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Topic:  RE: Groan

Topic:  RE: Groan
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bobcat28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/19/2011 8:26:59 PM 
Its all Boeh's Fault wrote:
BattleCat wrote:
In fact a high school baseball player can go to school at Marietta cheaper with so/so grades than he could go to Ohio University on a scholarship (by the time you divide 11.9 or so by DI roster).

In the last 40 years Marietta College has the same number MLB players that  Ohio University has, but note Ohio has had only ONE since the mid 70's.  And that horrible Michigan State team has put 10 guys in the Show in the past 40 years where Ohio University has put 4 and only 1 in the past 34 years.


Here's some local D3 school's tuition
1)  Otterbein tution in 2010-11 = $28,413
2) Ohio Wesleyan tuition in 2011-12 = $37,580
3) Marietta College Tuition in 2010-11= $27,640

2010-11 school year for Ohio U, tuition was at $9,537

So what kind of scholarships are they giving out there? 

If D3 Schools so good, what is the Bobcats record against them? I know very rarely do the Bobcats lose to a non D1 team.  Carbone is around a .500 coach if that if you take away all those non-D1 wins.

All I know about Michigan State is in 2003 we took 3 of 4 and in 2006 we split a 4 game series.  I was not very impressed with them. 



Worth mentioning D3 schools technically cannot give athletic scholarships. I'm sure I will get killed for this statement but if you played HS baseball you can play at the D3 level. Almost 1 out of every 4 students plays a sport at a D3 school. There is a huge difference between a D1 athlete and a D3 athlete no matter the sport.

Last Edited: 4/19/2011 8:29:51 PM by bobcat28

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 12:21:58 AM 
bobcat28 wrote:
There is a huge difference between a D1 athlete and a D3 athlete no matter the sport.


Not true in sports that have virtually no existence in D-II like men's tennis.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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bobcat28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 8:11:16 AM 
JSF wrote:
bobcat28 wrote:
There is a huge difference between a D1 athlete and a D3 athlete no matter the sport.


Not true in sports that have virtually no existence in D-II like men's tennis.


I will give you that one. My knowledge of mens collegiate tennis is non existent.
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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 9:20:40 AM 
Bat performance is a national issue, I linked articles at the top of the thread stating these facts. 

I never said that they were using wiffleball bats, but the bats have radically changed in the past year.  The numbers reflect this, not just with Ohio University but Nationally!  Heck look at the Homerun numbers in the SEC, even the SEC Tournament last year when standards were inforced for tampered bats, and the homerun totals fell off the face of the earth in the conference tournament however in the SEC regular season the number of Homeruns was record setting.

http://herald-review.com/sports/baseball/article_fd0b88b6...

The following is a great link from the NCAA itself with a midseason breakdown from 2010 to 2011.  The numbers especially the power numbers are off around 50% or more in many catagories.

http://www.doubleazone.com/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/re...




Last Edited: 4/20/2011 9:26:59 AM by BattleCat

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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 9:30:22 AM 
bobcat28 wrote:
Its all Boeh's Fault wrote:
BattleCat wrote:
In fact a high school baseball player can go to school at Marietta cheaper with so/so grades than he could go to Ohio University on a scholarship (by the time you divide 11.9 or so by DI roster).

In the last 40 years Marietta College has the same number MLB players that  Ohio University has, but note Ohio has had only ONE since the mid 70's.  And that horrible Michigan State team has put 10 guys in the Show in the past 40 years where Ohio University has put 4 and only 1 in the past 34 years.


Here's some local D3 school's tuition
1)  Otterbein tution in 2010-11 = $28,413
2) Ohio Wesleyan tuition in 2011-12 = $37,580
3) Marietta College Tuition in 2010-11= $27,640

2010-11 school year for Ohio U, tuition was at $9,537

So what kind of scholarships are they giving out there? 

If D3 Schools so good, what is the Bobcats record against them? I know very rarely do the Bobcats lose to a non D1 team.  Carbone is around a .500 coach if that if you take away all those non-D1 wins.

All I know about Michigan State is in 2003 we took 3 of 4 and in 2006 we split a 4 game series.  I was not very impressed with them. 



