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Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......

Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 2:40:35 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Meanwhile 3 rapes on Athens campus in over 1 week. Maybe we should return to community policing initiates instead of writing traffic tickets and buying armored vehicles.


Sounds like this is news that needs released to every high school in Ohio. So based on that, if I had a daughter she would likely not be attending Ohio and wherever she would carry mace and a 9 mm. Jefferson, "keep your guns close and maintain your proficiency with them." Surprising to some, given instruction, young ladies gain proficiency more quickly than young men.



It's a problem at every university across the country, not just Ohio. And mace and a 9mm are not the solution. Most rapes are not random attacks on a woman when she is walking home from a party. They are significant others, friends, colleagues, and other people they trust. And men can be, and are, raped too.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 3:02:08 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:


Most rapes are not random attacks on a woman when she is walking home from a party. They are significant others, friends, colleagues, and other people they trust. And men can be, and are, raped too.


The Post "prints" a column whenever there is a sexual assault on campus,or involving a student off campus.

In almost every case,the victim knew the attacker.

What gets tricky are the cases where the two had a relationship,including sex, and the female invited the male in,then accused the male of rape.


Last Edited: 9/6/2018 3:02:36 PM by rpbobcat

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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 3:17:48 PM 
Not to discount these reports at all, but I wonder if the #MeToo movement and the public encouragement to step up and report these offenses is providing a different feeling that this crime is occurring more than before at OU.

It very well may be.

But it may also be the result of the bravery of victims for stepping forward whereas, in the past, at any campus or workplace, this might not have been reported.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 3:41:35 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Not to discount these reports at all, but I wonder if the #MeToo movement and the public encouragement to step up and report these offenses is providing a different feeling that this crime is occurring more than before at OU.

It very well may be.

But it may also be the result of the bravery of victims for stepping forward whereas, in the past, at any campus or workplace, this might not have been reported.


O.U. has a very active "F_ _ k rape culture" survivor advocacy group.

Their involvement seemed to spur an increase in people reporting alleged sexual abuse.


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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:10:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?

The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.

I don't really follow this issue, so I don't know the answers here, but while I appreciate your answer, it leads me to another question. Were those guards heavily armed? For example, were they wearing bulletproof vests, or were they just wearing a uniform, and armed with a pistol?


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:15:44 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.


Well if that doesn’t suffice, I’m sure there will be more to come. There was also a heavy police presence at the Las Vegas concert. It didn’t help much either.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:16:26 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?

The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.

I don't really follow this issue, so I don't know the answers here, but while I appreciate your answer, it leads me to another question. Were those guards heavily armed? For example, were they wearing bulletproof vests, or were they just wearing a uniform, and armed with a pistol?


I suspect none were wearing bullet-proof vests and were armed with pistols. I know that to be the case at Pulse, but am unsure about the Navy Yard and Columbine examples and haven't been able to confirm on way or another with Google.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 4:17:20 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:18:15 PM 
L.C. wrote:


I don't really follow this issue, so I don't know the answers here, but while I appreciate your answer, it leads me to another question. Were those guards heavily armed? For example, were they wearing bulletproof vests, or were they just wearing a uniform, and armed with a pistol?


By this logic, we'll soon see cops in tanks. Oh, wait, we already do.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2016/05/10/...

Yet somehow we have many, many times as many gun deaths.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/1639941...
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:54:02 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Not to discount these reports at all, but I wonder if the #MeToo movement and the public encouragement to step up and report these offenses is providing a different feeling that this crime is occurring more than before at OU.

It very well may be.

But it may also be the result of the bravery of victims for stepping forward whereas, in the past, at any campus or workplace, this might not have been reported.


Crime has generally fallen everywhere over the last several decades. I'd say there are also many less rapes than there were in the past, but victims are more likely to report them. About 1 in 5 women have been raped and many more have experienced some form of sexual violence. Those are low-end numbers, considering not every woman is willing to talk about such a traumatic experience.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 4:54:07 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
L.C. wrote:


I don't really follow this issue, so I don't know the answers here, but while I appreciate your answer, it leads me to another question. Were those guards heavily armed? For example, were they wearing bulletproof vests, or were they just wearing a uniform, and armed with a pistol?


