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Topic: RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Topic: RE: Retain Coach Phillips

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 4:20:55 PM

A lot is going to depend on the next week. To be convinced there's genuine reason for optimism regarding the trajectory of the program, we'd have to win at least three games this week, in my opinion.

If we bow out against NIU, regardless of how we play, that's not good enough. If we beat NIU, and get beat by Toledo, I don't think that's good enough, either. If we beat both, that gives is a very real shot at a MAC championship game appearance, and makes Saul's case stronger. But I'm still just not quite sure it's enough.

Ultimately, if we prove we can play at the same level as the top teams in the conference when it matters most, that's a big step in the right direction. But if we don't make real noise in this tournament, I don't see how anybody can justify Saul's staying.

For me, he either needs to win the tournament or go down swinging in a competitive have against Buffalo in the championship game. Anything less just doesn't feel like enough progress to build on.

rpbobcat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 4:37:00 PM

SBH wrote:

Saul wants a raise and a minimum of three year extension. How does that sit with folks? We're not just talking about renewing him at $550k per.

Depending on how they do in the MAC,I could see a 3 year contract extension,but a only with a reasonable buyout clause.

I can't see a raise.
As I've posted before,if O.U. did consider an extension,it would be with a salary cut and heavy on incentives.

Buck.Cat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 4:59:26 PM

If you have ever been in a role where you make hires and fires, I cannot imagine the justification to extend Saul. He has not won anything at OU (translation: a MAC Championship), has contributed significantly to the degrading atmosphere of the Convo, and cannot recruit to keep up with the rest of the conference. Listen to some of those post game conferences where they end abruptly. The mood and tone tells the whole story.

greencat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 5:01:13 PM

Somebody mentioned Boals.

Boals went into South Carolina this season and beat the vaunted Frank Martin.
He makes half of what Saul makes.
His team is 24-7 and might make the big dance.

I'm in favor of going in a new direction, Boals or another.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 5:09:37 PM

I don't understand the references to "not feeling sorry for Saul." My support of Saul, and those of other supporters, has nothing to do with pity. It has to do with projecting what we think the future would hold under Saul versus some no-name replacement. I, like, Jeff have weighed the options, and feel that watching this team progress through the season with so many underclassmen and with missing Dartis and Gollon (except for his cameo return), and looking at what appears to be improved recruiting, warrants an extension. Now, if JS has That Matta waiting in the wings as our next coach, sure fire Saul and get on with it. But, unless he's got a trick up his sleeve of this magnitude, the chances of finding a better coach than Saul, I feel, is no better than a 50-50 proposition. The landscape of college basketball throughout the years is littered with coaches fired who should have been retained, and coaches who were not spectacular during their early years but grew into the job. Another poster mentioned Jim Snyder, and that might be one example, but there are literally hundreds of others. A bad hire in the replacement of Saul and we could be headed for the basketball equivalent of the Cleve-PapaL Era in football. As I mentioned in another thread, I'd fire JS before I'd fire SP.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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OhioCatFan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 5:10:37 PM

Buck.Cat wrote:

Did you listen the one after last night's game?

Campus Flow
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 7:09:25 PM

SBH wrote:

Saul wants a raise and a minimum of three year extension. How does that sit with folks? We're not just talking about renewing him at $550k per.

I can see the press release now. JS saying how the cost of inflation in Athens County this past year is up 1.0 percent and he's got kids to feed.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

randy
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 7:22:34 PM

I think spring football is around the corner hehe

Broomball @ Midnight!
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 7:24:58 PM

As others have mentions and some are putting all of their Saul eggs in this basket... March Matters.

It sure does, but so does setting yourself up for success in March.

Saul's recipe for success in March is to finish last in the division, earn a 10-seed and head out for a first round road game against a team he's already 0-2 against ... #7 NIU, a team that DID beat Buffalo.

How'd Saul do it... he battled the best in the MAC (the top 6 seeds) to a dominating 1-8 record. Thank's BG for the win. John Groce celebrated the Convo's 50th by leading his Zips to their only road win of the season.

