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Topic: RE: Doc's Wish List Defense 2015

Topic: RE: Doc's Wish List Defense 2015

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Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Doc's Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/19/2014 6:05:29 PM

Ohio's scheme has led to 15-16 over the last 31 and our line getting blown out a lot. 2013 vs. bg/kents/beefs...and see 2014 in such as cmu/bg/wmu. etc etc etc etc You cannot have first contact with running back consistently a yard or three into our defense.

That is, some would argue that our 'scheme' whatever it is isn't working.

Go on. Keep clinging to, advocating for what hasn't worked.

Maybe you all are right and next year will be different from what we've seen for years. Maybe no change is called for.

And maybe not.

But I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you and I didn't know flip about scheme but you could tell me that we had fierce destructors doing the deal on our d-line.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Doc's Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/19/2014 6:08:04 PM

To me, football is significantly about keep alumni and friends in touch and returning to Athens.

That's the key reason I'm in favor of keeping football alive.

And, if we're going to keep it 'alive,' then we might as well keep it relevant instead of barely alive.

So, yes, you do appreciate (really; you do) my efforts in not letting anyone get away with this mediocrity we keep seeing.

Get a damn MAC title.

And get it NOW.

L.C.
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RE: Doc's Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/19/2014 7:28:00 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

This is completely wrong. Ohio's scheme led to a lot of success from 2006-2012. Unfortunately, they changed away from that scheme in 2013. In 2013, Ohio tried it your way. They asked the linemen to be disruptive, and to focus on getting sacks. Your way didn't work. The number of sacks doubled, but at a high cost. Since the defensive linemen were focused on getting sacks rather than tying up the offensive linemen, opposing offensive linemen were able to block Ohio's linebackers, and were able to create seams, so Ohio's defense gave up dramatically more rushing yards in 2013 than ever before, and that led to some ugly losses.

The number of rushing yards/game given up ballooned to nearly 200 yards/game in 2013, whereas in prior years it had normally been in the 150 range. It's even worse when you look at the actual games. In 2013 they gave up 252 rushing yards to Buffalo, 207 to BG, and 312 to Kent. Ohio made running back after running back look like NFL material:
CMU - Lavallii 26 carries 174 yards
EMU - Hill 23 carries, 257 yards
Buffalo - Oliver 34 carries for 249 yards
BG - Greene 22 carries for 149 yards
Kent - Archer 15 carries for 138 yards (OK, he was NFL material..)

By comparison, in 2014, after returning to the more traditional scheme, Ohio's defense was dramatically better. They gave up only 133 rushing yards/game average, and against an NIU team that led the MAC in rushing, they gave up only 141 rushing yards. Defense was not the reason Ohio lost games last year (with the exception of Marshall), and defensive tackle play was certainly not the reason.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 4:44:01 AM

I want to thank you--heck, you want to thank you, I'm sure--for making an argument that both misses my point and supports my point.

First, a timeout for an ode to those who support the current status, who think everything is peachy and on track...specifically, for their wonderful response to my suggestions that we try something different. Their response was the extreme conservative orthodox thought that the other side of the ball would respond against our 'something differentl' No kidding. Really..what a surprise.
But, hey missthepoint: If we're half-way decent in our adjustments, then the oppo has a significant chance of not being ready for them. We have a solid chance, for one game at least, of having a decent and significant advantage.
See, anyone with any decent level of analytical skills would go beyond mere surface thinking of 'well, if we do a move, they'll just move to counter it.'

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion: The thought that our effectiveness has varied with scheme entirely misses the point that if we have some monsters at d-line then scheme don't really matter and our guys will rip it up. So, the obvious conclusion is that we've been less than successful at even MAC level (and that ain't much) in recruiting and/or developing d-linemen...because no matter what scheme we run they are not making much of a mark.

At some point, there needs to be recognition that 15-16 over the last 31 vs. really mediocre competition means that THERE'S A PROBLEM HERE.

Last Edited: 12/20/2014 4:46:06 AM by Monroe Slavin

Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 4:57:07 AM

To -respond to the thought that our d-line bringed it against NIU:

First and foremost..and a point most of you will dispute and miss entirely: The ONLY THINGS THAT MATTERED about that game were NIU's last (effectively) possession when it was 14-14 and our last possession after they scored on their drive after it was 14-14. They scored, we turned it over.

How many times do I have to tell you that what matters in game and life is mostly how you do in crunch time. So, when we stink it up on 3rd downs and at late game moments...Well, show that you have your M.O. and draw the obvious conclusions.

