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Topic:  RE: Keep Tim Albin

Topic:  RE: Keep Tim Albin
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 12:54:29 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Boeh then proceeded to keep Knorr at Ohio for three more seasons in which he managed 4, 2, and 4 wins respectively.

Why? Because Boeh wasn't smart enough to negotiate a way out of Knorr's contract and our program doesn't have deep enough pockets for buyouts. Meanwhile, Cromer managed to negotiate a clause that gives her a free way to move on from Albin in half the time and ensured there wouldn't be a repeat of Boeh's mistake with Knorr.
. . .


I submit that the problem with Boeh had very little to do with money. He loved to spend every dime he could lay his hands on, and some that he didn't actually have. The problem with Boeh was ego, plain and simple. He would not admit that he'd made a mistake. The guy was about as vain a man as I've ever met. Some may remember the letter I sent to the Dispatch about Knorr. I had personal conversations with Boeh about that. His reaction could be summed up as, "I'm the AD, I know much more than you do about everything athletic related. You are just a stupid fan, please shut up."

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 8:23:44 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
That's exactly what Tom Boeh did following season one of Knorr Ball. He issued a letter acknowledging that the program's trajectory was not acceptable and that changes would be made.

In order for Ms. Cromer to do the same, she'd have to postpone a few minutes of her NCAA committee work.







Can you tell me what those changes were? Curious? Part of the problem was Boeh himself. He made Knorr take on coaches he had no say in or would not have hired in the first place, and then he seriously defunded the program behind the scenes.


How so? Boeh certainly wasn't afraid to spend money on facilities or coaches relative to peers. What cuts do you actually have knowledge about?


Operating budget, travel budget, meals, summer school., I could go on.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 9:43:48 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Boeh then proceeded to keep Knorr at Ohio for three more seasons in which he managed 4, 2, and 4 wins respectively.

Why? Because Boeh wasn't smart enough to negotiate a way out of Knorr's contract and our program doesn't have deep enough pockets for buyouts. Meanwhile, Cromer managed to negotiate a clause that gives her a free way to move on from Albin in half the time and ensured there wouldn't be a repeat of Boeh's mistake with Knorr.
. . .


I submit that the problem with Boeh had very little to do with money. He loved to spend every dime he could lay his hands on, and some that he didn't actually have. The problem with Boeh was ego, plain and simple. He would not admit that he'd made a mistake. The guy was about as vain a man as I've ever met. Some may remember the letter I sent to the Dispatch about Knorr. I had personal conversations with Boeh about that. His reaction could be summed up as, "I'm the AD, I know much more than you do about everything athletic related. You are just a stupid fan, please shut up."



I wasn't suggesting that "the problem with Boeh was money." Others had held Boeh up as an example Cromer should aspire to; I was pointing out why I feel strongly that Cromer's approach with Albin was vastly superior to Boeh's with Knorr. Words don't mean anything without action. Cromer's negotiated a way to take action, whereas Boeh made an empty gesture to the fanbase without follow through.

There's not really any argument to be made that Cromer's not better positioned with Albin than Boeh was with Knorr, yet the criticisms of Cromer don't seem to reflect that at all.

Last Edited: 12/1/2021 9:46:28 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 10:19:29 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
That's exactly what Tom Boeh did following season one of Knorr Ball. He issued a letter acknowledging that the program's trajectory was not acceptable and that changes would be made.

In order for Ms. Cromer to do the same, she'd have to postpone a few minutes of her NCAA committee work.


Can you tell me what those changes were? Curious? Part of the problem was Boeh himself. He made Knorr take on coaches he had no say in or would not have hired in the first place, and then he seriously defunded the program behind the scenes.


How so? Boeh certainly wasn't afraid to spend money on facilities or coaches relative to peers. What cuts do you actually have knowledge about?


Operating budget, travel budget, meals, summer school., I could go on.


Boeh was ruthless. I could see him doing that to be a jerk. He was pretty gruff with me over the phone. I told him the MAC should step up the salaries and he agreed with me on that.