Worth mentioning D3 schools technically cannot give athletic scholarships. I'm sure I will get killed for this statement but if you played HS baseball you can play at the D3 level. Almost 1 out of every 4 students plays a sport at a D3 school. There is a huge difference between a D1 athlete and a D3 athlete no matter the sport.


And yes, DIII athletes with solid academics and solid performers on the field can have their aid packages making school more affordable than a walk on or partial scholarship athlete in baseball, track (men's), and other compareable sports.
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 11:51:56 AM 
I give up. You obviously just can't get it. Again, if the bats are a constant issue throughout baseball, then it just furthers my point that this team can't hit, they shouldn't give up outs by sac bunting a lot, they shouldn't run themselves out of innings, they need to field the ball better and Bob Wren is still an absolute hitter's dream. Not a single part of that changes. Everyone in this thread keeps making the same points, and BattleCat goes back to "well, well, well...THE BATS CHANGED!!!!!!" I don't need another link telling me your point for the 100th time. If this was a wooden bat college team this team would still be a below average hitting team based on the numbers.
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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 12:32:28 PM 
Donuts wrote:
I give up. You obviously just can't get it. Again, if the bats are a constant issue throughout baseball, then it just furthers my point that this team can't hit, they shouldn't give up outs by sac bunting a lot, they shouldn't run themselves out of innings, they need to field the ball better and Bob Wren is still an absolute hitter's dream. Not a single part of that changes. Everyone in this thread keeps making the same points, and BattleCat goes back to "well, well, well...THE BATS CHANGED!!!!!!" I don't need another link telling me your point for the 100th time. If this was a wooden bat college team this team would still be a below average hitting team based on the numbers.


Donuts, I was addressing Bobcat28, I never said our kids could hit, (they obviously are not hitting).  I never disagreed with you.
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 12:34:54 PM 
My apologies then.
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Its all Boeh's Fault
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/20/2011 5:36:23 PM 
I know hitting is down due to bats, i get it, but shouldn't that help out fielding the baseball? 

I figure since the ball is coming off the bat slower, we would be fielding better.  Apparently that is not how it works.  This team has the worst Fielding % compared to the teams since 2005.  Allowed the 3rd most Unearned runs in the MAC

Granted, that the sieve at SS is finally out of the lineup and can't do as much damage anymore, so maybe things will pick up.

We've given up 345 hits (4th most in the MAC) and 183 walks (most in the MAC by 20!), shouldn't we have turned more double plays than 29?  You would think with all those base runners, we would run into a few more DP's.

Oh, I guess i forgot to mention we have been stolen on the 2nd most in the MAC as well (48 steals in 62 attempts for 77% success rate).  So i guess that doesn't help either.

Basically, it boils down to this:  I just want the bobcats to be good and to compete for a title.  Its so frustrating watching this kinda of stuff year in and year out.


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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 4/21/2011 6:31:57 AM 
Funny you say that about fielding, check the NCAA link I put up. Seems that nationally fielding has not changed from last season to this season. You would think you would see an improvement though.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/8/2011 9:47:15 PM 
http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/content/computer-generated-s...


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 10:06:43 AM 
Even if you don't use or consider SABR stats, you don't come out and say it. Now you're just showing off your inability to change while the rest of the world gets better around you. Does he still use a wooden bat because this metal stuff just won't catch on?

No matter how much you might think you know from seeing, statistics will always fill in the gaps and take away any bias you might have. And yes, if you rely only on your eyes, you will have some sort of bias.

Good coaches adjust. Statistics are out there, they aren't all that hard to track and analyze...and again, why not? This is not a case of if it's not broke, don't fix it. It's been broken for a while.

With all that being said, I don't think the writer in the article actually knows a ton about what he is talking about in the SABR world either. I don't know everything either, but I know which stats matter, which ones don't, and I know how to calculate everything but WAR (which would be hard to do anyway at the college level).
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 10:19:59 AM 
Carbone said. “But I don’t need to look at stats to see what I see.”

