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Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

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DelBobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 12:09:41 PM

The Optimist wrote:

"Coastal Elite" is a media term. It's a media term I've happily adapted using after growing up in Northeast Ohio listening to people on TV talk about how the "Rust Belt" and the Midwest in general is such a terrible, dirty place filled with uneducated people. Going to school in Appalachia further reinforced just how negatively a good chunk of society looks at where I choose to call home.

Ohio69 wrote:

I do not live on a coast (although I once did), nor am I elite. But, I know many who fit the description. And, all of them took life seriously early on, did well in school, busted ass work-wise, and ended up fairly successful. What's not to like about those people again? Seems to me we need way more of those types around here in opiod land. But, we digress....

I know a lot of smart people who have never touched opioids, who have busted ass in their careers and have made a life for themselves and their families. Funny story, they don't live on the coasts, they live in what you describe as "opiod land."
I know a lot of extremely successful people in Middle America who view speaking in "Clintonesque parsing" as a way for people to sound smart without actually having practical knowledge.

While not everyone from California looks down on Middle America, a very good percentage of the people on the coasts have bought up the media's narrative about how terrible this part of the country is.

...

I'm a hard working 27-year old who works for a tech company. No, I don't work in the Silicon Valley. I'm just a kid from Akron and I'm very happy with Ohio's current mix of hard-working kids from the Midwest with a smaller mix of national and internal students. I have ZERO interest in this University turning into an enclave for elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of. I feel like you've never actually talked to someone who lives on the coasts. I've lived here for a decade and when I tell people I'm from Ohio I hear the following:

*The Hocking Hills are beautiful
*Athens is a great college town
*Cincinnati has a great beer scene (but why is the airport in KY?)
*Cleveland is underrated
*Cbus is a cool, progressive town
*Cedar Point is awesome!

I have literally NEVER heard anyone have a negative reaction or bring up opoids (newsflash, they're a problem everywhere--not just the Midwest). I have met some amazing people out here, including many OHIO grads, that are successful and bright and have nothing but nice things to say about Ohio. I'll actually be moving back to Ohio next month. I hope everyone there doesn't hate me because I'm a coastal elite now.

Last Edited: 8/18/2017 12:10:28 PM by DelBobcat

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 12:24:54 PM

When I was in the Navy I had a chief petty officer from Connecticut whose nickname for me was "Midwest Puke," because I was from Ohio. I'm not saying that's a typical East Coast attitude, but I will say this kind of attitude toward people on the other side of the Alleghenies does represent the feelings of a portion of the East Coast population.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 2,992

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 12:40:16 PM

Note to self: Add coastal elites and opioids to trigger words list....

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

mf279801
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,452

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 1:35:05 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

Note to self: Add coastal elites and opioids to trigger words list....

Earmuffs

The Optimist
General User

Member Since: 3/16/2007
Location: CLE
Post Count: 5,552

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 3:41:55 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

Except now you reply to my reply against a broad brush term (coastal elites) with several broad brushes or your own and a mythical creature: elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

That was the point.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

I've been to every state on the East Coast with the exception of, coincidentally, Delaware. I've been to California and to a couple foreign countries and the nature of my work has me communicating daily with people from every corner of the globe.

I'm happy that I get exposure to a diverse set of people. It has helped me in a lot of different areas of my life.

What I find extremely troubling is the media narrative about all the people from my area who haven't seen as much of the outside world. I don't believe that preferring to live a "local" life over a "global" life makes you a bad person. I also don't believe it makes you uneducated which means I certainly don't believe that Ohio University continuing to attract students who have demonstrated success in academics without the GPA or test scores to qualify as "elite" is something we should be looking to change.

As great as my education in the classroom at Ohio University was, I found equal value outside the classroom. There was an ideal mix of intelligence from diverse backgrounds that provided me with the ability to understand and relate to people in the real world.

I've seen crazier things happen.

cbus cat fan
General User

Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 8:45:26 PM

The funny thing about the "Coastal Elite" terminology is that it exists in many western countries just in different forms. For example, greater London still can't figure out why so many in northern and eastern England were for Brexit (both Conservative and Labour party voters.) The solution to these elites; the other people are ignorant or even bigoted.

The same is true in Germany; the powers that be in Berlin will never figure out people from Bavaria and the Rhineland. Once again they must be ignorant or bigoted not to vote the same way as does Berlin. I have family and friends who live in Germany and England and the parallels are amazing.

I don't have family in France, but history tells us that the people of Vendee stood up to the horrific guillotine happy forces of the Reign of Terror shortly after the storming of the Bastille. They valued their religious faith and died defending it. Naturally today it is France's most conservative region who doesn't vote Socialist and of course is labeled by the French press as ignorant and bigoted.

