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Topic:  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53

Topic:  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 11:28:08 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 11:36:17 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 11:47:55 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.
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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 9:06:51 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 8:13:40 AM 
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 8:19:43 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


Yeah because the last thing the new coach is going to do before signing a contract that is probably going to pay him a minimum of $350K per year is to go on Bobcat Attack and see what FearLeon and Buck.Cat have to say about the team and staff. Good lord....you are joking right?

And if you don't think that Saul's five years here is a failure then you have the lowest of expectations. Congrats on your participation ribbons as well.

Last Edited: 2/13/2019 8:21:14 AM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 8:25:59 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If we interview a coach and his expectations are anything less than a MAC championship in five years, they should cut the interview short and move on to the next candidate. We will be in a rebuild with one of the best big’s in the conference and one of the best defender’s (Cowart). The coach will have tremendous support from the fan base and the institution (spending). We shouldn’t be governed by fear. Saul didn’t fail or succeed, he touched a lot of hearts as we can see from the message board, while presiding over a middle tier/bottom tier program. We pay over 500k to play to win. If our academics fell into the bottom tier, we would fire the president. Every school has standards and we have to decide where we set our standards.

Last Edited: 2/13/2019 8:27:07 AM by allen


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 8:37:11 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If it's delusional to expect a winning conference record given what the school puts into the program, could you tell us what rational expectations look like? Not losing every game by 20?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 9:37:53 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If it's delusional to expect a winning conference record given what the school puts into the program, could you tell us what rational expectations look like? Not losing every game by 20?


All you need to do to see "what I think rational expectations look like" is, you know, read the thread you responded to.

I laid out a hypothetical scenario where Saul had OU in three MAC Championship games in and narrowly lost in all three. Buck said he'd fire him regardless.

Or actually, probably more accurately, Buck came into a thread, didn't read it closely, and couldn't resist chiming in about his thoughts on firing Saul because literally nobody here seems capable of following a conversation or responding rationally when it comes to this particular subject.

There's a conversation taking place about what expectations are reasonable going forward. Nobody is arguing in favor of retaining Saul, nor is anybody arguing that the results to date are acceptable.

Last Edited: 2/13/2019 9:53:05 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 9:44:08 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


Yeah because the last thing the new coach is going to do before signing a contract that is probably going to pay him a minimum of $350K per year is to go on Bobcat Attack and see what FearLeon and Buck.Cat have to say about the team and staff. Good lord....you are joking right?

And if you don't think that Saul's five years here is a failure then you have the lowest of expectations. Congrats on your participation ribbons as well.



Learn to read better.

It's truly ridiculous that you still think anybody here is defending Saul's record. Nobody is doing that. You're crusading against a completely imagined opposition. Everybody is onboard with moving on. In fact, this very conversation is about what the expectations should be when we move on.

And no, I don't think the next coach cares about what you say. What I do think they care about is how the fanbase perceives success and how their results will be judged. Part of understanding that is understanding what the fanbase expects. And I happen to think it's completely crazy that some people here think that fielding a very competitive team with three close MAC Championship game losses would be considered a failure.

All that said, you didn't bother to understand the context of what I wrote and are you're not actually arguing with the point I made. You are, as usual, just having the same old argument you've been having with nobody at all for the last 5 months.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 9:51:13 AM 
allen wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If we interview a coach and his expectations are anything less than a MAC championship in five years, they should cut the interview short and move on to the next candidate. We will be in a rebuild with one of the best big’s in the conference and one of the best defender’s (Cowart). The coach will have tremendous support from the fan base and the institution (spending). We shouldn’t be governed by fear. Saul didn’t fail or succeed, he touched a lot of hearts as we can see from the message board, while presiding over a middle tier/bottom tier program. We pay over 500k to play to win. If our academics fell into the bottom tier, we would fire the president. Every school has standards and we have to decide where we set our standards.


Expectations and reality are two different things.

Coaches should all have the expectation that they can win the conference -- at no point did I argue that we should hire a coach without the expectations or desire to do so.

But I think context is important to measuring the results, and the idea that any coach who fails to make an NCAA tournament in five years is a failure is overly simplistic. We want a coach who builds a competitive team that has the chance to win every year. But the reality is that actually winning takes a whole lot of luck in single elimination tournaments, so I'm not going to just cast aside a coach who has us on the cusp but has some bad luck.