Facilities every AD has to push. He found a few donors to get the weight room and club seating done. Its nothing on the scale of what Schaus was able to do with the IPF and Academic Center both of which cost 5x to 10x more than Boeh's Peden improvements.

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Felix
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 10:39:38 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Boeh then proceeded to keep Knorr at Ohio for three more seasons in which he managed 4, 2, and 4 wins respectively.

Why? Because Boeh wasn't smart enough to negotiate a way out of Knorr's contract and our program doesn't have deep enough pockets for buyouts. Meanwhile, Cromer managed to negotiate a clause that gives her a free way to move on from Albin in half the time and ensured there wouldn't be a repeat of Boeh's mistake with Knorr.
. . .


I submit that the problem with Boeh had very little to do with money. He loved to spend every dime he could lay his hands on, and some that he didn't actually have. The problem with Boeh was ego, plain and simple. He would not admit that he'd made a mistake. The guy was about as vain a man as I've ever met. Some may remember the letter I sent to the Dispatch about Knorr. I had personal conversations with Boeh about that. His reaction could be summed up as, "I'm the AD, I know much more than you do about everything athletic related. You are just a stupid fan, please shut up."



I wasn't suggesting that "the problem with Boeh was money." Others had held Boeh up as an example Cromer should aspire to; I was pointing out why I feel strongly that Cromer's approach with Albin was vastly superior to Boeh's with Knorr. Words don't mean anything without action. Cromer's negotiated a way to take action, whereas Boeh made an empty gesture to the fanbase without follow through.

There's not really any argument to be made that Cromer's not better positioned with Albin than Boeh was with Knorr, yet the criticisms of Cromer don't seem to reflect that at all.


Of course, Cromer is better positioned with Albin than Boeh was with Knorr. A few of us mentioned that there was some communication with Boeh about the status of the program. It might have helped with ticket sales at the time, but who knows? I don't think anybody has said that Boeh was a better AD.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 11:07:02 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
That's exactly what Tom Boeh did following season one of Knorr Ball. He issued a letter acknowledging that the program's trajectory was not acceptable and that changes would be made.

In order for Ms. Cromer to do the same, she'd have to postpone a few minutes of her NCAA committee work.


Can you tell me what those changes were? Curious? Part of the problem was Boeh himself. He made Knorr take on coaches he had no say in or would not have hired in the first place, and then he seriously defunded the program behind the scenes.


How so? Boeh certainly wasn't afraid to spend money on facilities or coaches relative to peers. What cuts do you actually have knowledge about?


Operating budget, travel budget, meals, summer school., I could go on.


Boeh was ruthless. I could see him doing that to be a jerk. He was pretty gruff with me over the phone. I told him the MAC should step up the salaries and he agreed with me on that.

Facilities every AD has to push. He found a few donors to get the weight room and club seating done. Its nothing on the scale of what Schaus was able to do with the IPF and Academic Center both of which cost 5x to 10x more than Boeh's Peden improvements.


Let's not forget that Boeh's Peden improvements were a failure in that he had to throw good money after bad money. Grobe wanted Field Turf, Boeh laughed at that, because "Wrigley Field does not have turf", invested in a grass system, that we could not take care of and basically killed, and had to replace the new field after 1 year with Field Turf, which only cost an extra $1.2 Million.
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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 11:35:18 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
That's exactly what Tom Boeh did following season one of Knorr Ball. He issued a letter acknowledging that the program's trajectory was not acceptable and that changes would be made.

In order for Ms. Cromer to do the same, she'd have to postpone a few minutes of her NCAA committee work.


Can you tell me what those changes were? Curious? Part of the problem was Boeh himself. He made Knorr take on coaches he had no say in or would not have hired in the first place, and then he seriously defunded the program behind the scenes.


How so? Boeh certainly wasn't afraid to spend money on facilities or coaches relative to peers. What cuts do you actually have knowledge about?