Wonderful. That's just great.
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bobcat28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 6:21:58 PM 
His "hunches" have led us to a winning record 1 out of the last 9 seasons. Solid.
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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 7:51:39 PM 
Or maybe is hunch is that the batting .128 backing up the guy batting .208 is not as good. I mean are you guys saying we have players on the bench who are studs? But we are not playing them? If so who are these studs? Or are we just NOT that good?
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 8:06:31 PM 
BattleCat wrote:
Or maybe is hunch is that the batting .128 backing up the guy batting .208 is not as good. I mean are you guys saying we have players on the bench who are studs? But we are not playing them? If so who are these studs? Or are we just NOT that good?


If he's only looking at batting average (not saying he is, just going off this example you are using for him), he's an absolute terrible coach (to put it bluntly). Average by itself is a pretty worthless statistic. He probably would use pitcher wins and saves a lot too.

Also, you need context on his comparisons. If player .208 gets 100 at-bats to player .128's 10, numbers can't be compared. If this logic was universally used Willie Mays would have never made the major leagues. This is especially pathetic with pitchers. Derek Witt, aka an ace for OU for 2.5 years, threw like 2/3rds of an inning and got rocked his freshman year. Talk about getting a chance to prove yourself. Are you kidding me? You can't learn anything from a pitcher when he throws an inning or two every month.

Last Edited: 5/9/2011 8:15:40 PM by Donuts

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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 8:26:43 PM 
Even though I stated batting average, I did mean to be all incompessing regarding, practice, cage work and drills. Stats are great, but how large a sample do you need to draw a conclusion? I also ask, giving Ohio's budget, does OU have the resources to keep the "Billy Bean" statistics? And I will also ask how many teams subscribed to money ball and won titles? Guys like Jim Bowden were money ball guys, and he was a joke! A dork who never played the game but tried to use his slide rule to figure out the game.
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Donuts
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/9/2011 9:09:20 PM 
Pretty much every MLB team uses SABR stats. The Red Sox probably the most known as far as recent champions. But yeah, of course it comes down to having talent as well. I would say a lot of those A's teams overachieved, but rarely had the all-around talent to win something. When was the last time you said to yourself "man, Ohio baseball is really playing better than I thought they would."

People see SABR stats and think it's just impossible. I guess because it is math. A lot of statistics are out there (guys with too much time on their hands making formulas that don't even work a lot), but all you need to do is know some formulas and take a look. To denounce them all in an article anyone can read just makes him look stubborn and past him prime.

The main problem I have is he seems to be laughing these stats off like his baseball mind doesn't need the help of facts. I would keep detailed stats of every scrimmage in the fall. I'd also scrimmage a lot to get that kind of data. This would also work ways to tell and show players why they aren't playing.
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Its all Boeh's Fault
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/10/2011 2:06:06 PM 
On one hand I get what Carbone is saying.  I don't need SABR stats to tell me Wes O'Neil is a terrible baseball player.  Shoot the kid has just as many errors (12) as hits (12).  That's more of a joke than this weather we've had.

On the other hand, I think you need to get with the times.  I've never seen this local product Kyle Dean play, but he's got a .379 OBP (4th highest on the team) and our team average is .344.  Maybe give this kid a shot.  Voshell's OBP is .277.  He's a senior and got one foot out the door.  Play the freshmen and see what he can do.  If Voshell was gonna suddenly find it, you think it would have some time ago.  Base Runners are 83% successful stealing on Voshell too.  At least Dean has thrown out 1 runner of the 3 that tried.  Give him a shot, whats the worst that happens?

I know we don't have Men's Track anymore, so the closest thing you are going to find on campus in the spring is the other team's track meet when they get to first base.

Oh and back some time ago, maybe mid 2000s, they use to post more advanced stats.  Like batting average with 0 outs, avg against lefties/righties, and stuff like that.  At least can we see those?

Last Edited: 5/10/2011 2:06:35 PM by Its all Boeh's Fault

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Its all Boeh's Fault
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/10/2011 2:27:45 PM 
Also regards to the post article about Sabermetrics

"Despite its growing popularity, Gladman agreed that the use of sabermetrics might not yet be feasible in college baseball because of the lack of time and resources."

