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Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?

Topic:  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 12:56:03 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

That's correct. But the President and his staff dictating the standard that private employers hold their employees to is very problematic.


They can voice their opinions just as much as the next guy. I'm glad, for once, we don't have someone who is too PC to speak their mind. That's why he won, and will win again. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:04:27 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:

The fact that some get so bothered by a minority who exercises their rights is mind boggling and troubling at the same time!!! And those who believe these people need to find another arena or place to do this, well there have been other places of outlet for the frustrations and I am willing to bet you did not like those either. So bottom line to some people, they just want the minority to shut up!!!!


As an employee of a private entity, you have no right to protest. They can tell you how to behave and, if they disagree with you, can terminate your employment. Very few understand what "free speech" actually means.


This is true, but it is not at all relevant to this situation. The NFL has no policy that employees have to stand for the anthem.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:06:10 PM 
I would venture a guess that looking back on this in 30 or 40 years, the American public will have a much different view of these protests. Let's remember that most Americans did not approve of Martin Luther King, Jr. or the Civil Rights movement in general. Just because "mainstream America" (again, whatever that means?) doesn't like something in the moment doesn't mean it isn't right.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Senior Fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:15:14 PM 
Dear Old Uncle Wes,
First of all it was not ROTC folks on the field. They were soldiers being inducted or reenlisting. They pledged to protect the US constitution--THAT OBVIOUSLY INCLUDES THE FLAG. The procedure was normal. I've done it many times as an Army commander. So get with it before many uninformed comments.
John M. Lusa
Colonel, US Army, retired
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:24:59 PM 
cc-cat wrote:

Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Race has NOTHING to do with this. It drives me crazy when pundits keep saying that. Trump, and most Americans, don't care whether it's a black or white player that kneels. That doesn't even weigh in the thought process unless you're a vile racist. It's about respect for the country, the flag, your team and your fans.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:31:23 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:


Since when is racial injustice crap? The vast majority - no make that overwhelming majority - of fans in the stands at NFL games are white males.

https://brandongaille.com/17-captivating-nfl-fans-demogra... /

But again, those who support the status quo use all kinds of arguments to get us off track.


If this is true, how will these protests impact the NFL's bottom line?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:41:29 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

That's correct. But the President and his staff dictating the standard that private employers hold their employees to is very problematic.


They can voice their opinions just as much as the next guy. I'm glad, for once, we don't have someone who is too PC to speak their mind. That's why he won, and will win again. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


I actually just explained that I do get that. That was what that whole "culture war" thing was about. You see, Trump knows that you care more about fighting "PC culture" than you do about the first amendment. He understands that his base doesn't have deep convictions. They don't care if one week's anger about Google firing an Engineer is completely at odds with the next week's anger over NFL protests. Literally all they care about is the culture war, and all he does is stoke cultural issues. That was the entire premise of his campaign strategy.



Problem is the person who is complaining about taking a knee and yet decry's the PC culture, is in fact contradicting their own values. Because standing for the anthem is a PC thing to do. hmmmmm
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:44:02 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:

The fact that some get so bothered by a minority who exercises their rights is mind boggling and troubling at the same time!!! And those who believe these people need to find another arena or place to do this, well there have been other places of outlet for the frustrations and I am willing to bet you did not like those either. So bottom line to some people, they just want the minority to shut up!!!!


As an employee of a private entity, you have no right to protest. They can tell you how to behave and, if they disagree with you, can terminate your employment. Very few understand what "free speech" actually means.


This is true, but it is not at all relevant to this situation. The NFL has no policy that employees have to stand for the anthem.


NOT only is this not relative to the issue, but as Catfan28 fails to realize that the owners are supporting their employees voicing their opinions. In one case the owner actually participated....So much for the old (can't do this in the private workplace setting crap).
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:44:58 PM 
Senior Fan wrote:
Dear Old Uncle Wes,
First of all it was not ROTC folks on the field. They were soldiers being inducted or reenlisting.
John M. Lusa
Colonel, US Army, retired


I did not know that. I was under the impression that those folks were OU ROTC. Since that is the case, it begs the question of why was this happening during halftime of a college football game? The continued militarization of our sporting events is something that I don't understand. Why are we "inducting" these folks as opposed to inducting first year teachers in Athens County into the service of teaching. I just don't get it.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:45:38 PM 
Senior Fan wrote:
Dear Old Uncle Wes,
First of all it was not ROTC folks on the field. They were soldiers being inducted or reenlisting. They pledged to protect the US constitution--THAT OBVIOUSLY INCLUDES THE FLAG. The procedure was normal. I've done it many times as an Army commander. So get with it before many uninformed comments.
John M. Lusa
Colonel, US Army, retired


Well Colonel, I hate to tell you but NO where in the Constitution of the United States is there ever a mention of a flag!!!! So, no, that pledge does NOT include the flag!
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:45:51 PM 
I'm withholding judgment on the individual kneelers, because #1 I don't know each and every individual's reasons for kneeling, and #2 I find nothing inherently disrespectful about kneeling. (Kneeling as a form of protest seems kinda dumb to me, since kneeling is very frequently a form of reverence, but whatever. You be you.)