Operating budget, travel budget, meals, summer school., I could go on.


Boeh was ruthless. I could see him doing that to be a jerk. He was pretty gruff with me over the phone. I told him the MAC should step up the salaries and he agreed with me on that.

Facilities every AD has to push. He found a few donors to get the weight room and club seating done. Its nothing on the scale of what Schaus was able to do with the IPF and Academic Center both of which cost 5x to 10x more than Boeh's Peden improvements.


Let's not forget that Boeh's Peden improvements were a failure in that he had to throw good money after bad money. Grobe wanted Field Turf, Boeh laughed at that, because "Wrigley Field does not have turf", invested in a grass system, that we could not take care of and basically killed, and had to replace the new field after 1 year with Field Turf, which only cost an extra $1.2 Million.


Wrigley Field as Boeh came over from Northwestern. That 1.2 mil probably would of had to be spent regardless to put the turf in. In perspective the entire Phillips Club renovation only cost 2.2 mil if I remember correctly. Boeh said there wasn't funds to add more to the stadium at the time.

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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 1:31:03 PM 
Felix wrote:


Of course, Cromer is better positioned with Albin than Boeh was with Knorr. A few of us mentioned that there was some communication with Boeh about the status of the program. It might have helped with ticket sales at the time, but who knows? I don't think anybody has said that Boeh was a better AD.


You say "of course" as if I'm supposed to be able to discern that from what's been posted about Cromer in the last few days? Here are some direct quotes:

Quote:

I don't think the A.D. really cares what the fans think.


Felix wrote:

Personally,I think she's more interested in the outside committees she's on,then O.U. Athletics.


Quote:

Thanks to Cromer the decline is certain.


Quote:

The words "snookered" and "schooled" come to mind when describing what happened to the A.D.with Albin.


Quote:

The AD has poor instincts


Quote:

This whole thing is an embarrassing joke. No matter how I try and give her the benefit of the doubt, she got hoodwinked.


All of those things are being said about an AD who had to deal with a surprise retirement from a long-tenured coach -- a guy who likely will have the field named after him -- less than two months before opening day, and managed to negotiate a free out after two years with the heir apparent to said long-time coach despite not having the leverage of being able to look outside of the program for replacements. Since then, our defensive coordinators have "retired" -- a very clear sign that Albin's feeling heat.

Yet the speculation here is that Cromer doesn't care, was out negotiated, and isn't the right person for the job.

So apologies if I had trouble parsing out that the reasonable minds of BobcatAttack.com don't think Cromer's a worse AD than Tom Boeh when they suggest she write them a meaningless letter like Boeh. Cromer doesn't have to write a letter because that message was negotiated into Albin's contract and is plain to see for anybody paying attention.

But for some reason, a whole lot of people prefer to criticize Cromer for sitting on NCAA committees, and not using imagined leverage to get Albin to accept a one year, interim deal. That the conversation has come back around to Cromer's not communicating with the fanbase is telling. Because that's the actual onus of the push to blame Cromer, and everything else is ignoring a rational read in favor of projecting existing feelings about Cromer onto her handling of the Albin situation.

I, for one, am truly shocked that people who are inclined to call and email their thoughts to the athletic director of their alma mater are also the sort of people who think an Athletic Director's number one priority is to cater to fans' feelings. Who woulda thought that Venn Diagram would be a perfect eclipse? Hugely surprising.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 1:44:50 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
SBH wrote:
That's exactly what Tom Boeh did following season one of Knorr Ball. He issued a letter acknowledging that the program's trajectory was not acceptable and that changes would be made.

In order for Ms. Cromer to do the same, she'd have to postpone a few minutes of her NCAA committee work.


Can you tell me what those changes were? Curious? Part of the problem was Boeh himself. He made Knorr take on coaches he had no say in or would not have hired in the first place, and then he seriously defunded the program behind the scenes.


How so? Boeh certainly wasn't afraid to spend money on facilities or coaches relative to peers. What cuts do you actually have knowledge about?


