one of "imminent lawless action." The Court later expanded on this idea by saying that speaking about overthrowing the government as an abstract principle was protected. It was only when the speech was directed at taking immediate action to those ends that the First Amendment could be abridged.

Another quote from the article that summarizes the basic underlying premise of the First Amendment very well:

American writer Noam Chomsky said “If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”

Last Edited: 12/10/2017 1:35:02 PM by OhioCatFan

DelBobcat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/11/2017 1:09:25 PM

I'm not sure why we're having this discussion. Nellis never said he wanted to stop anyone from speaking. Here is the exact quote:

"If we have a policy, period, there are going to be some groups that are going to be upset with that, but we need to have some guiding principals relative to free speech, while recognizing that in no way do we want to (curtail) free speech; we want to encourage opportunities for free speech,� Nellis said. �We�re a public university� I�ve had students that say well, you shouldn�t allow x, y or z (person) on campus to speak. I can�t do that.

�If they (speakers) register through the normal process, and it�s part of our normal policies, just because we don�t agree with their political views we can�t necessarily say no,� Nellis added."

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OhioCatFan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/11/2017 1:20:52 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

He was presented with the Chicago statement. Perhaps he read it, and understood it. That would be a positive sign. However, we are still awaiting the final policy and a formal rejection of the interim policy.

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/11/2017 7:28:09 PM

Number of administrators at OU has increased from 0.4 per faculty member in 1974-75 to 1.2 per faculty member in 2015-16. About 1,500 administrators now on campus.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/has-administrator-...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OhioCatFan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/11/2017 8:56:01 PM

Wes, does this include the medical school? To be a fair comparison, it should exclude the medical school as the admin/faculty ratio in medical schools is always much greater than that of its parent university. The medical school was founded in 1975, so it's interesting that that year is being used as the starting point for the comparison. Remember the old statement: statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics.

The Optimist
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/12/2017 9:45:02 AM

It is mind-blowing to me that people WANT to stop people who they disagree with from speaking.

I want to hear what morons think, that way I know they are a moron. If a moron is prevented from speaking and keeps their mouth shut, I'll have no way of ever knowing their crazy views in the first place and just go along assuming they have some level of intelligence and basic human decency.

If you're considered about the influence these people can have on others, my suggestion would be to encourage the teaching of critical thinking skills so the masses are able to evaluate the flaws in others arguments.

I've seen crazier things happen.

ts1227
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/12/2017 10:31:31 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

Maybe I�m off on my own tangent here, but I didn�t think this free speech policy was ever about the external entities speaking. This was snuck in place because our sour grapes police chief was pissed that he lost on the Baker Center protest mess, so he worked over the new guy to pull a fast one while no one was around to notice.

Since Chief thinks he has to police the hell out of everything whether it needs it or not, the old policy that didn�t require reservations, but did indicate 20-some �reservable spaces� didn�t cut it (the only times reservations mattered were if there were 2 groups in one place, the one who reserved it gets the spot).

BillyTheCat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 12/12/2017 11:51:37 AM

ts1227 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

BINGO!!!! Winner Winner!!!!

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