And I think anybody who believes otherwise is, frankly, a bit delusional about what our program is and how easy it is to get to the NCAAs.
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allen
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 9:52:51 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If it's delusional to expect a winning conference record given what the school puts into the program, could you tell us what rational expectations look like? Not losing every game by 20?


Sorry, but you missed the point.

I laid out a hypothetical scenario where Saul had OU in three MAC Championship games in and narrowly lost in all three. Buck said he'd fire him regardless.

Or actually, probably more accurately, Buck came into a thread, didn't read it closely, and couldn't resist chiming in about his thoughts on firing Saul because literally nobody here seems capable of following a conversation or responding rationally when it comes to this particular subject.

There's a conversation taking place about what expectations are reasonable going forward. Nobody is arguing in favor of retaining Saul, nor is anybody arguing that the results to date are acceptable.

It is easy to discern your thought and intentions, that is why you come up with crazy hypotheticals and moral victories. It is is also why you called people with reasonable expectations delusional. We all hope that Saul can pull a rabbit out of his hat. Don’t be ashamed to be a Saul advocate, it is nothing wrong with that, but is wrong to lie about how you feel on a message board. Be strong and of a good courage and tell us really how you feel and we can have a debate or a meeting of the minds.


Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 10:03:41 AM 
allen wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Buck.Cat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then?


Easy answer. Yes.


Well, in that case, coaches are definitely going to be banging down the door to get this job. A full rebuild AND a delusional fanbase with crazy expectations? Great combination.


If it's delusional to expect a winning conference record given what the school puts into the program, could you tell us what rational expectations look like? Not losing every game by 20?


Sorry, but you missed the point.

I laid out a hypothetical scenario where Saul had OU in three MAC Championship games in and narrowly lost in all three. Buck said he'd fire him regardless.

Or actually, probably more accurately, Buck came into a thread, didn't read it closely, and couldn't resist chiming in about his thoughts on firing Saul because literally nobody here seems capable of following a conversation or responding rationally when it comes to this particular subject.

There's a conversation taking place about what expectations are reasonable going forward. Nobody is arguing in favor of retaining Saul, nor is anybody arguing that the results to date are acceptable.

It is easy to discern your thought and intentions, that is why you come up with crazy hypotheticals and moral victories. It is is also why you called people with reasonable expectations delusional. We all hope that Saul can pull a rabbit out of his hat. Don’t be ashamed to be a Saul advocate, it is nothing wrong with that, but is wrong to lie about how you feel on a message board. Be strong and of a good courage and tell us really how you feel and we can have a debate or a meeting of the minds.


Okay, dude. Whatever you say. You know you can tell you're definitely doing a really good job in an argument? When you have to completely disregard what the other person is actually saying and pretend they're saying the exact opposite for your reaction to make any sense.

Also: bonus points for accusing me of making up hypotheticals because I need a moral victory in the very same post where you've decided I'm saying the opposite of what I actually mean in order to convince yourself that you're winning this argument.

I believe that's called "projecting."

But I guess when I say things like this:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I agree completely that Saul didn't put the talent on the floor. Don't dispute that at all.

My take is basically that the late rounds of the MAC tournament and early rounds of the NCAA tournament should be thought of similarly to how the Moneyball crew thought of playoff baseball. Essentially, the sample-size is too small to really count on anything, and the best you can do is build a team that gets you to that point in the season and gives you the opportunity for the chips to fall in your favor.

And I think that's the basic point most folks are making about Groce. We won some really exciting games and went on some great runs, but did so with some uneven if very talented teams. That we went to the Sweet 16 shouldn't alter how we benchmark success for our basketball program. We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


And when I lay out the list of coaches I think we should target, or when I say things like "It's obvious we need to move on, I just think we should try and do so with some class". . .

I'm just being a Saul fanboy who is lying about my personal feelings because, I dunno, you all need somebody to argue with on a subject in which there's actual universal agreement? I mean sure, Saul obviously didn't do the things that I set as my standard for what the OU basketball coach should accomplish, and I've said I think he should be fired a dozen times, but don't let that stop you from pretending I feel the complete opposite of what I've been saying.

I find it super weird how desperate you are to find somebody who wants to keep Saul around. I mean, I've said the exact opposite a bunch, so I guess the best option is just to assume I'm lying and rally the mob to attack points I'm not making?

I get it though man, you're angry about the basketball team and you lack the emotional intelligence to handle that anger rationally, and want somewhere to focus it.