Operating budget, travel budget, meals, summer school., I could go on.


Boeh was ruthless. I could see him doing that to be a jerk. He was pretty gruff with me over the phone. I told him the MAC should step up the salaries and he agreed with me on that.

Facilities every AD has to push. He found a few donors to get the weight room and club seating done. Its nothing on the scale of what Schaus was able to do with the IPF and Academic Center both of which cost 5x to 10x more than Boeh's Peden improvements.


Let's not forget that Boeh's Peden improvements were a failure in that he had to throw good money after bad money. Grobe wanted Field Turf, Boeh laughed at that, because "Wrigley Field does not have turf", invested in a grass system, that we could not take care of and basically killed, and had to replace the new field after 1 year with Field Turf, which only cost an extra $1.2 Million.


Wrigley Field as Boeh came over from Northwestern. That 1.2 mil probably would of had to be spent regardless to put the turf in. In perspective the entire Phillips Club renovation only cost 2.2 mil if I remember correctly. Boeh said there wasn't funds to add more to the stadium at the time.


$2.2million (for the initial renovation), of which about $500k was the state of the art grass field. Then another $750K the next year to tear it up and install the turf. That's $1.2 Million. And the installers of the original grass field "low bid" contract used construction sand as the drain base of the grass field. A sand that basically did not allow the moisture to drain properly and rotted the roots of the field.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 4:36:33 PM 
https://arkansasstate.rivals.com/news/boeh-named-arkansas...

Looks like these guys are happy to have him.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 7:11:51 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
And the installers of the original grass field "low bid" contract used construction sand as the drain base of the grass field. A sand that basically did not allow the moisture to drain properly and rotted the roots of the field.
""

As someone who handles the design, and construction management, for a number of public projects, including natural and synthetic turf fields,I don't understand how this could happen.

The blame has to be with O.U.,or their consultants.

The specs I write for natural turf fields require it be installed on what is known as "Root Zone", basically sand with about 10% organic material.

The specs requires a manifest and certification for every load of material brought on site.

That gets given to,and checked by the project inspector or manager.

We also take and test random samples .

After the material is in place,and before we lay any turf,we confirm the "Root Zone's " "density, to be sure it isn't to compact and won't drain properly.

Never had a natural turf field fail,except from "over use".

Natural turf can be used, at most, every couple of days.
It doesn't get a chance to "rest and recover",it fails.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 8:29:38 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
And the installers of the original grass field "low bid" contract used construction sand as the drain base of the grass field. A sand that basically did not allow the moisture to drain properly and rotted the roots of the field.
""

As someone who handles the design, and construction management, for a number of public projects, including natural and synthetic turf fields,I don't understand how this could happen.

The blame has to be with O.U.,or their consultants.

The specs I write for natural turf fields require it be installed on what is known as "Root Zone", basically sand with about 10% organic material.

The specs requires a manifest and certification for every load of material brought on site.

That gets given to,and checked by the project inspector or manager.

We also take and test random samples .

After the material is in place,and before we lay any turf,we confirm the "Root Zone's " "density, to be sure it isn't to compact and won't drain properly.

Never had a natural turf field fail,except from "over use".

Natural turf can be used, at most, every couple of days.
It doesn't get a chance to "rest and recover",it fails.






Well since I was actually there, why don’t you tell me what happened then? And how many projects has the University “kicked” back then? More than one.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/1/2021 10:20:43 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Boeh then proceeded to keep Knorr at Ohio for three more seasons in which he managed 4, 2, and 4 wins respectively.

Why? Because Boeh wasn't smart enough to negotiate a way out of Knorr's contract and our program doesn't have deep enough pockets for buyouts. Meanwhile, Cromer managed to negotiate a clause that gives her a free way to move on from Albin in half the time and ensured there wouldn't be a repeat of Boeh's mistake with Knorr.
. . .