There was a time in the western world that if you lived in a rural area or small town, the powers that be viewed you as quaint and with a certain amount of affection. I remember working in our nation's capital after graduate school and almost everyone I met seem to have a warm fuzzy feeling about Ohio. Many subtly thought they were smarter and more worldly than those in the Heartland, but they held Ohio and the rest of the Midwest with a certain amount of affection. Sadly it isn't as it once was and it is not limited to the Heartland. I was talking to someone recently who said a relative in Staten Island felt they might as well have been from Mississippi by the way some treated them at work in Manhattan. Perhaps this will soon pass from our midst; I certainly hope so for it's end can't come soon enough.

Last Edited: 8/18/2017 8:46:19 PM by cbus cat fan

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/18/2017 10:15:51 PM

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

If that isn't an elitist statement, I don't know what is. Again, what school in Akron did you graduate from? Coming from someone who did graduate from an Akron high school, it would help me a bit better understand your point of view.

Last Edited: 8/18/2017 10:17:22 PM by Alan Swank

DelBobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/19/2017 9:44:04 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

Yea, it seems like the only elitist here is Optimist.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OUPride
General User

Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/19/2017 11:30:08 AM

DelBobcat wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

Yea, it seems like the only elitist here is Optimist.

And of course the great irony, as someone else discovered in the source document, is that Ohio under McDavis steadily increased the percentage of kids from families with incomes over 100K without seeing any corresponding improvement in achievement. So Ohio under McDavis did see a move towards taking more kids from the economic elite but not the academic elite. Or to put it in Akron terms, Ohio is taking more 24 ACT kids from Firestone while missing out on the 29 ACT kids from Copley. And that is his failure in a nutshell.

Last Edited: 8/19/2017 11:34:28 AM by OUPride

Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/19/2017 12:07:01 PM

The better analogy would have been between Firestone and East. Copley is a suburban school.

cbus cat fan
General User

Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/19/2017 1:37:26 PM

Keep in mind that shifting demographics and the onset of the state voucher program have made some of this data a little irrelevant. For example, while the percentage of white students going to private and Catholic schools have gone down the number of African-American and Hispanic students have gone up due to the various state voucher programs. Take any familiar school (Like Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary) in any Ohio metro area and you will find students who attend because of the various state programs (in Akron St. Vincent-St. Mary's case they students come from all over Akron.)

The classic example is Columbus who had twice as many students in the Columbus public system at it's peak in 1972 than it does now. In 1972 Columbus public schools had 110,000 students compared to the 55,000 they have now, even though Columbus has about 300,000 more residents than they did in 1972. Back then the city's private schools were overwhelmingly white, which is not the case today.

Last Edited: 8/19/2017 1:39:44 PM by cbus cat fan

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/19/2017 2:23:57 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Depends on how you define "overwhelmingly."

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/22/2017 11:07:30 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

+1

Excellent points. Nice international perspective here. You're right that this isn't just an American issue. It's worldwide. When I've traveled aboard I've made it a point to talk with folks in major cities as well as in rural and more remote areas. The difference in worldview is often quite dramatic. I remember one conversation my wife and I were having in a little restaurant in Stow-on-the-Wold in England about a U.S. political issue. We were both taking a conservative position. A couple at the table next to us interrupted our conversation to say they agreed with our position, and then they tied it in to English politics and the difference between their opinions and those of the "London Elite." We ended up having a long-winded discussion with this couple on a wide range of issues. We concluded that rural America and rural England had much in common in terms of how we viewed various political and social issues.

TheBobcatBandit
General User

Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 611

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/22/2017 11:40:10 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

How is that an elitist statement? You obviously have no idea what being an elitist means. Way to completely twist his words and take him out of context to disprove his point.

All the Optimist said was he had exposure that other people in his area didn't. That's not an elitist. To me an elitist is someone who has that exposure and somehow it makes them think they're better then everyone else.

If you don't like that definition we can use googles which says "relating or supporting the view that society should be run by elites. Which goes exactly with optimist point earlier and why he is using the term elitist I think. By raising the requirement of test score emissions, yes you're getting kids who do better in high school. The thing is though doing better in high school doesn't make you smarter than someone who doesn't do as well as you. In many cases all it means is that you tried harder. There are millions of kids out there who are super smart but just don't apply themselves in school. This could be for a number of reasons. Maybe they weren't interested in the subjects, maybe they were lazy, maybe they just wanted to socialize more or focus on sports, whatever, but the idea that beacaue they don't meet a high GPA or testing standard makes them any less smart is ridiculous. These kids who score less bring there own knowledge and expertise on many areas of life or a specialized field. By raising emissions standard you're spreading the elitist idea that only these elite people who do well in school should get a chance at college and by doing so you're ensuring that society is run by these intellectual elites. Also by doing this you're eliminating a population from the Ohio student body which bring there own unique expertise to our school. In my view this would be detrimental to the culture of our school.