If it helps to focus that anger on me, you're welcome to do so. Here, maybe this will help:

I think Saul Phillips is a better coach than John Groce and I prefer losing records to going to the Sweet 16. Ohio University basketball has never been in better shape and I'm perplexed as to why anybody wants to fire Saul.



Last Edited: 2/13/2019 10:39:39 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 11:01:04 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
. . . And I happen to think it's completely crazy that some people here think that fielding a very competitive team with three close MAC Championship game losses would be considered a failure. . . .


We also have some "completely crazy" folks on the football forum by that standard. I would agree that they are not thinking straight. In this or another like thread, some folks were actually arguing that if OHIO got red hot at tournament time and won the MAC tournament that Saul should still be fired. That's complete lunacy, and would never happen.

I'm beginning to think that FearLeon and his fellow travelers have taken lessons on "making friends and influencing people" from some of the chronic malcontents over on the football side of BA. However, none of them have quite the flare or the witty style of the most notorious of the chronic football complainers.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 11:12:03 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
You're crusading against a completely imagined opposition.


Bingo.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 12:13:13 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 12:27:49 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



As much as we loved the Groce run with the MAC titles and NCAA victories...if you think about it...Akron under Dambrot probably set the standard for what a MAC team should be.

I almost puked typing that.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 12:43:54 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?
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bshot44
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Member Since: 2/12/2012
Post Count: 2,211

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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 2:30:05 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?


Great question. O'Shea doesn't win that MAC title AND nearly upset Florida ... his seat probably would have gotten warm. But he did back that NCAA berth with 19, 19 and 20 win seasons. So he was much more competitive than what we're seeing now.

Saul is nowhere near doing that.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,229

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 3:14:25 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?


Great question. O'Shea doesn't win that MAC title AND nearly upset Florida ... his seat probably would have gotten warm. But he did back that NCAA berth with 19, 19 and 20 win seasons. So he was much more competitive than what we're seeing now.

Saul is nowhere near doing that.


Yeah. I don't think anybody's suggesting Saul's close to doing that. It's obvious Saul's getting the boot. This hypothetical's really just about what the expectations should be going forward.

But yeah, I think we're on the same page with O'Shea. I think it would have been a really tough decision, and frankly, was a tough decision. I think by the time he left everybody knew what his teams were. We were a solid mid-major, somebody nobody wanted to play on our home court or a neutral one, but ultimately a team with a fairly low ceiling.

Last Edited: 2/13/2019 3:15:55 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Cats5
General User

Member Since: 6/14/2017
Post Count: 937

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 3:15:18 PM 
I miss Groce
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bshot44
General User



Member Since: 2/12/2012
Post Count: 2,211

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 4:25:51 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?


Great question. O'Shea doesn't win that MAC title AND nearly upset Florida ... his seat probably would have gotten warm. But he did back that NCAA berth with 19, 19 and 20 win seasons. So he was much more competitive than what we're seeing now.

Saul is nowhere near doing that.


Yeah. I don't think anybody's suggesting Saul's close to doing that. It's obvious Saul's getting the boot. This hypothetical's really just about what the expectations should be going forward.

But yeah, I think we're on the same page with O'Shea. I think it would have been a really tough decision, and frankly, was a tough decision. I think by the time he left everybody knew what his teams were. We were a solid mid-major, somebody nobody wanted to play on our home court or a neutral one, but ultimately a team with a fairly low ceiling.


Agree. O'Shea was kind of growing stale in the same way that Larry Hunter's 17-20 win teams that failed to win MAC tourney were growing stale. (Funny how we'd kill for that now!)

In terms of expectations ... I don't think it's outrageous to expect Dambrot-type results. MAC tourney wins ... MAC tourney title appearances more often than not ... 20+ wins each year. Flirt with Top 25 and at-large discussions from time to time.

There's just a pit in my stomach that Ohio wasn't able to truly capitalize off of 2012 & 2013. I still think had Christian stayed, Ohio would be where Buffalo is or competitive with Buffalo right now. Imagine if Dambrot hung around with Oats and Christian ... MAC would have had a pretty damn strong league (not that it's horrible right now)

But ... sadly, Ohio is. They're horrible. That's just the truth.

I know program's can't sustain three coaches in three years and it came back and bit Ohio in the ass. Unfortunately, Saul never got things back on track.