I submit that the problem with Boeh had very little to do with money. He loved to spend every dime he could lay his hands on, and some that he didn't actually have. The problem with Boeh was ego, plain and simple. He would not admit that he'd made a mistake. The guy was about as vain a man as I've ever met. Some may remember the letter I sent to the Dispatch about Knorr. I had personal conversations with Boeh about that. His reaction could be summed up as, "I'm the AD, I know much more than you do about everything athletic related. You are just a stupid fan, please shut up."



I wasn't suggesting that "the problem with Boeh was money." Others had held Boeh up as an example Cromer should aspire to; I was pointing out why I feel strongly that Cromer's approach with Albin was vastly superior to Boeh's with Knorr. Words don't mean anything without action. Cromer's negotiated a way to take action, whereas Boeh made an empty gesture to the fanbase without follow through.

There's not really any argument to be made that Cromer's not better positioned with Albin than Boeh was with Knorr, yet the criticisms of Cromer don't seem to reflect that at all.


Thanks for the clarification. I understand your point, and at least partially agree with it. Cromer has done a better job than Boeh, but not as good as she could have done. I think that last part is where we continue to disagree. I think something like rpbobcat's suggestion might have worked. At his juncture we'll never know for sure, since none of us were part of the negotiations, though BTC might have an ear to the wall.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 7:07:27 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


Well since I was actually there, why don’t you tell me what happened then? And how many projects has the University “kicked” back then? More than one.


You misread my post.

I'm not saying what you said didn't happen.

I'm saying it shouldn't have.

If the turf failed because of the base material it was installed on, its usually because either there were flaws in the design or specs, or the project wasn't inspected to make sure it followed the specs.

It also seems odd that the project didn't have a Maintenance Bond.

For our public projects, we require a Performance and Payment Bond.
The Performance Bond covers 100% of the construction cost.
The Payment Bond assures any/all subcontractors get paid.

After a project is accepted as 100% complete, a 1-2 year Maintenance Bond is posted.

I would also think that, after the natural turf failed, O.U. would have done
a forensic investigation.
I've done several, when pavements have failed prematurely.

If that investigation found that either the design was flawed, improper materials were used, or the construction wasn't done per spec, someone should be liable.




Last Edited: 12/2/2021 7:22:33 AM by rpbobcat
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 8:18:28 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I understand your point, and at least partially agree with it. Cromer has done a better job than Boeh, but not as good as she could have done. I think that last part is where we continue to disagree. I think something like rpbobcat's suggestion might have worked. At his juncture we'll never know for sure, since none of us were part of the negotiations, though BTC might have an ear to the wall.


Here's rpboncat's suggestion:

Cromer: So, I've got this idea. What if instead of announcing your retirement, you pretend you're not retiring. That way, I can get away with naming Tim Albin interim coach and if things don't go well this coming season, I can fire him.

Solich: We're talking about the same Tim Albin that I've been friends and colleagues with for 20 years, right? The one I hired and who has been a key part of my staff for 15 years. That guy, right?

Cromer: Yep!

Solich: I see. So you're asking me to be publicly dishonest about my status, and in exchange, you get to ensure that my long time friend and trusted colleague doesn't end up with any job stability?

Cromer: Exactly! And here's another really good part: do you know Tim's family? I bet you do! By doing this, their lives also become really uncertain! Maybe they'll have to move soon. Maybe not! Who knows. Isn't that a cool perk?

Solich: Wait, remind me, why do I want to do this?

Cromer: Well, you see, there are a bunch of old grads on Bobcatattack.com who are trying very, very hard to find a way to justify their emotional, poorly thought out desire to retroactively blame me for the disappointing football season, and after they failed to rationally state a case as to how I could have done any better than I did, they've come up with this nonsense.

Solich: Oh, but wouldn't it just take the littlest bit of critical thought to understand that this doesn't make sense?

Cromer: Frank, you're not listening. They really, really want to blame me. Critical thought and rationality have nothing to do with it. I don't wrote letters to the fanbase!

Frank: Wait, letters? What's that have to do with shy of this?