By this logic, we'll soon see cops in tanks. Oh, wait, we already do.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2016/05/10/...

Yet somehow we have many, many times as many gun deaths.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/1639941...

I'm not surprised at the gun deaths. I do think that this is a relatively temporary problem, however, and that in the future gun deaths will decline, as other more effective forms of mass murder become more common. I do favor reasonable gun controls, but I don't have any illusion that it will change the rate of mass murders. As gun murders decline, I expect bombings to grow, and as some others have mentioned, drones most likely have a bright future in this area, too.

I think the growth of mass murder is simply an anticipated consequence of the decline of religion. As we liberate ourselves from the archaic set of morals given to us by religious organizations, we are left with a vacuum. Since there is no longer absolute "right" or absolute "wrong", we have a world where people are free to choose their own moral values. It is to be expected that some people will choose a moral code that has unfortunate consequences for others around them, and we need to just accept that this is a natural part of a modern, atheistic society, and figure out how we are going to deal with it, because it is going to get worse, not better.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 5:11:26 PM 
Oh my.

I personally believe we can attribute a great deal of society's hatred, bigotry and violence to religion. This has been true throughout history. Whose "absolute right" is right?



Last Edited: 9/6/2018 5:12:51 PM by SBH

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 5:23:16 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
L.C. wrote:


I don't really follow this issue, so I don't know the answers here, but while I appreciate your answer, it leads me to another question. Were those guards heavily armed? For example, were they wearing bulletproof vests, or were they just wearing a uniform, and armed with a pistol?


By this logic, we'll soon see cops in tanks. Oh, wait, we already do.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2016/05/10/...

Yet somehow we have many, many times as many gun deaths.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/1639941...

I'm not surprised at the gun deaths. I do think that this is a relatively temporary problem, however, and that in the future gun deaths will decline, as other more effective forms of mass murder become more common. I do favor reasonable gun controls, but I don't have any illusion that it will change the rate of mass murders. As gun murders decline, I expect bombings to grow, and as some others have mentioned, drones most likely have a bright future in this area, too.

I think the growth of mass murder is simply an anticipated consequence of the decline of religion. As we liberate ourselves from the archaic set of morals given to us by religious organizations, we are left with a vacuum. Since there is no longer absolute "right" or absolute "wrong", we have a world where people are free to choose their own moral values. It is to be expected that some people will choose a moral code that has unfortunate consequences for others around them, and we need to just accept that this is a natural part of a modern, atheistic society, and figure out how we are going to deal with it, because it is going to get worse, not better.


There are many countries that are far less religious than the US, but have much lower rates of mass murder. How do you explain that?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 5:33:11 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
There are many countries that are far less religious than the US, but have much lower rates of mass murder. How do you explain that?

I would suggest that's something to examine, and perhaps learn from. Perhaps they have some other cultural mechanisms for helping to assure that the moral codes that individuals adopt are within acceptable bounds. I do think that taking away guns will not solve the problem, as people who wish to commit mass murder will find other ways. Reducing the number of guns, however, will probably significantly reduce the suicide rate, since most of those are committed with guns, and will also obviously decrease the rate of deaths by accidental discharge.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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DublinCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 7:08:01 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
There are many countries that are far less religious than the US, but have much lower rates of mass murder. How do you explain that?

I would suggest that's something to examine, and perhaps learn from. Perhaps they have some other cultural mechanisms for helping to assure that the moral codes that individuals adopt are within acceptable bounds. I do think that taking away guns will not solve the problem, as people who wish to commit mass murder will find other ways. Reducing the number of guns, however, will probably significantly reduce the suicide rate, since most of those are committed with guns, and will also obviously decrease the rate of deaths by accidental discharge.


I suspect a lot of countries with strict state run media often do not report reality. I have no idea of the numbers in Germany. However, I stayed at a hotel in a fairly small city where such an event had taken place days before my visit. The only way I knew or even found out about the incident was by the nervous actions of other guests and asking questions. I suspect most people a block or two away knew very little if anything.


