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Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......

Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
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The Optimist
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Member Since: 3/16/2007
Location: Akron (sleeper agent)
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 2/28/2019 4:06:43 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Maybe in the future they'll use drones or biological weapons or biological weapon drones


Biological weapons are bad we should ban those.


So is sarcasm. And young people. Let's ban them, too.


Require young people to undergo a background check to use sarcasm.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 2/28/2019 6:30:01 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
And I believe that if someone wants to commit an act such as this, they will find a way, and that as time goes on, they will find more and mre effective ways. Biological weapons, and drones, are merely two examples of things we might see in the future. There are certainly many more than you or I could even imagine. That is why I think we should try to identify why these sorts of events are becoming increasingly common, and find a way to decrease the number of people wanting to commit them.


And as we've already discussed, I don't think that limiting access to guns precludes somebody from also taking other steps. In fact, I've said as much many times throughout this thread.

Frankly, I find your argument here completely disingenuous and think it's representative of how conservatives generally approach gun control. They claim support, but then out of the other side of their mouth insist it won't matter at all. Which may well be true. But there's substantial data suggesting otherwise, and much less data supporting your opinion.

And regardless of the outcome, it's also a completely irrational response to addressing a current problem to insist the conversation instead be about a future, hypothetical problem.

Gun violence is currently a problem in our country. We should address it in many, many ways. That one approach isn't a fix-all should not preclude anybody from taking that step. Improvement and progress is almost always incremental.

The House is about to pass gun control legislation that the vast majority of Americans support. Senate Republicans won't support it, and it will die. There's a party that's trying to do something. There's another doing nothing at all.

First of all, I'm a Libertarian, not a Conservative, and yes, they are very different.

The primary difference between our positions is the difference between treating symptoms and searching for an underlying cause, so that it can be addressed. Treating symptoms can be helpful, but doesn't address the underlying problem. I have already said that I support reasonable gun control measures, and I think there are some interesting ideas being pushed at this time. I view gun control as a useful temporary improvement, but since it doesn't address the underlying cause, it obviously can never be a solution.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 1,018

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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 3/1/2019 7:59:28 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
And I believe that if someone wants to commit an act such as this, they will find a way, and that as time goes on, they will find more and mre effective ways. Biological weapons, and drones, are merely two examples of things we might see in the future. There are certainly many more than you or I could even imagine. That is why I think we should try to identify why these sorts of events are becoming increasingly common, and find a way to decrease the number of people wanting to commit them.


And as we've already discussed, I don't think that limiting access to guns precludes somebody from also taking other steps. In fact, I've said as much many times throughout this thread.

Frankly, I find your argument here completely disingenuous and think it's representative of how conservatives generally approach gun control. They claim support, but then out of the other side of their mouth insist it won't matter at all. Which may well be true. But there's substantial data suggesting otherwise, and much less data supporting your opinion.

And regardless of the outcome, it's also a completely irrational response to addressing a current problem to insist the conversation instead be about a future, hypothetical problem.

Gun violence is currently a problem in our country. We should address it in many, many ways. That one approach isn't a fix-all should not preclude anybody from taking that step. Improvement and progress is almost always incremental.

The House is about to pass gun control legislation that the vast majority of Americans support. Senate Republicans won't support it, and it will die. There's a party that's trying to do something. There's another doing nothing at all.

First of all, I'm a Libertarian, not a Conservative, and yes, they are very different.

The primary difference between our positions is the difference between treating symptoms and searching for an underlying cause, so that it can be addressed. Treating symptoms can be helpful, but doesn't address the underlying problem. I have already said that I support reasonable gun control measures, and I think there are some interesting ideas being pushed at this time. I view gun control as a useful temporary improvement, but since it doesn't address the underlying cause, it obviously can never be a solution.



I mean, I guess? I think the actual difference between our opinions is that I'm suggesting we treat a symptom because there is no underlying cause. At least not in any actionable way. Rather, there are hundreds of them, and there's no single treatment. They have to be unpacked one at a time, and we have to start somewhere.

I have a suggestion on where to start. You agree, but also don't really, because you think there is a core issue here (lack of religion) and until that's addressed, everything else is just tinkering with symptoms and isn't an actual solution. Where we actually disagree, is I think it's ridiculous for anybody to assume there's a core underlying issue that causes violence, and that it's addressable. I think we have no choice but to treat the symptoms, because the core problem isn't as neat or simple as 'lack of religion.' I think the world is a complex, messy place, and is a fool"s errand to sit around waiting for the underlying issue to show itself.





Last Edited: 3/2/2019 5:38:33 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 3/2/2019 8:09:48 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, I guess? I think the actual difference between our opinions is that I'm suggesting we treat a symptom because there is no underlying cause. At least not in any actionable way. Rather, there are hundreds of them, and there's no single treatment. They have to be unpacked one at a time, and we have to start somewhere.

