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Topic: RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Topic: RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/21/2020 2:40:56 PM

giacomo wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Ted Thompson wrote:

The FCS playoffs make no sense for anyone. That's why the Appalachian State's of the word go FBS.

The folks at the top of the heap in FCS are basically in the same revenue situation as the MAC. Our football revenue of 9 million would be tops in FCS, but only by about 1.5 million.

Are you saying OUR football revenue is 9 Million or the entire MAC? It can't be our revenue number.

I assume it's top line.

Alan Swank
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/21/2020 4:38:50 PM

Ted Thompson wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.

Good point Jeff. Why would current day athletes about to graduate or recent graduates give in more than those from 10, 20, or 30 years ago. For whatever reason, people just don't give to public universities in general like they do to private ones. There just isn't the same level of financial affinity.

But at least using the threat of the sport's ongoing viability should increase donations. BG baseball alumni raised $900k in one day. Can they do that annually? I don't know. Ohio Football probably has over 800 living alumni, if that group can't endow one scholarship every year then maybe Athletics isn't doing the good we think it's doing.

When Ohio cut track and field, why not throw out an endowment number? If we hit a $5M endowment number, we'll bring back the sport. I don't see the harm in that.

$5 million would not have done it. With a 4% distribution and the 2% administrative fee that the foundation charges, the fund would need to see an annual growth of 6% just to stay flat. Additionally, most people don't take kindly to threats.

GraffZ06
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Member Since: 1/5/2005
Location: Dayton, OH
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/22/2020 12:39:01 AM

JSF wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?

Sounds like the market will work it out.

I totally agree. The market, as dictated by ESPN/Di$ney and national football media, basically says only the P5 teams are worth watching nationally, consistently, and are the only $ makers (a few weeks of March Madness and College World Series aside). So let those "schools" pay their players. Let them finally just be the pro feeder system/minor leagues/whatever you want to call them that they've become. Just drop the college/amateur label for them already and thus separate them from the rest of the schools.

The rest can stop trying to compete at that level in the arms race, which the market clearly shows they can't sustain anyway. Let everyone else play for the NCAA (or college or amateur) football playoffs and March Madness and CWS. Those will still garner ratings.

Let the P5 duke it out and have their own minor league championships/rules completely separate.

Would people tune in for the top 8 non-P5 teams in a college football playoff for 2 or 3 weekends? I think so. And at the same time they could still watch O$U get stomped by Clemson or Alabama whoop Notre Dame in the "22U Minor League Football Championships" for example.

Either operate under a free market like the rest of the world and structure it like above, or force everyone to operate on an actual level playing field. These half measures where it's sorta/kinda/half is going to kill it all.

Ted Thompson
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/22/2020 7:59:58 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

Ted Thompson wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Ted,

The problem with paths to sustainability is that the plans for getting there are based on uncertain fundraising futures.

Whatever the number is. Maybe if the endowment comes up with half the budget, the university is OK funding the other half. I don't see how asking people to guarantee the future of their sport is a threat. Whatever the MAC has been the last 70 years or so clearly has not worked. Why not try another approach?

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/22/2020 2:19:24 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

I think it's a bit weird to use scare quotes around "schools" to describe a group of universities that includes schools like Boston College, Duke, UVA, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Michigan, Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, Vanderbilt, etc.

The reality is that G5 schools are generally less well-regarded academically. Very few are their state's flagship university, and only West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, Rice and and a few others would be considered elite, selective schools.

I get that most of the athletes in revenue generating sports at those schools are there for non-academic reasons, but the reality is that's true at G5 schools, too. Everybody wants to equate amateurism with some sort of purity, but I don't see it. Somehow the idea of talented people getting paid for their talents has become a dirty concept for a whole bunch of people. I don't get it at all. Duke is a "school" because they're very good at running a basketball program, where as Toledo -- which provides a (largely) crappy education and also does a poor job of running their athletic department is, somehow, good? All because they try very hard to but fail to make money on athletics? Weird standard.

John Calipari does an outstanding job of preparing University of Kentucky students for very lucrative careers. But because those careers are in basketball and not finance it's somehow bad?

GraffZ06 wrote:

The rest can stop trying to compete at that level in the arms race, which the market clearly shows they can't sustain anyway. Let everyone else play for the NCAA (or college or amateur) football playoffs and March Madness and CWS. Those will still garner ratings.