My primary thought on this that the NFL, as an organization, sucks. I'd like to enjoy their brand of football, but I can't, because the NFL's #1 objective right now is to "protect the shield," not to produce a quality product. I give the league and owners no credit for its response here, because as soon as the brouhaha has died down, we'll be back to penalizing players for excessive pelvic thrusting in celebrations and fining players who want to wear pink dreadlocks to support breast cancer.

Lighten up, NFL. If players want to skip the national anthem, so what? If players want to wear custom cleats honoring 9/11 victims, so what? If players want to use goal line pylons as a part of touchdown celebrations, so what?

Fun football is better than argumentative football. The NFL isn't fun anymore, and it's only tangentially related to Colin Kaepernick.

(I do miss Kaepernick in the NFL, because that 49ers offense with him at QB and Harbaugh as coach that almost won a Super Bowl was fun. But that's not ShieldBall, so we can't have it.)
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:48:13 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
cc-cat wrote:

Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Race has NOTHING to do with this. It drives me crazy when pundits keep saying that. Trump, and most Americans, don't care whether it's a black or white player that kneels. That doesn't even weigh in the thought process unless you're a vile racist. It's about respect for the country, the flag, your team and your fans.


You really are clueless to what this entire thing started over and why we are even having this discussion. According to you, Ms. Parks not wanting to sit on the back of the bus, did not have anything to do with race either.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:48:26 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:

NOT only is this not relative to the issue, but as Catfan28 fails to realize that the owners are supporting their employees voicing their opinions. In one case the owner actually participated....So much for the old (can't do this in the private workplace setting crap).


Oh, I thought the NFL did disallow voicing opinions in the workplace: http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-denies-cowboys-req...

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:52:58 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:

NOT only is this not relative to the issue, but as Catfan28 fails to realize that the owners are supporting their employees voicing their opinions. In one case the owner actually participated....So much for the old (can't do this in the private workplace setting crap).


Oh, I thought the NFL did disallow voicing opinions in the workplace: http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-denies-cowboys-req...



decal violates the leagues rules for uniform dress. A clearly stated rule that is in writing. There is NO rule that states all players must stand for an anthem. And again, the league and many of the owners have supported their players and their right to not follow an imaginary rule.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:54:28 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
cc-cat wrote:

Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Race has NOTHING to do with this. It drives me crazy when pundits keep saying that. Trump, and most Americans, don't care whether it's a black or white player that kneels. That doesn't even weigh in the thought process unless you're a vile racist. It's about respect for the country, the flag, your team and your fans.


It DOES But here here you go

Unless the "next guy" is an NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.

Bob Costas has a great presentation on the matter - http://www.upworthy.com/bob-costas-offers-a-powerful-look...

This isn't about the flag and respect for our country - it is about respect for each and everyone of us. It's easy to wrap oneself in the flag, stand during the national anthem and cheer at the end of the 1st quarter for the men and women in uniform who did the fly over - that's easy and it has become the lazy "bumper sticker" definition of patriotism. The flag is reduced to a colorful cloth and the anthem a (sometimes) catchy little ditty IF we do not all stand up for and fight for each of us to have the rights, liberties, freedoms and opportunities afforded by our constitution. It is more patriotic to stand up (or kneel) for those rights for all than to salute the flag because it is a symbol of what we, as a country, continue to strive for - but have not yet achieved. I have the utmost respect for the men and women in uniform. I recently spent the day with the Golden Knights doing a publicity program for them. I'm in the midst of working with MWR at Ft. Bragg on a promotional program for them. And NOT ONE of the men and women I work with enlisted because of the flag. They are there because of love of country and the ideals and principles our nation stands for. It is a challenge and responsibility for each of us to uphold those principles and fight for what our service men and women risk their lives for and not simply wave a flag and feel good about our country... or denigrate (and call "son of a bitches") those that feel we need to do more - even if you disagree with their approach.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 1:54:54 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
cc-cat wrote:

Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Race has NOTHING to do with this. It drives me crazy when pundits keep saying that. Trump, and most Americans, don't care whether it's a black or white player that kneels. That doesn't even weigh in the thought process unless you're a vile racist. It's about respect for the country, the flag, your team and your fans.


It drives me crazy that you think race has nothing to do with it. The players are literally protesting racial injustice. It is inherently about race. And context matters. Our President was very slow to call out white nationalists and Nazis and even then he said there were "good people on both sides." He has a history with race, a very bad one. So yes, this is absolutely about race.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:00:13 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
cc-cat wrote:

Unless the "next guy" is a black NFL football player - then the "son of a bitch" either needs to be PC or be fired. If you don't see that, you don't get it.


Race has NOTHING to do with this. It drives me crazy when pundits keep saying that. Trump, and most Americans, don't care whether it's a black or white player that kneels. That doesn't even weigh in the thought process unless you're a vile racist. It's about respect for the country, the flag, your team and your fans.