In summary there are many different ways to be elite. Let's not just select those who are intellectually elite.

Robert Fox
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 9:27:28 AM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

If you don't like that definition we can use googles which says "relating or supporting the view that society should be run by elites. Which goes exactly with optimist point earlier and why he is using the term elitist I think. By raising the requirement of test score emissions, yes you're getting kids who do better in high school. The thing is though doing better in high school doesn't make you smarter than someone who doesn't do as well as you. In many cases all it means is that you tried harder. There are millions of kids out there who are super smart but just don't apply themselves in school. This could be for a number of reasons. Maybe they weren't interested in the subjects, maybe they were lazy, maybe they just wanted to socialize more or focus on sports, whatever, but the idea that beacaue they don't meet a high GPA or testing standard makes them any less smart is ridiculous. These kids who score less bring there own knowledge and expertise on many areas of life or a specialized field. By raising emissions standard you're spreading the elitist idea that only these elite people who do well in school should get a chance at college and by doing so you're ensuring that society is run by these intellectual elites. Also by doing this you're eliminating a population from the Ohio student body which bring there own unique expertise to our school. In my view this would be detrimental to the culture of our school.

In summary there are many different ways to be elite. Let's not just select those who are intellectually elite.

Huzzah!

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 10:40:51 AM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

I'm all for raising emissions standards.

DelBobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 11:25:06 AM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

But he's making a statement that others from Akron do not have the "exposure" to the outside world that he does and therefore his opinion on the issue is more valid. I think it is wrong and elitist to assume that people from Akron are not well-traveled. I know lots of intelligent, well-traveled folks from Akron.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 2,992

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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 11:53:06 AM

Boy, I sure helped turn this into a "I know you are but what am I" type thread....

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OUPride
General User

Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 2:23:04 PM

Wow, I love it how recruiting a few more 27 ACT kids at the expense of a few 21 ACT kids is going to turn Ohio into some bastion of elitism. It isn't. Plus, there'll still be the huge branch campus network for them to start out. It just means attempting to be somewhat competitive with Miami and OSU for students and staying ahead of UC while maintaining/increasing the reputation of the university in Ohio and nationally.

Or we can just give up. Throw our hands up and say those 21 ACT kids are so important that we're just going to let Ohio become and out-and-out safety school to Miami/OSU.

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 3:14:17 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

I can think of at least two - SBH and myself and we're far from elitist.

Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 2,992

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 4:40:26 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

I can think of at least two - SBH and myself and we're far from elitist.

I don't know Alan... Your drink wine.... No?.... :)

Last Edited: 8/23/2017 4:40:47 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

TheBobcatBandit
General User

Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 611

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 4:49:32 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Oh come on. Your over generalization is exactly what you're accusing others of.

...

My exposure to the "outside world" is not typical of people from my area.

Where does he say that makes his opinion more valid? You're adding that in.

TheBobcatBandit
General User

Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 611

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 4:58:20 PM

OUPride wrote:

First. I don't want to be Miami, ever.

Second, you're missing a major point I made. How does adding kids with higher ACT scores improve our reputation. As I stated earlier we're removing a population of students that add a key element to our university mix and what separates us from being a school like Miami ,who's student population acts like elitist. In addition a measure of our school should not be what comes in but rather what goes out.

Last Edited: 8/23/2017 4:59:50 PM by TheBobcatBandit

OUPride
General User

Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/23/2017 6:30:59 PM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Agree with the never want to be like Miami sentiment, nor I would I ever want to see Ohio people adopt such a comically pretentious attempt to make the school sound more elite than it ever could hope to be in real life. The kids who love everything about Miami (and buy into its self-aggrandizing myths) are going there no matter what. Even OSU isn't going to lure them away (doubt OSU wants them either). That being said, there is a percentage of kids who consider Miami every year who would fit in just fine at Ohio. Does anyone know the percentage of cross-applications between the two schools?

Output is important. And the brighter, more accomplished and more disciplined the students going in, the better your output is going to be and the more respected Ohio becomes to recruiters and graduate schools. Like it or not, but these days, a university's reputation is driven to a large degree by how hard it is to get into. It influences prospective students, parents as well as businesses and graduate schools. Ohio needs to play that game, or it needs to accept that people around Ohio are increasingly going to lump it in with Toledo, UC and KSU.

Last Edited: 8/23/2017 6:34:52 PM by OUPride

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/24/2017 12:47:06 AM

Alan Swank is a "wine snob." Does that make him an elitist? ;-)

[Ducks . . .}

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