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Topic: RE: We're Number 454

Topic: RE: We're Number 454

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D.A.
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 3:10:00 PM

OUPride wrote:

Bobcat Love wrote:

That is absolutely pathetic and disgraceful and you can pin it almost solely on that ridiculous search for a President. 454/500. That's horrific.

Say what you want, but prolific academic institutions don't got hunting for President's @ Texas Tech, New Mexico, and North Dakota. It was sad, pitiful, and humiliating.

The Board of Trustees should be ashamed and frankly so should John Kasich for appointing that band of misfits. Jesus, Bob Glidden they plucked from the music school at Florida State - WTF?

If I run Amazon, I don't go get my next VP of Logistics by plucking a Cashier from Kroger. I either promote from within Amazon (McDavis and his Ohio roots) or I go to another successful company in my space (Vern Alden - Dean of Harvard Business School).

Hell, go get a forward thinking, completely random Harvard, Cornell, or Dartmouth Professor - and make them the President. I can guarantee we'd start ranking much higher than 454.

I mean, this is so laughable yet the cycle continues.....I don't know how those Trustees can sleep at night. I wouldn't entrust them to watch my cat for 5 minutes much less pick a President.

Getting a Dean from Harvard or any other Ivy or Ivy level school is simply not in our cards right now. I'm sorry, but they're not taking the job at Ohio. A dean (but not a provost or research VP) at a Big Ten school? Maybe. The fact that none were included might speak to the incompetence of the search firm or it might speak to how Big Ten or their peer deans viewed the Ohio Presidency right now. Rankings are fickle, and it takes years make a significant move up. Ironically, it seems to be much easier to take a big slide down as both we and Miami did in USNWR yesterday. Even OSU for all their money, research and faculty infrastructure and student selectivity can't crack the USNWR top 50. They've been banging their heads against it like a frickin brick wall this entire century and can't crack it.

I also believe the mechanism for funding the University has a significant impact on the candidate/applicant pool. As the Ohio state share of instruction has been SLASHED over the last 30 years, the Trustees would likely seek candidates that were more "politicians" who understood the need/importance of posturing for more support from the state as well as trying to build an endowment, especially as a core mission of OHIO has been to keep tuition affordable. These candidates likely worked at publics, not privates like Ivies.

Private colleges are not bound by such mechanisms, so the administrators have an entirely different mindset, and operate under entirely different funding model with much higher tuition costs.

Last Edited: 9/18/2018 3:10:54 PM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 3:47:09 PM

Several excellent points made here, but to summarize my thoughts:

-Rankings from different pubs measure different things, thus the variance between WSJ, US News, etc.
-Unless you are in the top 20, it really doesn't matter. Very few students are using that as the key decision-maker.
-With that said, you never want to be in the bottom tier because it provides fodder to your foes and those you may need to convince for state support.
-I didn't choose OU based on who the president was.
-The president does have to be savvy enough to appease key stakeholders (local and state politicians), parents/students, internal groups while essentially running a business.
-I think the aforementioned point is more important than chasing methodology to be higher ranked in outlet rankings.

D.A.
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 4:21:51 PM

JSF wrote:

Bobcat Love wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Getting a Dean from Harvard or any other Ivy or Ivy level school is simply not in our cards right now.

This is an idiotic statement. There are around 32 Ivy League or "Elite Ivies" each having around 12 colleges. You are telling me, that out of 384 people with INSANELY better credentials than this Nellis character, we couldn't nab 3-5 for an interview to be the President of Ohio University?

Honestly? I don't think we can. Ohio- the University and the state- is a colossal mess. The University faces some silly, self-inflicted wounds. The state seems to have no interest in supporting us.

