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Ohio Basketball
Topic:  RE: Future Coach

Topic:  RE: Future Coach
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 8:08:05 AM 
Many of the former players you listed were very good if not great Bobcats but if they weren't, I doubt if any of us would be talking about them. One of the biggest mistakes managers making in the hiring process is hiring people that they like. Research and personal experience will tell you that often leads to bad hires or to the blind loyalty that Malcolm Gladwell talks about that sometimes leads to plane crashes in some countries because a junior pilot refuses to question a senior pilot.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 8:39:27 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
Who else would not feel terribly cozy hiring another small school guy and expecting it to turn out differently? My hunch is that we won't take that route again for fear of Saul 2.0. I'm not going to say I have any ideas who it will be, but my bet would be an up-and-coming assistant getting his first head coaching gig.


For heavens sake, I think I'm gonna pull what hair I have left out of my head the next time I hear someone say Coach Phillips came from a small college. North Dakota State....Div I, from the Summit Conference that some years (not this year) is as good or nearly as good as the MAC. Please quit insinuating or coming right out and saying North Dakota State is a "small college". And he made two NCAA tournaments and won a game.

As for Coach Vanderwal at Marietta....he is an excellent coach and has done a remarkable job of building a Div III powerhouse at Marietta. I have no clue whether he's interested in a Div I job or whether he's been contacted by any Div I programs. But I think he would be worth Div I consideration IF he believes he could make the recruiting transition.



Ohio University enrollment is more than double the enrollment of NDSU. And Phillips left NDSU for a job here. Why? Is a huge part of it money, sure. We paid him substantially more coin than NDSU was paying him ($175,000 base at NDSU, well over $500,000 here). I think you're lying to yourself if you think it was purely for the money and was a lateral move, otherwise. So based on enrollment and simple dollars and sense, in my oh-so-humble opinion, I think NDSU is a smaller school.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 8:55:57 AM 
Just to add to MAC vs Summit, here are the overall conference records for 2018/19.

Summit: 109-122 overall record, .472 winning percentage

MAC: 173-116 overall record, .599 winning percentage


Teams in the conference with overall records over .500

Summit: 4, 4/9 teams over .500

MAC: 8, 8/12 currently over .500


Teams in the conference currently with double-digit losses overall

Summit: 7/9, 5 teams with 15+ losses overall

MAC: 7/12, 1 team with 15+ losses

I'm not going to say the top tier teams in the Summit aren't comparable to the top end teams in the MAC. That difference might not be that big. Top to bottom, I think the MAC is a better league.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 10:45:13 AM 
100%Cat wrote:
I'm not going to say the top tier teams in the Summit aren't comparable to the top end teams in the MAC. That difference might not be that big. Top to bottom, I think the MAC is a better league.


This year the MAC is the better league according to all the metrics in NET and Kempom, etc. Has it been every year in the last 5-10? I don't know. I do know that the Summit, historically, is not among the worst conferences in the NCAA.
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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 11:14:21 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How about Tommy Amaker?


He makes 700k and Harvard is a better job than Ohio.


Interesting comment. Would you say that Penn, Princeton and Yale are better jobs than Ohio also?



Depends on personal taste from my standpoint. Harvard has prestige, and is set in a nice urban setting. 700k doesn't go very far there though, while 500k in Athens, Ohio is a King's Ransom. Ohio University, while extremely beautiful and a solid institution in and of itself, is stuck in the middle of nowhere. That might be a good thing though when it comes to minimizing distractions and focusing on both winning and school. At the same time though, given a choice -- all things being equal -- between going to an Ivy League school and going to Ohio University, what would you choose? The decision is clear to me -- Bobcat loyalist that I am -- but it would be hard to turn down a chance to go to Harvard. Besides, I have always liked the Boston Punk Rock scene.
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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 11:55:26 AM 
Harvard will always look better on anyone's resume!





GO BOBCATS
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The Better Ohio Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 5:19:29 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
Who else would not feel terribly cozy hiring another small school guy and expecting it to turn out differently? My hunch is that we won't take that route again for fear of Saul 2.0. I'm not going to say I have any ideas who it will be, but my bet would be an up-and-coming assistant getting his first head coaching gig.


I don't think it would be anyone's first choice. But if they've decided to de-emphasize athletics in the budget, it's a cost-conscious way to find a steady, unspectacular coach who will stick around for a long time.

Essentially find another Saul Phillips at half the price. I think this administration running OU right now would find that attractive.