The Best Programs in the MAC follow this recipe and it's not a new one.
20+ wins a year (hopefully with some decent non-conference games/wins)
10+ MAC wins
Host or Bye in the MAC Tournament

I thought this was our recipe at one point.

I don't think Saul is capable of that level of success in the MAC, 5-years is enough data. It's a level of success he was paid to deliver. He was also handed a program better in reality and reputation at the time he was hired than the one he's built over the last five years.

Beating Miami is always great, but it's March and neither team is very good. Poor shooting, more turnovers than assists, sloppy play... but at least both teams shot free throws well. The two interior players for Miami were a joke. One was stuck to the floor, I attribute that to gravity, and the other had the balance of a one-legged stool.

I don't accept almost beating Buffalo at the Convo as the new standard of excellence. Just like in 86, we were better than Ohio State in the NIT, except for that damn 7-footer Brad Sellers!

All the wish casting for what could have been for Saul is great. What if his limited success was just as much due to "good" luck and fortune. This can go both ways.

Good news! The next coach can be a nice person, as well, and hopefully a better MAC-level coach and recruiter.

Toledo lost the MAC POY in the tournament last year and still managed to make it to the championship game, adapted their game and had a chance against Buffalo.

I watched UNF dismiss its best player two weeks ago. It was a failed weed test, he's not an ax murderer. He probably would have been in the top 3 for ASUN POY and then they go on a winning streak where multiple freshman and fist-year players came in, filled the void, and helped to team improve from the 6 seed to the 3 seed and earn a first round home game.

I think competent coaching allows stuff like this to happen all over college basketball every year as the reality of the season unfolds in the form of injuries, recruiting mistakes, pleasant surprises, discipline issues and all the other stuff.

Even if Saul wins the tournament, he's not coming back. A three-year extension, to make sense for us, would need a minimal buyout starting with year one. He's not going to take that deal, nor should he, but he hasn't earned a better one and certainly doesn't deserve a raise, even if the consumer price index in Athens is up.

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

BobcatPride
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 8:05:55 PM

Folks, this really is pretty simple.

Phillips has not proven that he can recruit and/or retain the depth of talent required to be a top-flight MAC team. I�m not seeing anyone here make the argument that he has, and that�s understandable. Anyone who�s gone to even a few games this year sees he hasn�t recruited well enough.

He may be nice to talk with, he may have a great family, he may be great in the community, he may be able to turn water into wine. But he can�t recruit enough talent to win at OHiO. He�s had enough time to try, and the talent is not on the roster.

If you can�t recruit better than the majority of other teams in the MAC, you can�t win in the MAC.

We move on from SaulBall and have a go at it with someone else. Does a new coach guarantee years added to the MAC Championship banner? No. But there is no evidence at all to suggest retaining Coach Phillips will add any.

It�s that simple.

Last Edited: 3/9/2019 8:07:11 PM by BobcatPride

shabamon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 9:10:20 PM

greencat wrote:

Somebody mentioned Boals.

Boals went into South Carolina this season and beat the vaunted Frank Martin.
He makes half of what Saul makes.
His team is 24-7 and might make the big dance.

Not so fast, my friend.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 10:04:08 PM

Broomball @ Midnight! wrote:

. . .
Even if Saul wins the tournament, he's not coming back. . . .

You really believe that? On what are you basing that answer to this hypothetical? Granted that OHIO is very unlikely to win the MAC tournament, but IF it did, the whole calculus of this equation changes completely. Unless you have some inside information that I don't have, I'd say you are dead wrong in this assertion.

cc-cat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 10:38:35 PM

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

Last Edited: 3/9/2019 10:38:52 PM by cc-cat

FearLeon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 11:20:31 PM

cc-cat wrote:

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

And Saul Phillips won an NCAA tournament game at his previous and was an absolute 5 year bust in Athens. Give me Boals and his knowledge of how to recruit Ohio.