Earlier they Quotes popular sabr stats like WAR, WHIP, and OPS.  Ok, as donuts stated, WAR is impossible to calculate.

However WHIP and OPS are probably the easiest "advanced" stats to calculate

WHIP = Walks + HIts / IP

OPS = OBP + Slug %

Not that difficult.

Voshell OPS = .619
Dean OPS    = .683


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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/10/2011 10:49:42 PM 
Its all Boeh's Fault wrote:
On one hand I get what Carbone is saying. I don't need SABR stats to tell me Wes O'Neil is a terrible baseball player. Shoot the kid has just as many errors (12) as hits (12). That's more of a joke than this weather we've had.

On the other hand, I think you need to get with the times. I've never seen this local product Kyle Dean play, but he's got a .379 OBP (4th highest on the team) and our team average is .344. Maybe give this kid a shot. Voshell's OBP is .277. He's a senior and got one foot out the door. Play the freshmen and see what he can do. If Voshell was gonna suddenly find it, you think it would have some time ago. Base Runners are 83% successful stealing on Voshell too. At least Dean has thrown out 1 runner of the 3 that tried. Give him a shot, whats the worst that happens?

I know we don't have Men's Track anymore, so the closest thing you are going to find on campus in the spring is the other team's track meet when they get to first base.

Oh and back some time ago, maybe mid 2000s, they use to post more advanced stats. Like batting average with 0 outs, avg against lefties/righties, and stuff like that. At least can we see those?



Interesting thoughts on the Dean kid, but I have a question for you. Would you be the first one on here blasting the coach for sitting a senior for a freshman like you did about Keen? On one hand you bemoan the benching of a Senior, on the other you want a Senior benched.
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/10/2011 11:41:33 PM 
I think we can afford sabremetrics....as most computers have EXCEL on them.

Also, don't you think Carbone could easily reach out to many of the Math Professors nearby if he needs help interpreting the mathematical side of things? I'm guessing Sabremetrics in baseball is a bit short of splitting the atom.
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BattleCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/11/2011 10:16:03 AM 
I would think the larger problem (if there would be a problem) would be the number of people to compile the stats.  Isn't the Sports Information Department kind of small?
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Its all Boeh's Fault
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/11/2011 11:12:01 AM 
BattleCat wrote:
I would think the larger problem (if there would be a problem) would be the number of people to compile the stats.  Isn't the Sports Information Department kind of small?


I'm glad you brought that point up.  Maybe the assistant coaches could crunch the stats instead of reading bobcat attack all morning or whatever it is that they do.
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Its all Boeh's Fault
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groan
   Posted: 5/11/2011 11:29:24 AM 
BattleCat wrote:
Interesting thoughts on the Dean kid, but I have a question for you. Would you be the first one on here blasting the coach for sitting a senior for a freshman like you did about Keen? On one hand you bemoan the benching of a Senior, on the other you want a Senior benched.


You are referring to this quote of mine "Keen quit?  After playing every game for the past 3 years, we now put him on the bench?"

This was definitely not in support of Keen.  I don't even want to look up those dreadful stats, but i know he hit below .200 that past 2 years while playing/starting almost every game the past 3 years.  Just figured, we would have figured out he wasn't an everyday player a long long time ago, but decided after 2 terrible years it was time to sit him. Am I the only one that thinks that was strange?  I would have probably sat him down mid-way through his sophomore year.

As far as freshmen vs seniors and whatever, i see it as best players play.  I don't give a crap how much money you get, if you were all world in high school, if you've been drafted, etc.  If you are outplaying you competition at whatever position, you deserve a chance to play everyday and see how it goes.  Voshell has had a boat load of at bats and chances and he just isn't hitting or throwing anyone out. 

If you give someone a chance and put a little faith in them you might be surprised in what happens.  I don't know if this Dean kid is a scholarship player or not, but I bet you he's been on the bench waiting for a chance and when he gets in who knows what could happen.  What's the worst that can happen?  The other team steals at will and he doesn't get any hits?  Sounds like what is currently happening.

"you want big rewards?  you gotta take big risks."

Last Edited: 5/11/2011 11:30:44 AM by Its all Boeh's Fault

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