OU87

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 7:36:25 PM 
DublinCat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
There are many countries that are far less religious than the US, but have much lower rates of mass murder. How do you explain that?

I would suggest that's something to examine, and perhaps learn from. Perhaps they have some other cultural mechanisms for helping to assure that the moral codes that individuals adopt are within acceptable bounds. I do think that taking away guns will not solve the problem, as people who wish to commit mass murder will find other ways. Reducing the number of guns, however, will probably significantly reduce the suicide rate, since most of those are committed with guns, and will also obviously decrease the rate of deaths by accidental discharge.


I suspect a lot of countries with strict state run media often do not report reality. I have no idea of the numbers in Germany. However, I stayed at a hotel in a fairly small city where such an event had taken place days before my visit. The only way I knew or even found out about the incident was by the nervous actions of other guests and asking questions. I suspect most people a block or two away knew very little if anything.


Germany does not have state run media, so I'm not sure I follow.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 7:56:05 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
There are many countries that are far less religious than the US, but have much lower rates of mass murder. How do you explain that?

I do think that taking away guns will not solve the problem, as people who wish to commit mass murder will find other ways.


I always find this line of thinking really odd.

Shouldn't the objective be to make murdering people harder to do? And isn't one rational first step in doing so reducing access to the tool that the vast majority of mass murders choose to commit mass murders with?

You mentioned prior that you thought that reducing access to guns would just lead to an increase in the use of bombs. Isn't it much harder to build a bomb? The Columbine kids built bombs and detonated them in the school; all of the deaths were from firearms. There was a bombing at my Subway stop a few years ago in Chelsea. No deaths. A car bomb failed to detonate in Times Square. No deaths. A pipe bomb only partially detonated in the New York City subway last year. There were no deaths. That guy brought a shoe bomb on the plane. Couldn't detonate it. No deaths. Even the Boston Marathon bombing, as horrific as the injuries were, only resulted in three deaths despite being detonated in a crowd.

Point being, it's really hard to make a bomb. And even successful bombings are rarely as deadly as mass shootings.

I mean, by contrast, three people were shot dead in a mass shooting in Cincinnati today. It's barely a news story.

It is far, far easier to kill with guns. The notion that if it's not guns it'll just be something else seems far from proven.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 8:02:21 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DublinCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 8:04:11 PM 
Right, lots of open discourse and debate in the public media. lol


OU87

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 8:08:09 PM 
DublinCat wrote:
Right, lots of open discourse and debate in the public media. lol


Are we talking about German media? I honestly just don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the German media doesn't cover reality?

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 8:12:38 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DublinCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 8:31:49 PM 
Its horrible anytime someone decides to take an innocent life. The Cincinnati tragedy continues to dominate the news as it should. Fortunately there were several very brave armed officers on the scene to quickly put an end to it and prevent an even worse tragedy.

A quick search on machete deaths and you will find more of these type murders that total more than all the recent school shootings combeined. They are reported; but neglected from a large portion of the national media so you may not even be aware they continue to happen. Below is a small collection from the past year. A quick read and you will see most did not involve a gun.

https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=MS+13+Gang+Deaths+Usa&...

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 8:52:15 PM by DublinCat


OU87

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 10:15:04 PM 
DublinCat wrote:
Its horrible anytime someone decides to take an innocent life. The Cincinnati tragedy continues to dominate the news as it should. Fortunately there were several very brave armed officers on the scene to quickly put an end to it and prevent an even worse tragedy.

A quick search on machete deaths and you will find more of these type murders that total more than all the recent school shootings combeined. They are reported; but neglected from a large portion of the national media so you may not even be aware they continue to happen. Below is a small collection from the past year. A quick read and you will see most did not involve a gun.

https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=MS+13+Gang+Deaths+Usa&...


I still have absolutely no idea what you're getting at.

Since 2012 there have been just over 75,000 homicides in the US. In that same time, there have been almost 210* known MS-13 murders.