Last Edited: 3/9/2019 11:22:22 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

BobcatPride
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 11:53:29 PM

FearLeon wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

And Saul Phillips won an NCAA tournament game at his previous and was an absolute 5 year bust in Athens. Give me Boals and his knowledge of how to recruit Ohio.

++++1

In fact, I�ll argue that it�s great that Boals� team lost early in the conference tournament. It would have no impact at all on his ability to recruit Ohio WAY better than Phillips has. It likely will make him less marketable for other jobs, making it easier for OHIO to approach him.

The Bobcats should make a serious run at getting Boals.

Last Edited: 3/9/2019 11:54:40 PM by BobcatPride

bobcatsquared
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/9/2019 11:54:46 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

I, like, Jeff have weighed the options, and feel that watching this team progress through the season with so many underclassmen and with missing Dartis and Gollon (except for his cameo return), and looking at what appears to be improved recruiting, warrants an extension.

OCF is not the first to bring up "improved recruiting." But I have no idea what this belief is based on.

Paraphrasing someone sitting in the sixth row at the Convo last night, if Saul is brought back next year, all of us on BA will have to take up a collection to buy him a nice pair of shoes to wear on game days.

left lane, hammer down
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 1:15:41 AM

Pete Chouteau wrote:

All of my thoughts are disjointed and confusing.

There are excellent points on both sides of this. It's an intriguing debate that will probably come down to which side of the fence opens it's wallet wider. And I know a lot of very loud voices with no foundation to rest their opinions on. I know a lot of reserved voices that are heard clearly when their opinion is expressed.

I really, REALLY, want to see a quality person succeed. I really, REALLY don't know if this one will. I really, REALLY, don't know if anyone else can.

If Saul Phillips returns, I'll repurchase the season tickets that I dropped over stupid ticket policy.

Take a look at Jim Snyder's tenure; specifically, the first 5 years. Yeah, it's apples and oranges. Or is it?

Folks want another John Groce. I posit that he is one of a species that represents 10 of 107 years of Ohio basketball history. Those other 97 years? A lot of Saul Phillips types. We're still around, aren't we?

This is an athletic department ayear t a critical juncture. The new president has changed things, as is his prerogative. Funding has always been iffy at Ohio and it's only going to get harder under Nellis' hand. I'm not at all sure what we can afford if we are looking to hire a new coach. I'm not at all sure if Saul will stay for what we can afford.

+ 1 Agree. BG is paying 700K for their WBBC . Akron is paying John Groce 600K + next year. We need to "up our game" if we want to keep Bolden. $$$v+ extension . SO what do we do with the MBBC?? Offer the current coach a bit less with performance guaranties ??? Or on the other hand go coach hunting ?? If we go hunting I look for 750K + to be in play . I REALLY don't think the athletic department can afford it
My idea. Bob Bolden get a healthy raise and 5 year extension. Saul on the other hand. 2 -3 extension, 400K base pay. Bonuses get him to 600K IF we get to the 2nd round of the NCAA or semi-final of the NIT.

As everyone that thinks Saul should leave have there pitchforks out. Flame on with your posts .

left lane, hammer down
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 1:25:50 AM

FearLeon wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

And Saul Phillips won an NCAA tournament game at his previous and was an absolute 5 year bust in Athens. Give me Boals and his knowledge of how to recruit Ohio.

Please explain how Jeff Boals knows how to recruit to Ohio/a MAC school?? HUGH difference recruiting to A big ten school,

shabamon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 4:28:41 AM

left lane, hammer down wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

And Saul Phillips won an NCAA tournament game at his previous and was an absolute 5 year bust in Athens. Give me Boals and his knowledge of how to recruit Ohio.

Please explain how Jeff Boals knows how to recruit to Ohio/a MAC school?? HUGH difference recruiting to A big ten school,

Jeff Boals has eight combined years of experience as an assistant at MAC schools including with us, Marshall, and Akron.