Right now, it's a dead-end job and you'd have to be desperate or a sucker to take it. I don't know how we could lure anyone we'd want for the gig. The candidate pool reflected that. We're radioactive and people know it. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

While I wouldn't go as far as JSF on OHIO being a dead end job, it would definitely take the right person to want to be President of any public university in Ohio not called Ohio State. State share of instruction declines is not the only issue, particularly when you consider that since William Oxley Thompson and the Eagleson Bill at the turn of the twentieth century, Ohio State has always and will always have a legislated advantage on research, funding and most other benefits that could be stacked in its favor. I chuckled when reading a recent thread that lauded tOSU's efforts to make in state tuition free when they have had 120 years of financing benefits that extend to today. It's no wonder that all Ohio publics continue to see their rankings decline. If only I had taken advantage of compound interest when I graduated from college...but I digress.

While these ranking systems can attempt to fairly rank publics and privates, and across the country, you an only realistically compare publics against their peers IN STATE, and when you do that, we perform favorably.

Contrast OHIO to UMASS, for example. UMASS' ranking has increased significantly over the last decade, and it has been because their state share of instruction has been increased PLUS the University is actually able to run a deficit if necessary. In 2017, UMASS had revenues of $1.2BB and state share of $570MM, or 47.5% of it's operating budget. OHIO in 2017 had revenues of $708MM and state share of $164MM, or 23%. And OHIO is required to balance its budget. That is the recipe for all the problems that McDavis and now Nellis have been challenged with righting, like decades of deferred maintenance of buildings, delaying building a substantial endowment until the Promise Lives Campaign, stagnant wages, etc. Its takes the right person to want to fight that battle.

Last Edited: 9/18/2018 4:23:47 PM by D.A.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 4:39:22 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

Several excellent points made here, but to summarize my thoughts:
-Unless you are in the top 20, it really doesn't matter. Very few students are using that as the key decision-maker.

For what it's worth, I think it does matter beyond the top 20. Namely, I think it impacts which employers consider using you as a pipeline to fill recent grad roles. That's where our rankings hurt us most, in my opinion.

I have some insight into the recruitment pipelines because of my job; the difference in the caliber of employers that go on campus at, for instance, Buffalo vs. the caliber that go to Athens isn't insignificant.

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 5:46:47 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Several excellent points made here, but to summarize my thoughts:
-Unless you are in the top 20, it really doesn't matter. Very few students are using that as the key decision-maker.

Do HR reps refer to WSJ rankings of schools when evaluating candidates and the schools they graduated from?

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 6:08:16 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Several excellent points made here, but to summarize my thoughts:
-Unless you are in the top 20, it really doesn't matter. Very few students are using that as the key decision-maker.

Do HR reps refer to WSJ rankings of schools when evaluating candidates and the schools they graduated from?

Maybe not WSJ specifically (unless they work for. . .the Wall Street Journal) but they certainly consider a school's ranking.

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 7:27:57 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Several excellent points made here, but to summarize my thoughts:
-Unless you are in the top 20, it really doesn't matter. Very few students are using that as the key decision-maker.

Do HR reps refer to WSJ rankings of schools when evaluating candidates and the schools they graduated from?

Maybe not WSJ specifically (unless they work for. . .the Wall Street Journal) but they certainly consider a school's ranking.

I've honestly not experienced an HR rep ever talk about the how schools are rated by newspapers/magazine ratings influence a decision to hire a candidate.

Maybe you've seen HR reps choose someone from Buffalo over Ohio because the school is ranked higher on some list, but I think that's an unfortunate way to make a hiring decision.

Now, if the particular program at the school was better known for success -- like the journalism school or an engineering school -- that's another matter.

But a wholesale ranking of a school by WSJ or US News influencing a hiring decision? Weak.

OUPride
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 7:48:15 PM

It may not matter provided a firm or government agency is recruiting at both schools, A school's reputation, however, absolutely affects the breadth and quality of who's recruiting there in the first place.