I mostly agree, but not on the ratings piece. Nobody cares if David beats up David. The popularity of March Madness requires a Goliath. Separating the two so fully that they no longer compete is a death knell for both groups.

For me, the obvious alternative is to just stop lionizing amateurism as some be all end all. Let athletes earn what a free and open market is willing to pay them. Will it impact competitive balance? Probably. Is there competitive balance right now? Not really. There's just a thin veneer of it.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Would people tune in for the top 8 non-P5 teams in a college football playoff for 2 or 3 weekends? I think so. And at the same time they could still watch O$U get stomped by Clemson or Alabama whoop Notre Dame in the "22U Minor League Football Championships" for example.

Do people tune in to watch the MAC Champion play the Sun Belt Champion in the [Mid-sized regional company] Bowl in [mid-sized regional city] each year? No, not really. I can see the argument that the allure of a true, single-elimination tournament might increase ratings, but I don't think the increase would be so substantial that it actually becomes popular.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Either operate under a free market like the rest of the world and structure it like above, or force everyone to operate on an actual level playing field. These half measures where it's sorta/kinda/half is going to kill it all.

What you're describing is the opposite of a free market. It's a highly regulated market in which size and resource dictates which rules apply to a given school.

Pataskala
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/22/2020 5:48:25 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

Before they come up with a G5 playoff, they'll probably let the American into the "P" club and expand that playoff. It's the only G5 conference that consistently puts three or four teams in the top 25 and that consistently is competitive with the current "P"s. It's been clamoring for it -- it already refers to itself as the 6th power conference -- and there's actually a good argument for it. What the Gs might consider is an eight-to-ten game spring schedule with a playoff among the conference champs in late May to early June. That way, they're not competing for TV time with the "P"s. Players should be allowed to be drafted by the NFL but retain eligibility for the season the same as college baseball players are.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/23/2020 3:44:33 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

So what are all these "athletes" going to do when there's no more "athletics" because none of the schools can afford it?

Oh sure - the P5 will play ball. So congrats, 50 teams max.

Just do away with it already and call it the minor leagues / developmental leagues that it's becoming.

Mark my words, high school sports is coming next. ZOMG the schools make profit on football ticket and concession sales and split the pot! They're profiting off the poor high school kids! Pay em!

Lunacy.

Edit - Of course it was the 9th Circuit.

The fact that P5 and G5 schools are currently governed by the same regulations does not mean that has to remain the case in perpetuity.

If schools can't afford to pay athletes, then they shouldn't pay athletes. There's literally nothing stopping them from competing at a lower level where student athletes are in school for the education and also choose to participate in sports because they enjoy it and want to. That is, ironically, what so many claim to love about college sports in the first place. So it's very unclear to me why a big chunk of schools reverting back to that's such a problem for people.

Schools at any level will be having athletes eligible for endorsements, not just DI, not just P5,. Schools will not pay athletes, the moment they do, there will be no more NCAA sports. This could easily and quickly erode college sports to where it may not exist anymore.

giacomo
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/23/2020 9:14:50 PM

When you pay coaches 3-10M, the money is there. It�s hypocritical to not have compensation for the players.

Pataskala
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/24/2020 10:41:26 PM

giacomo wrote:

When you pay coaches 3-10M, the money is there. It�s hypocritical to not have compensation for the players.

Yep. It's in line with that old adage "fans don't come out to watch coaches coach; they come out to watch players play."

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/25/2020 9:39:34 AM

Love college sports, it�s the one area that capitalist come to complain about market values and the American form of capitalism. And, yes, we�ve made higher education a capitalist venture, that�s why each department bills the other and is under pressure to produce revenue. Education ceased becoming an investment many years ago.

JSF
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/26/2020 7:51:17 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

For me, the obvious alternative is to just stop lionizing amateurism as some be all end all. Let athletes earn what a free and open market is willing to pay them. Will it impact competitive balance? Probably. Is there competitive balance right now? Not really. There's just a thin veneer of it.

Remember when people predicted the end of the Olympics when pros were allowed to participate?

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

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The Optimist
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RE: Court says NCAA violates Sherman Act

Posted: 5/26/2020 10:27:02 PM

JSF wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Remember when people predicted the end of the Olympics when pros were allowed to participate?

Good point. There is a certain "survive and advance" mindset to sports.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I've seen crazier things happen.

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