FearLeon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 9:24:52 AM

left lane, hammer down wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

greencat wrote:

Got bounced in American East quarters tonight. 18 losses last year, bounced in first round of conference this year.....NEXT....not ready.

And Saul Phillips won an NCAA tournament game at his previous and was an absolute 5 year bust in Athens. Give me Boals and his knowledge of how to recruit Ohio.

Please explain how Jeff Boals knows how to recruit to Ohio/a MAC school?? HUGH difference recruiting to A big ten school,

Let's see....4 years as an assistant at Marshall. Last time I checked during his time there, Marshall was a member of the MAC.
1 year as an assistant at Ohio. Last time I checked, that's a MAC school in Ohio.
3 years as assistant at Akron. Last time I checked, that's a MAC school in Ohio.
Then 7 years as an assistant at Ohio State. Last time I checked, that's a Big Ten school in Ohio.

Is there a difference between recruiting players to Ohio State versus Akron and Ohio and Marshall? Of course there is. But the principles remain the same...you are building relationships with Ohio HS coaches and AAU coaches.

How did Groce's recruiting at Ohio work coming from Ohio State as an assistant? Plus, he had no Division One head coaching experience like Boals.

Please explain how Jeff Boals knows how to recruit to Ohio/a MAC school?? Are you even serious with this question? Come on man.

Now I have a question for you. Please explain how Saul knew how to recruit to Ohio/a MAC School?? Huge difference recruiting to a Summit League school vs a MAC school. Boy, did SaulBall find this out the hard way. You are telling me a guy from Wisconsin, with no previous recruiting ties to the state of Ohio and the Mid-American Conference, is more equipped to handle recruiting the state of Ohio better than Boals? Alrighty...then......

Last Edited: 3/10/2019 9:42:15 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

SBH
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 12:50:53 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread, I'd fire JS before I'd fire SP.

I can't help but suspect that you want to retain Saul simply because he's been nice to you and fire Jim Schaus because he hasn't.

From my perspective, there's only one reason to consider dismissing the AD, and that has been his willingness to let the program wither in the hands of Saul Phillips.

Last Edited: 3/10/2019 12:56:10 PM by SBH

Gman
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 3:07:57 PM

SBH wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread, I'd fire JS before I'd fire SP.

Schaus has Ohio Football, Woman's Basketball, Woman's Softball and Baseball headed in the right direction, he just needs to change Men's Basketball coach and Woman's Volleyball coach and all will be good in Bobcat land, Every AD makes hiring mistakes, you learn from it and move on and hopefully he pulls the trigger on Saul when season ends.

Last Edited: 3/10/2019 3:09:34 PM by Gman

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 5:28:42 PM

Gman wrote:

SBH wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread, I'd fire JS before I'd fire SP.

How is athletic department revenue tracking?

cc-cat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 5:50:06 PM

I like Saul. I like his personality. I really like and respect his priorities. But it is time to move on. We can�t get intoxicated by a few weeks. We need to look at the 5 years. I understand when folks say, �yea, but the injuries.� But the injuries have been more painful because of the lack of depth. The lack of depth is a result of poor recruiting � too much hoping, too many projects. I get the impression Saul never dialed up recruiting to match Ohio. He kept recruiting like he was still in North Dakota � where no one ever walked onto campus and said, �this program is for me.�

I hear people talking about next year and how we will be so much better. Why? We lose Doug and there is no one in place to step in. Springs? Not going happen. A freshman? Really? The pipeline is pretty thin upfront. So we will pay Carter out of position. After 5 years we should not be playing out of position.

Again, I like Saul, but the program is not where we should be after 5 years � and that is on him. Time to move on.

The Better Ohio Bobcat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/10/2019 6:04:45 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Recruiting has NOT been improving. Our last 2 recruiting classes have been Saul�s worst. We were the 11 seed last year and are the 10 seed this year. Plus, you have no idea how bad we will miss Doug next year. It couldn�t get any worse with a new coach. #FireSaul

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