So, here's NIU's drive for their last score. Admittedly, it wasn't all runs, but it was their TOTAL DOMINANCE WHEN IT MATTERED, so don't use the NIU game to tell me about how our defensive line has been up to snuff:

Hot knife through butter, they toasted us. Go back and watch it:

Starting at their own 30
Incomplete pass
Pass for 17 yards
Run for 11
Pass for 12
Pass for 7
Run for 5
Run for 12
Run for 3
Pass for 18, TD, GAME OVER.

I did not leave out any plays. That's right, they ran 9 plays to cover 70 yards WHEN IT MATTERED. anti-clutch by us.

If you think that shows that our d-line is sufficient, then we need to talk credibility.

Do ya get it? There are problems here. I'm not letting your side get away with this non-MACC title, 15-16 in the last 31 against mediocre competition, garbage.

Last Edited: 12/20/2014 4:58:11 AM by Monroe Slavin

Bcat2
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 8:28:23 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

I will watch the NIU game over and over and every time my conclusions will be: credit NIU, nothing mediocre about them, great game, credit Ohio, nothing mediocre about Ohio in this game either, great game. Very proud of Ohio after this game, the DL held NIU to about 140 yards, more than 100 less than their average. Sure, when the Ohio DL took away Stingily, and they did, NIU had enough balance and other playmakers to pull it out. Credit to them. Great game. Both teams leave the field proud of their effort. To attempt to discredit Ohio and in particular the DL because of their play vs NIU would be unjust.
Merry Christmas.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 12:34:55 PM

I agree that we played pretty well against NIU.

But you fail to address my concern about a d-line that's likely, sadly, insufficient no matter what the scheme.

And, you fail to address the thought that adjustments our not simply 'we'll do this and they'll then do that which will fully counter so adjustments can't give us an edge'...that adjustments can actually give an edge but we about never over 10 years show adjustments which give us an edge.

Last, despite that the D played reasonably well against NIU, when it came to clutch time we weren't there.

It's as if you think a rousing third quarter, for instance, is excellent and means squat--squat!--when we get hot knife through buttered when it really matters, when the game's on the line.

Reggie Jackson isn't revered for striking out 9,740 times a season. He's in the Hall of Fame because he came up big when it mattered.

That would be the Reggie Jackson, who beside being a very highly recruited running back for college, actually won some championships, unlike...

Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 12:40:55 PM

Y'know what it's worth that we held NIU to 140 rushing yards less than their season average?

Hint: Ya think our players, staff felt like we won because of that?
Hint2: Did you see us in the MAC title game because of that?

Happy holidays to all!

L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/20/2014 1:27:44 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

... The thought that our effectiveness has varied with scheme entirely misses the point that if we have some monsters at d-line then scheme don't really matter and our guys will rip it up. So, the obvious conclusion is that we've been less than successful at even MAC level (and that ain't much) in recruiting and/or developing d-linemen...because no matter what scheme we run they are not making much of a mark....

Of course scheme matters, and, the fact is that Ohio had an outstanding defensive line this year, and Ohio's defensive front was among the best in the MAC. Sure, you can insult them if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that they were very good. Compare how Ohio's defensive line dealt with NIU to how BG's defensive line did, or any other MAC team, for that matter. Only CMU did a better job against them. I would compare this year's defensive line with the 2006 (Yates+Cohen) and the 2010 (Huynh+Hodge) lines.

Ohio has typically had about 20 sacks per year, and held foes to 160 yards rushing. Last year, when they told the defensive line to go for sacks, they got 36 sacks, but gave up 190 yards/game rushing. This year they dropped to 25 sacks, but only gave up 133 yards rushing a game. The 3.9 yards/rush they gave up is significantly better than the 4.6 they gave up last year, or the 4.4 the year before.

I'm with Bcat2. I give credit to NIU for the win, rather than being critical of the Ohio players.

The one thing that makes me sad about our defensive line is that Ohio is still paying the piper for the incredible run of injuries back in 2011. Recall that it was only because of those injuries that Crutcher was called to play in 2011, as a true Freshman. Had he been able to redshirt that year, as was originally planned, he'd be back next year as a 5th year Senior. It's such a shame to lose him now.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/21/2014 4:33:52 PM

I would suggest that the statement that "the fact is that Ohio had an outstanding defensive line this year" represents a less than fair characterization.

I concede that the linebackers had a pretty good year. If the d-line had an outstanding year in addition to the linebackers being pretty solid, how come we couldn't beat a single good team this year.

Are you, then, saying that the rest of the team was horrible?