It would be cheaper to bring in an assistant with no head coaching experience.
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BuddyLee
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 7:35:49 PM 
What about Sonny Johnson. Heís an alum, has successful head coach experience, and would have a good network of Ohio high school players and coaches,
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bobcat28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 9:37:04 PM 
BuddyLee wrote:
What about Sonny Johnson. Heís an alum, has successful head coach experience, and would have a good network of Ohio high school players and coaches,


Sonny's son is a star freshman at Garfield and hes got younger kids also. I cant see him going anywhere until his kids get through hs. He has built a great program at Garfield. His kids will end up at osu or some p5 program.

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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 9:51:16 PM 
God these are some bad suggestions.
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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/15/2019 10:28:23 PM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
DJCooperBurnerAccount wrote:
Option #1: It's a long shot as he has no HC history and he's an alum so I doubt Schaus makes it happen- Tommy Freeman. We all know him as a player under Groce, he has rapport with the fans, worked as a GA. He's from Indiana so he could snag some talent from there. He's working at a D3 school now so I'm assuming he would welcome a D1 HC salary. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but it's better than Saul.

Option #2 (A more realistic one): Brian Cooley
https://wsuraiders.com/staff.aspx?staff=154

Cooley is an associate HC at Wright State. Fresh off an NCAA tourney appearance, Wright State is on the rise. I know the thought of bringing in someone with Dakota history is a sore subject right now, but they've got 8 kids on their roster from Ohio. Seems he can find talent in the area decently well.

Anything at this point is speculation, but those are two guys I'd be interested in. With Schaus at the helm it'll likely be someone completely off the radar..


Welcome to the board! Nice name for your user ID!

I'd love to see Tommy back here on the coaching staff. He's clearly a student of the jump shot that could help some of the current bunch. Other former players that I like that would be nice additions to a coaching staff would include Walt Offut, David McKinley, and Ricardo Johnson. I'm just not sure any one of them is really ready or qualified to be the head coach quite yet.

Having a former player on staff from somewhat recent years might be a really good thing in terms of standing in front of players and recruits to say "this is how we're gonna do things, and this is the success we had when I was here by doing them this way."

If we're talking former folks that have been here, what about Fuss? He was the common denominator across Groce, Christian, and Saul staffs up until he left. I personally think in some aspects we took a small step back when he left.


I have actually been thinking about Ric, Stevie, Tommy and Dante Jackson was guys who I would actually have no problem seeing leading this program. People get hung up on experience and being "qualified." Saul was "qualified." Christian was very qualified and used us and abused us. I think it would be a cool risk to go with a guy like Rico or like you said, Fuss and get some OU guys on staff. Guys who understand what it means to love Ohio University. I don't think Saul got it. Groce was at least around the state. Dustin Ford was on his staff. We have to get that Bobcat love back!


Not sure how anyone can say Saul does NOT get what it means to love OHIO University. Saul is a great member of the community and ambassador of the University. Any failures he has had is not because he does not love and value the experience of OHIO.


Let me rephrase: When Saul was hired one of his main things he made sure to glow about in his press conference was (paraphrasing) "Look around at this place. If I can't sell this place, I am not a great salesman. To get kids to go to North Dakota you have to sell them but this place, it sells itself." Apparently he has learned that it doesn't "sell itself" as his recruits show and he must not be able to "sell" it on those living room couches. Everyone on here agrees that we have slipped mostly from a talent perspective and I would go so far as to say we are the least athletic team in the MAC right now. I am certain that Saul enjoys Athens and that he has respect for Ohio University. I was not saying that he doesn't like the college or the town. I, as a person who glows when I tell people I went to OU and who goes back several times a year, just don't see that from him when he talks. He can wear all the green ties he wants and talk about lava cakes all day but in the end, tell me then what you see from him that shows he truly GETS OU? Tell me and then we can talk. Otherwise, some of you need to quit simply saying "you are stupid" or "That's the worst take ever." You're not Jim Rome. Offer some counterpoints or continue calling out to your mom to get you some meatloaf.


But you ARE stupid (with your asinine drivel). And that is in refernece to BOTH basketball AND football posts. Don't let facts get in the way of your angry posts.

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 1:52:47 AM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
Let me rephrase: When Saul was hired one of his main things he made sure to glow about in his press conference was (paraphrasing) "Look around at this place. If I can't sell this place, I am not a great salesman. To get kids to go to North Dakota you have to sell them but this place, it sells itself." Apparently he has learned that it doesn't "sell itself" as his recruits show and he must not be able to "sell" it on those living room couches. Everyone on here agrees that we have slipped mostly from a talent perspective and I would go so far as to say we are the least athletic team in the MAC right now. I am certain that Saul enjoys Athens and that he has respect for Ohio University.


Don't agree with everything said after this, but the part quoted above is spot-on. He was effusively confident in recruiting at his press conference. Looking back, it seems a bit like "pride cometh before the fall".