Cromer: Exactly.

Frank: But surely they understand that I want Albin to be successful, right?

Cromer: You'd think so. There are a dozen obvious reasons why that would be the case. But no. Not anymore. A couple of months ago they did -- one of them when used to say "Frank got us into this mess, he can get us out of it" and suggest you buy out Albin's contract.

Frank:. . .

Cromer: Yeah, I know. And now he's suggesting that you would've gone along with this lie I came up with to avoid giving Albin the opportunity to get a real shot at this job.

Frank: Huh. And they're doing all of this with the benefit of hindsight, and didn't say anything about this at the time?

Cromer: Exactly. In fact, one of them predicted we'd win the MAC Championship. And that we'd have the best defense. Of the century.

Frank: None of this makes any sense at all.

Cromer: Sorry, what were you saying, I don't pay attention to Ohio Athletics and am on an NCAA committee conference call.

Last Edited: 12/2/2021 8:35:37 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 9:54:24 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


Well since I was actually there, why don’t you tell me what happened then? And how many projects has the University “kicked” back then? More than one.


You misread my post.

I'm not saying what you said didn't happen.

I'm saying it shouldn't have.

If the turf failed because of the base material it was installed on, its usually because either there were flaws in the design or specs, or the project wasn't inspected to make sure it followed the specs.

It also seems odd that the project didn't have a Maintenance Bond.

For our public projects, we require a Performance and Payment Bond.
The Performance Bond covers 100% of the construction cost.
The Payment Bond assures any/all subcontractors get paid.

After a project is accepted as 100% complete, a 1-2 year Maintenance Bond is posted.

I would also think that, after the natural turf failed, O.U. would have done
a forensic investigation.
I've done several, when pavements have failed prematurely.

If that investigation found that either the design was flawed, improper materials were used, or the construction wasn't done per spec, someone should be liable.






Oh, I agree with that, but again, knowing who on OUr end who was in charge. Well that said a lot!
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 10:54:00 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I understand your point, and at least partially agree with it. Cromer has done a better job than Boeh, but not as good as she could have done. I think that last part is where we continue to disagree. I think something like rpbobcat's suggestion might have worked. At his juncture we'll never know for sure, since none of us were part of the negotiations, though BTC might have an ear to the wall.


Here's rpboncat's suggestion:

Cromer: So, I've got this idea. What if instead of announcing your retirement, you pretend you're not retiring. That way, I can get away with naming Tim Albin interim coach and if things don't go well this coming season, I can fire him.

Solich: We're talking about the same Tim Albin that I've been friends and colleagues with for 20 years, right? The one I hired and who has been a key part of my staff for 15 years. That guy, right?

Cromer: Yep!


Solich: I see. So you're asking me to be publicly dishonest about my status, and in exchange, you get to ensure that my long time friend and trusted colleague doesn't end up with any job stability?

Cromer: Exactly! And here's another really good part: do you know Tim's family? I bet you do! By doing this, their lives also become really uncertain! Maybe they'll have to move soon. Maybe not! Who knows. Isn't that a cool perk?

Solich: Wait, remind me, why do I want to do this?

Cromer: Well, you see, there are a bunch of old grads on Bobcatattack.com who are trying very, very hard to find a way to justify their emotional, poorly thought out desire to retroactively blame me for the disappointing football season, and after they failed to rationally state a case as to how I could have done any better than I did, they've come up with this nonsense.

Solich: Oh, but wouldn't it just take the littlest bit of critical thought to understand that this doesn't make sense?

Cromer: Frank, you're not listening. They really, really want to blame me. Critical thought and rationality have nothing to do with it. I don't wrote letters to the fanbase!

Frank: Wait, letters? What's that have to do with shy of this?

Cromer: Exactly.

Frank: But surely they understand that I want Albin to be successful, right?

Cromer: You'd think so. There are a dozen obvious reasons why that would be the case. But no. Not anymore. A couple of months ago they did -- one of them when used to say "Frank got us into this mess, he can get us out of it" and suggest you buy out Albin's contract.