I have a suggestion on where to start. You agree, but also don't really, because you think there is a core issue here (lack of religion) and until that's addressed, everything else is just tinkering with symptoms and isn't an actual solution. Where we actually disagree, is I think it's ridiculous for anybody to assume there's a core underlying issue that causes violence, and that it's addressable. I think we have no choice but to treat the symptoms, because the core problem isn't as neat or simple as 'lack of religion.' I think the world is a complex, messy place, and is a fool"s errand to sit around waiting for the underlying issue to show itself.

I would express it as a "lack of an over-riding system of morality". In the past that came from religion, and the problem is that as the culture has become increasingly atheistic, nothing seems to have replaced it. The modern morality these days seems more concerned with political correctness and climate change rather than basic human rights. I'm not about to suggest forcing religion on people, but I do think we need to find a way to give young people a purpose, and to educate them on basic morality. The only other alternative is to just accept that this kind of thing will happen, and try to make it marginally more difficult.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 1,018

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 3/3/2019 2:16:19 PM 
L.C. wrote:

I would express it as a "lack of an over-riding system of morality". In the past that came from religion, and the problem is that as the culture has become increasingly atheistic, nothing seems to have replaced it.


Atheism has increased in the United States, and the violent crime rate has decreased. Over the last 25 years, the violent crime rate has either decreased by half (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-a... /) or three quarters (https://www.wanttoknow.info/g/violent_crime_rates_reduction ) depending on whose research you lend more credence.

You seem to think that a lack of an over-riding system of morality leads to crime; how do you account for the fact that crime rates are close to an all time low, if not at an all time low? Wouldn't your theory imply the opposite?

L.C. wrote:

The modern morality these days seems more concerned with political correctness and climate change rather than basic human rights.


You lost me. Not sure how we got to 'political correctness' and 'climate change' -- can you explain further?


L.C. wrote:

I'm not about to suggest forcing religion on people, but I do think we need to find a way to give young people a purpose, and to educate them on basic morality. The only other alternative is to just accept that this kind of thing will happen, and try to make it marginally more difficult.


The point I've been making, and one that I think is supported pretty compellingly by the actual data, is that the biggest single problem is guns themselves. As I've illustrated a couple of different ways, the crime rate's actually low. The reason the murder rate's high despite that is that we're drowning in guns, and guns turn run of the mill violent crime into murders.

Our violent crime rate's not drastically different than that of other countries -- Great Britain, comes to mind -- and yet, our murder rate's substantially higher. It's not a stretch to draw a line between the actual tools being used in said violent crimes, and how efficiently those tools kill.

To be clear, it's sort of too late. We can't really put the cat back in the bag given how many guns there are floating around, as I don't think there's a realistic political option that leads to a truly drastic reduction in gun ownership, so all of these suggestions are, unfortunately, just working to make things marginally more difficult. You're 100% right about that.

But I just want to be clear about something: that's kind of your fault. I don't mean that to be overly accusatory or anything, I'm just trying to make a point. The reason we're tinkering around the edges here is because a huge portion of folks in America -- almost all of them Conservative or Libertarian, are willing to blame gun violence on everything but guns. And you all are a substantial political coalition that is powerful enough to actually shift the conversation.

It's because of people like you that the national conversation on this doesn't accept the obvious: that lots of guns lead to lots of gun deaths. Instead, we have to try and unpack ridiculous notions like how the rise of atheism has impacted the murder rate before we can take any action.

The data makes a very compelling argument that guns are the problem. Americans don't seem to be driven to violence at a higher rate than in other Western countries, we just have a lot of guns, and guns are really good at killing people. It's not at all clear to me why this is a controversial point.

And yet, folks like you won't acknowledge that obvious point, and instead insist the 'disease' that needs to be treated is 'lack of morality.'

Which brings us back to the core of our discussion, namely the symptom vs. disease debate. The actual data shows a very clear correlation between guns and murder. But because there's a political coalition in our country that's powerful enough to ensure that banning guns, or even making any substantial changes around who can own guns, isn't a possibility. And without that possibility on the table, there's no way to treat the disease.

And ultimately, that's why it's really hard to see your argument here as anything but disingenuous. You're lecturing others for treating a symptom rather than the disease, while also contorting yourself in ridiculous ways to avoid acknowledging the obvious cause of the 'disease' as suggested by actual, hard data.

In other words: you're part of the reason we're in a position to only treat symptoms. A coalition you're a part of has taken the option of treating the disease off of the table.

Everything else we're discussing -- atheism, mental health, poverty, the alienating impact of the internet -- those are all symptoms. As I've said, there are hundreds of factors and it's basically impossible to unpack them all or even to really understand where one ends and another begins. But one thing that's super clear is that all of them -- whether it's lack of morality or lack of mental health care -- all end in the same place: with guns and death.

And until a majority of people on the right are willing to acknowledge that and actually do something about it, we're just gonna be tinkering around the margins. But in the meantime, the people who insist on ignoring the obvious issue here don't get to lecture others for "treating symptoms instead of the disease" or criticize the morality of others as being more concerned with 'political correctness' and 'climate change' than with murder.





Last Edited: 3/3/2019 2:31:03 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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