Which means that MS-13 machete attacks account for -- at most -- 0.002% of homicides over the last 6 years. And that's assuming that 100% of those known MS-13 murders were committed with a machete.

But you're right, the media is neglecting the huge, huge MS-13 story in favor of sensationalizing gun violence, which accounts for ~50,000 of those murders. They should definitely be focusing more on the statistically insignificant threat of MS-13 and the scourge of mass stabbings that's reaching epidemic proportions. Good call.

I sure am glad we don't live in a country with state run media that doesn't report reality. It's much better living in the good ol' US of A, where half of our media, for purely political purposes, spends months stoking irrational fears about a gang that is responsible for -- statistically speaking -- 0% of US murders.

(* that number's according to the Daily Caller: https://dailycaller.com/2018/05/17/how-many-ms-13-gang-me... /)




Last Edited: 9/6/2018 10:38:39 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DublinCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 10:37:44 PM 
We had a mass (multiple innocent people) machete attack at a restaurant in Columbus along with another vehicle attempt at OSU similar to the one in NYC. Fortunately a brave armed officer ended both Ohio incidents or they would have been much worse.

If you read the linked articles you will see most of those murders across multiple states were teenage kids. See how many dead teenagers you can count in the past year. (12 months) You will find that total higher than number of murdered school shooting victims in the last (12 months). Which was the point.

Both are bad, both result in dead school kids. One gets a lot of press. The largest number seems to be news to you. Read the articles, total the numbers and then you will know too!

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 10:45:36 PM by DublinCat


OU87

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 10:43:36 PM 
SBH wrote:
Oh my.

I personally believe we can attribute a great deal of society's hatred, bigotry and violence to religion. This has been true throughout history. Whose "absolute right" is right?





👍🏽
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 10:49:29 PM 
DublinCat wrote:
We had a mass (multiple innocent people) machete attack at a restaurant in Columbus along with another vehicle attempt at OSU similar to the one in NYC. Fortunately a brave armed officer ended both Ohio incidents or they would have been much worse.

If you read the linked articles you will see most of those murders across multiple states were teenage kids. See how many dead teenagers you can count in the past year. (12 months) You will find that total higher than number of murdered school shooting victims in the last (12 months). Which was the point.

Both are bad, both result in dead school kids. One gets a lot of press. The largest number seems to be news to you. Read the articles, total the numbers and then you will know too!


This is called "cherry picking statistics to support a narrative." And it's not even a narrative that makes the slightest bit of sense given the conversation here.

School shootings get attention because they are representative of an epidemic of gun violence. Knife attacks get less attention because they. . .are not. They represent a small percentage of homicides nationwide.

And I say this as somebody who thinks the media focuses far too much on school shootings and far too little on gun violence in general.

But the idea that the media should focus as much attention on machete attacks as they do on gun violence -- or even on school shootings -- is silly. And the statistics I presented illustrate why. Gun violence in our country is a serious public health issue. Machete attacks are a statistically insignificant percentage of murders.

But, regardless, I still don't understand your point. This has been a conversation about whether or not armed guards/police prevent mass shootings. And for some reason you chimed in to say "Yeah, but what the media doesn't tell you is that far, far fewer people are killed by immigrants with machetes."

Cool.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 11:15:44 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DublinCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/7/2018 12:07:05 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

But, regardless, I still don't understand your point. This has been a conversation about whether or not armed guards/police prevent mass shootings. And for some reason you chimed in to say "Yeah, but what the media doesn't tell you is that far, far fewer people are killed by immigrants with machetes."

Cool.


1- No where did I mention anything about immigrants. You may have a Comprehension issue?

2- You said mass shooting happen here more frequently. I simply stated I was there just after it happened in another country and it was not reported in the national or local media. It still happened. Who knows how often.

3- As a former Cincinnatian who worked downtown I was saddened to see today’s events. Fortunately a good person with a gun ended it early before more people lost their life.

4-No cherry picking. Just real facts. More school kids died this year from the actions of one particular now US based gang than all the school shootings the same year combined. Mostly using knives and machetes as their preferred method.