REALLY? Before Trump opened his big mouth, what color were the sob's who were kneeling? White?
Take your blinders off my man.
Do you think all those confederate flag waving folks who are on your side are upset about the flag?

Last Edited: 9/25/2017 2:07:21 PM by Sam bobcat

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:20:39 PM 
Some may be protesting racial discrimination. Others probably don't even know what they're protesting - just that it's against Trump.

The point is that virtually 100% of those against these protests aren't focused on race. That's what the left tries (and fails) to make this about. Trump and others feel that it is disrespectful. Whether it's a white guy or black guy that kneels, we could care less. If Tom Brady started it, fans would be railing against him too.

And yes, there were plenty of "good people on both sides". What's wrong with saying that?? Most people in Virginia were expressing themselves peacefully. Similarly, there were idiots on both sides that got violent.

Funny how Trump was never seen as a racist before he started running against Democrats...
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:26:23 PM 
No - there was no one "Good" on the side of those chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "Death to niggers" and "soil and blood" - simply no. By definition...no!

If Trump had called the tiki protesters "Son of a bitches" I would have more respect for him - and as I said before, had Obama called the tiki trash "son of a bitches" the right would have exploded.

And if you know anyone who lives in Charlottesville - you would know they did not want the protestors to be there - it was a call to white action, not a protest about a statue (that is why so many were from out of state). It all started days earlier when early arrivers blocked the entrance to a black church and did not let the congregation leave until the police showed up. It of course ended when citizens of Charlottesville tried to barracade the protestors from going into a house project because they were ransacking homes of the residence (mostly black) - the car plowed into those folks. No there were not "good people" on the side of the tiki trash.

Last Edited: 9/25/2017 2:35:43 PM by cc-cat

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:30:14 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
Some may be protesting racial discrimination. Others probably don't even know what they're protesting - just that it's against Trump.

The point is that virtually 100% of those against these protests aren't focused on race. That's what the left tries (and fails) to make this about. Trump and others feel that it is disrespectful. Whether it's a white guy or black guy that kneels, we could care less. If Tom Brady started it, fans would be railing against him too.

And yes, there were plenty of "good people on both sides". What's wrong with saying that?? Most people in Virginia were expressing themselves peacefully. Similarly, there were idiots on both sides that got violent.

Funny how Trump was never seen as a racist before he started running against Democrats...


Yeah grown men are protesting without knowing why...Hell of an assumption.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:32:33 PM 
Sam bobcat wrote:

Yeah grown men are protesting without knowing why...Hell of an assumption.



Guarantee it. You'd have some confused looks like the old Leno shows.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:37:34 PM 
Cause they are just a bunch of dumb jocks - SMH

Last Edited: 9/25/2017 2:41:53 PM by cc-cat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:39:25 PM 
catfan28 wrote:

And yes, there were plenty of "good people on both sides". What's wrong with saying that?? Most people in Virginia were expressing themselves peacefully. Similarly, there were idiots on both sides that got violent.

Funny how Trump was never seen as a racist before he started running against Democrats...


The issue with the "good people on both sides" thing is that one side was full of avowed white supremacists. They carried torches -- which I'm sure everybody here can understand the significance of -- wore Nazi armbands, shouted old Nazi political slogans, and used the Nazi salute.

That was the point of the Charlottesville rally. It was a white supremacist rally. If you were a minority, how would it feel seeing that transpire and then hearing your President say that there were good people amongst those Nazis?

Also: Trump was sued for racially discriminatory housing practices by Democrats several decades ago, and his father's affiliation with the KKK has long been something Trump's had to deal with. The notion that he's just now been accused of racism is false.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:40:56 PM 
cc-cat wrote:

This isn't about the flag and respect for our country ...


That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far.

cc-cat wrote:
I recently spent the day with the Golden Knights doing a publicity program for them. I'm in the midst of working with MWR at Ft. Bragg on a promotional program for them. And NOT ONE of the men and women I work with enlisted because of the flag. They are there because of love of country and the ideals and principles our nation stands for.


And how do those Golden Knights feel about the kneeling? Are they in support?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: How many will kneel at 1:00 today?
   Posted: 9/25/2017 2:50:31 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
cc-cat wrote:

This isn't about the flag and respect for our country ...


That sentence alone explains the entire disconnect between right and left on this issue. On the right, that's absolutely what this is about. You can claim it's not, but that doesn't change anything. That basic fact is what's lost on the kneelers. It is a monumental slap in the face to those who are protective of their own country. If you begin a dialogue by first insulting your opposition, you won't likely get very far.


This is the most sensitive, snow-flakey response I've ever seen.

You're basically asking that NFL games be your safespace. You don't like the way mean Mr. Football Player exercised his free speech rights and are interpreting a peaceful gesture as a "monumental slap in the face" and an insult.

Toughen up. People are going to disagree with you, even about what the flag stands for. You're not obligated to take what they say to heart, but as an American, you should support their right to say it, even if it hurts your feelings.
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