I truly don't know what the main issue was with his recruiting: talent evaluation or the inability to sell recruits? I feel like it's most likely a little bit of both.

Regardless of the reason, the main reason for Saul's imminent departure has to be put on recruiting. When we had some talent (Campbell, Simmons, Dartis, etc.), I felt like he was a decent in-game coach and motivator. But you can't win when you've got MEAC talent in the MAC.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 3:10:24 AM 
I NEVER said that the Summit is as good as the MAC. Vanderwal's name was mentioned and 100%Cat said we better be careful of bringing in another small college coach. I was just pointing out that North Dakota State is Div I and comes from a conference that often is middle of the pack among Div I conferences.

BTW...check out the attendance figures for the Summit tournament the past few years Title game averaging between 9000-10000.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 8:26:59 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
I NEVER said that the Summit is as good as the MAC. Vanderwal's name was mentioned and 100%Cat said we better be careful of bringing in another small college coach. I was just pointing out that North Dakota State is Div I and comes from a conference that often is middle of the pack among Div I conferences.

BTW...check out the attendance figures for the Summit tournament the past few years Title game averaging between 9000-10000.


I'm of the mindset that "small college coach" isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, I think that any such coach needs to be familiar with our recruiting territory. I doubt Saul had recruited Ohio (or the Great Lakes Region - OH, MI, IN, IL, etc.) all that much before getting here.
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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 9:31:55 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How about Tommy Amaker?


He makes 700k and Harvard is a better job than Ohio.


Interesting comment. Would you say that Penn, Princeton and Yale are better jobs than Ohio also?



Ivy League is non scholarship so no.


Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 4:14:14 PM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How about Tommy Amaker?


He makes 700k and Harvard is a better job than Ohio.


Interesting comment. Would you say that Penn, Princeton and Yale are better jobs than Ohio also?



Ivy League is non scholarship so no.


🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Seriously Clark??? Ivies do not need scholarships. Their athletes are going for free via endowments and aide.

ďThe majority of Harvard players graduate debt freeĒ....offers more aid than anyone in the country.

https://www.gocrimson.com/sports/fball/Program_Informatio...

Last Edited: 2/16/2019 4:54:02 PM by BillyTheCat

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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 9:42:55 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
How about Tommy Amaker?


He makes 700k and Harvard is a better job than Ohio.


Interesting comment. Would you say that Penn, Princeton and Yale are better jobs than Ohio also?



Ivy League is non scholarship so no.


🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ Seriously Clark??? Ivies do not need scholarships. Their athletes are going for free via endowments and aide.

ďThe majority of Harvard players graduate debt freeĒ....offers more aid than anyone in the country.

https://www.gocrimson.com/sports/fball/Program_Informatio...


From your link it says the average aid award is 47,000 for all students, not unexpected its an expensive school right? Then it says the [u]majority[/u] of the Harvard football team receives a high level of financial aid to graduate debt free. They aren't part of the NCAA clearinghouse system for qualifiers but are able to pick up aid like a regular student. The Ivies have their own qualifier system called the Academic Index (AI) that all student athletes need to stay within a deviation of. The minimum AI is 176 that a school could carry and at some of the top Ivies they average 220. A 220 score would be like a 4.8 so at 176 that would make it 3.84. Its not to say some excellent athletes can't qualify or that the value of the degree isn't far greater but what I would say its not the same thing as Duke or Stanford...or Ohio were they can throw a NCAA clearinghouse minimum qualifier onto the court.

http://www.varsityedge.com/ivy-league-recruiting/#.XGitAP...




Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 10:24:02 PM 
Yeah, I am well aware of what I posted, Iím also familiar with several student athletes who have played at Ivies. You make an assumption on the simple fact they do not give athletic scholarships, well, they do not need too give athletic scholarships to get kids. They pay more, they have bigger budgets and they get kids. They also retain coaches.
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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 10:40:33 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
[QUOTE=Bobcat1998]He was effusively confident in recruiting at his press conference. Looking back, it seems a bit like "pride cometh before the fall".


Seriously? What do you what a coach to say? "Jeez, I don't know, it's gonna be tough to recruit to this school." ???
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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/16/2019 11:37:48 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Yeah, I am well aware of what I posted, Iím also familiar with several student athletes who have played at Ivies. You make an assumption on the simple fact they do not give athletic scholarships, well, they do not need too give athletic scholarships to get kids. They pay more, they have bigger budgets and they get kids. They also retain coaches.


That also require that kids have 3.8 to 4.0 with boards in the upper 10th percentile to get in as a student athlete. That to me is a big recruiting limitation so I don't think of the Ivies as better D1 jobs at least upside wise. If you want an example of somewhere which is definitely a better job Cincinnati is a good example. Deeper tradition than Ohio, significant TV market, stronger donor base and community support. Trying to infer that Dartmouth College is a better job for a coach to come in and make a Sweet 16 because its in the Ivy League is stretching the definition of academic aid making up for no athletic scholarships beyond what it can be stretched.


Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/17/2019 6:11:01 AM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Yeah, I am well aware of what I posted, Iím also familiar with several student athletes who have played at Ivies. You make an assumption on the simple fact they do not give athletic scholarships, well, they do not need too give athletic scholarships to get kids. They pay more, they have bigger budgets and they get kids. They also retain coaches.


That also require that kids have 3.8 to 4.0 with boards in the upper 10th percentile to get in as a student athlete. That to me is a big recruiting limitation so I don't think of the Ivies as better D1 jobs at least upside wise. If you want an example of somewhere which is definitely a better job Cincinnati is a good example. Deeper tradition than Ohio, significant TV market, stronger donor base and community support. Trying to infer that Dartmouth College is a better job for a coach to come in and make a Sweet 16 because its in the Ivy League is stretching the definition of academic aid making up for no athletic scholarships beyond what it can be stretched.


🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

Itís not a recruiting limitation, itís a recruiting target! Talk to and get to know folks who coach in that league, they recruit a different caliber of student athlete. By your measure, Army, Navy and Air Force are not as good of football jobs as OHIO.
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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/17/2019 11:47:21 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Yeah, I am well aware of what I posted, Iím also familiar with several student athletes who have played at Ivies. You make an assumption on the simple fact they do not give athletic scholarships, well, they do not need too give athletic scholarships to get kids. They pay more, they have bigger budgets and they get kids. They also retain coaches.


That also require that kids have 3.8 to 4.0 with boards in the upper 10th percentile to get in as a student athlete. That to me is a big recruiting limitation so I don't think of the Ivies as better D1 jobs at least upside wise. If you want an example of somewhere which is definitely a better job Cincinnati is a good example. Deeper tradition than Ohio, significant TV market, stronger donor base and community support. Trying to infer that Dartmouth College is a better job for a coach to come in and make a Sweet 16 because its in the Ivy League is stretching the definition of academic aid making up for no athletic scholarships beyond what it can be stretched.


🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

Itís not a recruiting limitation, itís a recruiting target! Talk to and get to know folks who coach in that league, they recruit a different caliber of student athlete. By your measure, Army, Navy and Air Force are not as good of football jobs as OHIO.


Your logic doesn't follow at all. The academies are yet a different situation. They would like to see a kid playing 3 varsity sports with an eagle scout and honor society, debate clubs ect. fully loaded up type that is also a D1 athlete. Its not going to be as strict of a cutoff on the grades or boards at those places. Ivies you are looking at kids with a 4.2 that couldn't get in without football with probably very few that are getting in below a 4.0. You can't recruit a Top 10 basketball team with those standards. Ohio has a better chance of doing it as a second tier version of a basketball school than what Ivies could sustain. First tier is Wichita, Memphis, Cincinnati second tier Ohio, W.Kentucky, Louisiana Tech with the big arena, some recruiting advantages but not the big metro. Buffalo and Old Dominion are second tier trying to go first tier. Marshall is second tier. Ivies are a different market all together.

Last Edited: 2/17/2019 12:00:39 PM by Uncle Wes


Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/17/2019 11:59:21 AM 
Ivy League is the top low major D1 conference. King over the Patriot League and the Northeastern Conference. Coaches have job security but not a place to build a recruiting pipeline that you can take to the ACC. The difference in admission practices equals a difference in recruiting practices.


Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/17/2019 12:08:39 PM 
And it also sounds like those ACC and other power conference recruiting pipelines include covert contracts from basketball shoe makers and hundred dollar handshakes from Alumni.
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Uncle Wes
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  Message Not Read  RE: Future Coach
   Posted: 2/17/2019 12:13:15 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:
And it also sounds like those ACC and other power conference recruiting pipelines include covert contracts from basketball shoe makers and hundred dollar handshakes from Alumni.


Dartmouth or Bryant College is not the gateway to that world.


Bobcat Sustainability
2018 Quentin Poling, 7th Round (Miami Dolphins)
2017 Tarell Basham, 3rd Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2017 Blair Brown, 5th Round (Jacksonville Jaguars)
2014 Travis Carrie, 7th Round (Oakland Raiders)
2013 Eric Herman, 7th Round (New York Giants)
2012 LaVon Brazil, 6th Round (Indianapolis Colts)
2010 Taylor Price, 3rd Round (NE Patriots)
2009 Mike Mitchell, 2nd Round (Oakland Raiders)
2008 Landon Cohen, 7th Round (Detroit Lions)

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