Unfortunately evil is real. Always has been always will be. Pipe bombs, drones, pressure cookers, fertilizer bombs, machetes, knifes, gums, cars, trucks etc... Evil people find a way.

Thankfully there are people in Athens prepared to protect fellow bobcat fans. Just like today in Cincinnati. They cant prevent every situation but hopefully save as many as possible.

If I knew you were going to “Completely misquote” what I said by making up quotes I would not have responded. Now I know not to waste my time.

Last Edited: 9/7/2018 12:13:19 AM by DublinCat


OU87

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/7/2018 6:48:27 AM 
DublinCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

But, regardless, I still don't understand your point. This has been a conversation about whether or not armed guards/police prevent mass shootings. And for some reason you chimed in to say "Yeah, but what the media doesn't tell you is that far, far fewer people are killed by immigrants with machetes."

Cool.


1- No where did I mention anything about immigrants. You may have a Comprehension issue?

2- You said mass shooting happen here more frequently. I simply stated I was there just after it happened in another country and it was not reported in the national or local media. It still happened. Who knows how often.

3- As a former Cincinnatian who worked downtown I was saddened to see today’s events. Fortunately a good person with a gun ended it early before more people lost their life.

4-No cherry picking. Just real facts. More school kids died this year from the actions of one particular now US based gang than all the school shootings the same year combined. Mostly using knives and machetes as their preferred method.

Unfortunately evil is real. Always has been always will be. Pipe bombs, drones, pressure cookers, fertilizer bombs, machetes, knifes, gums, cars, trucks etc... Evil people find a way.

Thankfully there are people in Athens prepared to protect fellow bobcat fans. Just like today in Cincinnati. They cant prevent every situation but hopefully save as many as possible.

If I knew you were going to “Completely misquote” what I said by making up quotes I would not have responded. Now I know not to waste my time.


1. You linked to a Bing search for "MS-13 Gang Deaths" -- MS-13 is a gang composed almost primarily of immigrants. Or as you describe it, "now US based gang." Explain my comprehension issues?

2. You didn't simply state anything. You stated, in a very confusing, jumbled way that you think "state run media" in other countries don't report reality, and now seem to be implying by saying "who knows how often" that the data from other countries isn't reliable. We know how often mass killings happen in other western countries; there's ample data available. Others have already provided data illustrating that. It's far less than in the United States. If you care to refute that, it's on you to provide data to that end.

3. Okay.

4. You completely moved the goalposts and are comparing apples to oranges. In a conversation about mass shootings at large, you came in to compare deaths perpetrated by a gang using knives to a subset of the deaths from a mass shooting over an arbitrary period of time because otherwise, the data doesn't remotely support the conclusion you've drawn.

There is a very clear correlation between gun ownership and deaths from gun violence. Data to illustrate that's been presented in this thread. People have suggested -- including yourself -- that reducing gun ownership would merely lead to violence by other means, but nobody has been able to show any examples of that happening. I've illustrated, with actual data, how far fewer people are killed with knives and bombs by using examples relevant to the discussion about mass killings.

You've just shown how a gang has been responsible for murders. It's not a relevant comparison in any way. They were not mass killings and do not meet the definition that was previously discussed as to what constituted a mass killing. You are comparing apples to a small subset of oranges, because you have an opinion you really want to be right.

Your point -- that evil people find away -- is nihilistic garbage that isn't supported by any data, regardless of how hard you try and manipulate it. Preach all you want about the tragedy of lost life and the bravery of the good people who put their lives on the line to protect us, but you're arguing in favor of doing nothing. And your argument in favor of doing nothing is flimsy and transparent.

You're using 0.002% of murders in the US illustrate that "evil people will always find a way", even though those 0.002% of murders represent a completely different type of crime that's not in any way comparable to the crimes being discussed in this thread. I'd call it intellectually dishonest if I thought you were trying to be intellectual, but you're not. That would imply an openness to ideas.

There will always be evil people who try and do evil things. Access to guns makes perpetrating their evil far, far easier and far more efficient. There's no way to look at the data and argue otherwise.

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