If so, how can we be confident of next year.

L.C.
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/21/2014 7:31:05 PM

There are two ways to tell how well the defensive tackles are doing. The first is whether the linebackers are able to flow laterally to make tackles. The second is the average carry per rush. Ohio did well in both areas, indicating that the defensive tackles got their job done.

As for why they did not win more games, it is because the team, and especially the offense, was very young at the beginning of the year. According to Phil Steele, it had the 5th least experience of any team in Division I, and to be honest, he probably was figuring Russell starting, so the real team that actually started in game one was actually even less experienced than that.

I don't think that anyone disagrees that the team improved a lot as the year progressed, and that by the last four games they were playing much better that they were at the beginning of the year. My personal belief is that the team that played against NIU would have beaten Kentucky, BG, and perhaps CMU. They nearly beat NIU.

The good news is that, barring injuries in preseason, the team will open up on day one next year with as much experience as this team had after 8 games this year, plus they will have another off-season to build up and improve. Thus, by game one they should be as good or better than this team was in the final week of the year, and of course, I believe they will improve from there.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Casper71
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/22/2014 10:15:33 AM

Great discussion here...bottom line: the defense was pretty good this year at times but inconsistent (youth or ability?). And, my feeling: WE LACK PLAYMAKERS EVERYWHERE. Lack of Int, lack of sacks, lack of fumbles caused and recovered.

So, I will now begin to repeat, "can you get some playmankes". Not just 3-star guys but guys with BigTime offers not just guys with offers from a bunch of MAC and 1AA teams. I guess people will argue with that kind of logic too.

Mark Lembright '85
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/22/2014 10:29:05 AM

Casper71 wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate, if I'm a recruit with big time offers, why would I come to Ohio to play football? Remember, the P5 conferences are strongly considering allowing financial stipends ($2,000-$2,500 per year I recall reading) to players in addition to full scholarships.

Last Edited: 12/22/2014 10:29:26 AM by Mark Lembright '85

The Optimist
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/22/2014 11:07:02 AM

Casper71 wrote:

So, I will now begin to repeat, "can you get some playmankes". Not just 3-star guys but guys with BigTime offers not just guys with offers from a bunch of MAC and 1AA teams. I guess people will argue with that kind of logic too.

You like repeating yourself, but a very small percentage of your ramblings actually make any sense. People aren't arguing with your "logic" because your posts don't offer any sort of logic.

You have stated (repeatedly) that we don't have the resources to compete, then you rip our coaching staff for not recruiting well enough. How are they supposed to compete in recruiting with "big-time" programs if they don't have the resources necessary to compete?
Does our program lack the resources necessary to compete in recruiting or are the resources here and our coaches just aren't getting it done?

Lost in the ramblings of the delusional is the best defensive recruiting class Frank has assembled during his time in Athens. Logical thoughts: the program invested in a new IPF and the coaches are now using this resource to bring in a higher caliber of recruits.

I've seen crazier things happen.

TheBobcatBandit
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/22/2014 11:27:20 AM

People seem to forget how offence and defense go hand in hand. Defenses thrive when they're fresh. Which our defense never was because our offence punted most possessions and failed to put many long drives together. The fact our D did as well as they did this year is a testament to how good they are. 113th in the country in points scored. 47th for points against. I doubt there are many other teams with that big of a gap in performance.

L.C.
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 12/22/2014 7:41:32 PM

Casper71 wrote:

...So, I will now begin to repeat, "can you get some playmankes". Not just 3-star guys but guys with BigTime offers not just guys with offers from a bunch of MAC and 1AA teams. I guess people will argue with that kind of logic too.

What's to disagree with? We always need to have playmakers, whether they come with or without stars.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Doc Bobcat
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 1/20/2015 9:34:43 AM

Real happy with the Cincy Colerain additions......that's a great program.

Doc Bobcat
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 1/27/2015 9:31:30 PM

Picked up Canadian DB Seymour......might be OUr best ever DB recruit group.

L.C.
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RE: Docs Wish List Defense 2015

Posted: 1/27/2015 11:00:39 PM

Doc Bobcat wrote:

Picked up Canadian DB Seymour......might be OUr best ever DB recruit group.

Certainly it would appear to be the best since 2005, when they had 2 future NFL players (Mitchell, Parson), plus S. Jackson, E. Jackson, and Idris Lawrence. Last year's DB class (Nelson, Brunson, Layton, Fox) was solid, too, so DB looks solid for several years.

Last Edited: 1/28/2015 7:33:18 AM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

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