And school reputation definitely matters with graduate schools. All other things roughly equal (gpa, gre scores, references) the Michigan grad is going to get that spot in a Ph.D program at Chicago or Yale over the Ohio State grad who's going to get it over the Ohio grad. And then there's the matter of being in the AAU club. Those Michigan and Ohio State professors are far more likely to be known by and possibly have a working relationship with the professors at Chicago or Yale than the Ohio or Cincinnati prof, and that counts when references are being considered.

Last Edited: 9/18/2018 9:27:23 PM by OUPride

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/18/2018 11:34:08 PM

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

Maddog13
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 5:36:48 AM

My personal research indicates that there is no consensus regarding the methods used to evaluate what makes one school better than another, thus rendering any such report or reports subjective at best. Since the Wall Street Journal is motivated one hundred percent by the bottom line, I think that one should simply follow the money; perhaps, Ohio has been lapse when it comes to advertising in the Wall Street Journal of late. Perhaps, dyeing the Hocking River gold might be another way to get the attention of the editors of the college review.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 8:44:34 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

I think the US News is pretty generally regarded as the go-to source for college rankings. The degree to which that impacts company hiring decision, I don't know. That said, I've had plenty of clients reference the list to me and I'm very confident that the US News rankings are a resource talent acquisition teams use to determine which campuses to visit.

For a school like Ohio, I think those rankings carry and outsized weight. We are a regional university with little name recognition beyond the midwest. In New York, 8 out of 10 people assume I went to Ohio State when I tell them I went to Ohio University. A strong US News ranking is a way to let companies know we exist.

OUPride
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 9:22:13 AM

Other than Forbes, which was literally created to diminish the role of public universities, I think most of the rankings have some merit. The metrics they use such as selectivity, faculty quality, student-faculty ratios, retention and graduation rates and financial resources do determine the quality of the education that a student can get and the reputation of the university, particularly the farther one gets from its home state.

That being said, I think the USNWR is both important and flawed. It's important because it's the singular ranking that most parents, prospective students and potential employers are going to look at to judge the school. It's flawed because it does favor private universities over publics (though not in the ludicrous levels that Forbes does).

USNWR is most useful when looking at privates versus privates and publics vesus publics. I think it matters a great deal to potential students and employers whether a school is a top 5 public versus a top 20 public versus a top 50 public versus a top 100 public. As someone else noted above, the state of Ohio made decisions 150 years ago that pretty much ensured that only one public in the state is going to be top 20, and it ain't Ohio. That being said, I think Ohio should absolutely be a or close to a top 50 public in the USNWR rankings, and the fact that it's seemingly on the fence to falling out of the top 100 publics is serious cause for concern. I don't blame Nellis. I blame his predecessors, but if his administration doesn't turn around the decline and start climbing up towards a top 50 public ranking, I'll consider him a failure.

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 10:23:12 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

This is an interesting point that I agree with from Forbes:

"Perhaps you are thinking that the Columbia alumna is worth the extra money. If so, you should remember that the cost of an item is directly proportional to its scarcity. Insisting on hiring from top schools is like insisting on buying airplane tickets when there are only a few seats left: you pay more and only find middle seats. The top 50 U.S. News colleges, in aggregate, have roughly 600,000 undergraduate students � only 3% of the 20 million undergraduate students in the U.S. And with job placement rates that often surpass 90% for the more coveted fields such as business and engineering, unless you can afford the luxury of wasting money to pay absolute top dollar, you will likely get an average student from a top school, but still pay much more than you would for top students from an average school."

I still firmly believe that hiring decisions should be based on the experience and merits of the individual and not heavily weighted on the school they attended. That's what I've experienced directly and with the hiring processes at the companies I've worked with. But I also know that some companies seem to only focus on candidates from top schools, which as this article states, may be the wrong way to approach hiring.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 10:30:39 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

Nobody is arguing with that point. I agree with it completely, and in fact, have founded a company that's philosophically motivated by that exact premise.