There's no reason to think the next hire can't restore Ohio to a consistent top 4 MAC team and possibly build it into a consistent title contender.

We'll never be Gonzaga or Wichita State ... and anyone that thinks that is a bit crazy. But there's no reason Ohio can't become the elite program in the MAC ... or at least in the discussion every year.
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BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,420

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 5:01:45 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?


Shut your mouth, we had Zach Kekow
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BillyTheCat
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Post Count: 9,420

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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 5:03:11 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.


I disagree given the resources we pour into the program. Making the NCAA tournament just means winning the MAC Tourney once every five years. When you're spending the most (historically, we have, though we're probably "only" top three now), it's not unreasonable to expect conference championships 20% of the time.


But it is unreasonable given certain circumstances.

Let's say Saul had lost by a point in a MAC Championship game and lost another by 3 points in overtime. Or let's say we lost in the MAC Championship without Antonio Campbell.

Would you deem Saul's tenure a failure then? I think setting such a stringent metric's silly given all the variables.


Agreed. Conference tournament basketball - a one and done set of games - has so many variables that getting to a conference tournament final, and winning it at a set frequency, should not be the only measure of success. In this case in Athens, that he didn't win one in his five year term isn't really the issue. It's where we are right now that is the issue.


Exactly.

I know it was a hypothetical with Saul losing three close MAC championship games ... but if he went 12-17 each year and made runs to the MAC title game and lost ... it would be viewed much differently than him going, say, 20-9 each year and losing in the title game.

Keith Dambrot went 3-6 in his tenure at Akron in MAC title games ... and in those 6 seasons he lost the title game, these were his records

26-7
24-11
24-11
21-12
26-9
24-7

There is a happy medium between March success and non-March success. Dambrot was able to accomplish a good amount of non-March success at Akron .... but also was able to cobble up three MAC tourney titles and 10 post-season berths into NCAA, NIT, CBI, CIT

Saul sniffed one CBI ... and has three losing seasons in five years.

Dambrot failed to win 20 games once in his tenure ... his first year they won 19. The worst MAC season they had was 9-9.

Saul's best MAC record was 11-7.

It just didn't work out for him. Injuries didn't help ... but bottom line, there's no excuse that can justify where this program is in 2019 considering this is the 5th year of the Saul Era.



Yeah, I think this is a good point. My hypothetical didn't mention anything about regular season success, but it's obviously important. You want a coach who puts a competitive team on the floor year in and year out, and given our standing in the MAC historically, I think we should consistently be in the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. Which is to say, in a down year, we should be something like the 5 seed.

I think an interesting case to imagine is what would have happened had Tim O'Shea not gone on that run in '05. His teams in his first three years at Ohio went:

17-11
14-16
10-20

and then he had a 21-10 team that won the MAC tournament.

Which all in all, are pretty underwhelming results with a pretty talented team (Hunter, Flomo, Sonny Johnson) though guard play was lacking.

But he also had wins against UNC and UVA, and played a very good Kent State team close consistently. Let's say Leon Williams' tip-in doesn't go in. When's O'Shea let go?


Great question. O'Shea doesn't win that MAC title AND nearly upset Florida ... his seat probably would have gotten warm. But he did back that NCAA berth with 19, 19 and 20 win seasons. So he was much more competitive than what we're seeing now.

Saul is nowhere near doing that.


Timmy's contract was so large (at the time) and long that no way was OHIO buying him out. The guy had the greatest agent in coaching history. Of course Tom Boeh was also the biggest chump in NCAA history.
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Buck.Cat
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Member Since: 12/21/2017
Post Count: 365

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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/13/2019 8:01:46 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:


We also have some "completely crazy" folks on the football forum by that standard. I would agree that they are not thinking straight. In this or another like thread, some folks were actually arguing that if OHIO got red hot at tournament time and won the MAC tournament that Saul should still be fired. That's complete lunacy, and would never happen.

I'm beginning to think that FearLeon and his fellow travelers have taken lessons on "making friends and influencing people" from some of the chronic malcontents over on the football side of BA. However, none of them have quite the flare or the witty style of the most notorious of the chronic football complainers.




I have said it before but I will repeat it: some people have reasonable expectations for their sports teams. This is not a charity. It's pretty hilarious to hear you calling out others for being crazy. You are after all the one who thought Nathan Rourke was one of the top 10 quarterbacks in the country last season. Did you ever figure out the names in that top 10?
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