What I'm saying though is that in reality, for entry level jobs in particular, employers place a lot of emphasis on school rankings. There is a reason companies like Google, Goldman Sachs, and McKinsey aren't on campus recruiting in Athens, and it is largely that OU doesn't have a particularly strong academic reputation. Higher rankings in places like US News, the Wall Street Journal and Forbes would help to change that.

rpbobcat
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 10:36:50 AM

I have a small Civil Engineering/Land Surveying company in N.J.

When I've interviewed for entry level positions,I've never looked at college rankings.
I may give a bit more weight to graduate engineers from certain universities,especially if they are primarily engineering schools.
This is because those schools tend to have more technically "heavy" course requirements.

I do pay a lot of attention to the specific courses an applicant took in college and "how they spent their summer vacations".

Last Edited: 9/19/2018 10:37:29 AM by rpbobcat

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/19/2018 10:48:54 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

I didn't take this as a big disagreement at all, just a good discussion. I will share one personal example, though to your last point:

Back when we had print copies of resumes, I shared mine at a career fair at old Baker with a number of companies. Weeks later, I got a call from IBM that they wanted to fly me to NY for an interview. Put me up in a hotel. Paid for a rental car and meals. Very rare for an entry-level position and pretty unheard of among my peers and professors. I was honored/flattered by it.

Didn't get the job (which was fine because I was probably one of the few people who didn't want to move to NY), but I think big companies do find ways to find good students -- even at OU -- even if schools aren't ranked highly on these lists.

David E Brightbill
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/22/2018 8:26:23 AM

Maybe you should look at the College of Business national ranking.

Mike Johnson
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/22/2018 7:43:55 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

I absolutely agree about a school's reputation being a factor. I question how much a WSJ/US News ranking (outside of the very top of the list) affects that reputation.

Had a similar experience. Ford interviewed me on campus, then invited me to fly to Detroit where I toured HQ, lunched in a white-glove dining room and toured an assembly plant. All that with Ford knowing the Army was waiting for me. At day's end, Ford said to let them know after I completed military service. (I didn't because I went with GE in Schenectady, NY.)

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

Campus Flow
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/23/2018 11:19:35 AM

David E Brightbill wrote:

Maybe you should look at the College of Business national ranking.

Good job pointing this out David. Bloomberg Business Week survey on best undergraduate business schools has OU ranked #22 in the country by employers and way above Miami who is coming in at #59. The online MBA program is ranked in the Top 15.

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-best-undergrad-bu... /

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

DelBobcat
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/24/2018 10:21:33 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

David E Brightbill wrote:

Maybe you should look at the College of Business national ranking.

One thing I always wondered... Why is our B-school not named? Is there no donor who is willing to fork over the money? The Walter School of Business sounds pretty good.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

rpbobcat
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/25/2018 9:07:27 AM

In today's (9/25) The Post there's an article where Nellis talks about this.

DelBobcat
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/25/2018 2:07:10 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

In today's (9/25) The Post there's an article where Nellis talks about this.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2018/09/ohio-univer...

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Ohio69
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/25/2018 4:48:26 PM

One of these bizarre rankings gives weight to salaries reported by alums to a web site , payscale.com if I recall correctly. Good grief. We are supposed to take that seriously?

Meh - stick with US News for now and ignore these newbies. They are bizarre.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OhioStunter
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/27/2018 6:42:06 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

Exactly. Methodology on each of these is different. Any employer that puts too much stake on some of these rankings vs. the abilities of each individual candidate is an employer that is missing out on some great talent.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: We're Number 454

Posted: 9/27/2018 9:39:25 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Just want to make sure you're not misunderstanding the point I was making about how these rankings impact employer hiring decisions.

It's not that employers think these rankings hold more weight than their own interview processes, or that they place more emphasis on these rankings than on the abilities of individuals.

It's that employers use these rankings to help inform their campus recruiting strategies.

Low rankings hurt OU students because it gives them fewer opportunities to prove their individual abilities with top companies. Companies can't recruit on every campus, and academic rankings play a big factor in where they choose to recruit.

Last Edited: 9/27/2018 9:41:23 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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