Frank:. . .

Cromer: Yeah, I know. And now he's suggesting that you would've gone along with this lie I came up with to avoid giving Albin the opportunity to get a real shot at this job.

Frank: Huh. And they're doing all of this with the benefit of hindsight, and didn't say anything about this at the time?

Cromer: Exactly. In fact, one of them predicted we'd win the MAC Championship. And that we'd have the best defense. Of the century.

Frank: None of this makes any sense at all.

Cromer: Sorry, what were you saying, I don't pay attention to Ohio Athletics and am on an NCAA committee conference call.



The selective use of present AND past tense makes this totally pointless.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 11:20:00 AM 
SBH wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I understand your point, and at least partially agree with it. Cromer has done a better job than Boeh, but not as good as she could have done. I think that last part is where we continue to disagree. I think something like rpbobcat's suggestion might have worked. At his juncture we'll never know for sure, since none of us were part of the negotiations, though BTC might have an ear to the wall.


Here's rpboncat's suggestion:

Cromer: So, I've got this idea. What if instead of announcing your retirement, you pretend you're not retiring. That way, I can get away with naming Tim Albin interim coach and if things don't go well this coming season, I can fire him.

Solich: We're talking about the same Tim Albin that I've been friends and colleagues with for 20 years, right? The one I hired and who has been a key part of my staff for 15 years. That guy, right?

Cromer: Yep!


Solich: I see. So you're asking me to be publicly dishonest about my status, and in exchange, you get to ensure that my long time friend and trusted colleague doesn't end up with any job stability?

Cromer: Exactly! And here's another really good part: do you know Tim's family? I bet you do! By doing this, their lives also become really uncertain! Maybe they'll have to move soon. Maybe not! Who knows. Isn't that a cool perk?

Solich: Wait, remind me, why do I want to do this?

Cromer: Well, you see, there are a bunch of old grads on Bobcatattack.com who are trying very, very hard to find a way to justify their emotional, poorly thought out desire to retroactively blame me for the disappointing football season, and after they failed to rationally state a case as to how I could have done any better than I did, they've come up with this nonsense.

Solich: Oh, but wouldn't it just take the littlest bit of critical thought to understand that this doesn't make sense?

Cromer: Frank, you're not listening. They really, really want to blame me. Critical thought and rationality have nothing to do with it. I don't wrote letters to the fanbase!

Frank: Wait, letters? What's that have to do with shy of this?

Cromer: Exactly.

Frank: But surely they understand that I want Albin to be successful, right?

Cromer: You'd think so. There are a dozen obvious reasons why that would be the case. But no. Not anymore. A couple of months ago they did -- one of them when used to say "Frank got us into this mess, he can get us out of it" and suggest you buy out Albin's contract.

Frank:. . .

Cromer: Yeah, I know. And now he's suggesting that you would've gone along with this lie I came up with to avoid giving Albin the opportunity to get a real shot at this job.

Frank: Huh. And they're doing all of this with the benefit of hindsight, and didn't say anything about this at the time?

Cromer: Exactly. In fact, one of them predicted we'd win the MAC Championship. And that we'd have the best defense. Of the century.

Frank: None of this makes any sense at all.

Cromer: Sorry, what were you saying, I don't pay attention to Ohio Athletics and am on an NCAA committee conference call.



The selective use of present AND past tense makes this totally pointless.


Het, but it was entertaining, and I enjoy attempts at satire, even when they are a bit lame.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 3,283

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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 11:43:41 AM 
SBH wrote:


The selective use of present AND past tense makes this totally pointless.


The selective use of logical reasoning makes a whole lot of posts on this subject totally pointless, too.

And that a few folks here, with the benefit of hindsight, have decided that Cromer should have negotiated differently -- after themselves predicting that OU would win the Mac Championship this year -- says a lot about how much people here actually care about how the present and past relate to each other.

Last Edited: 12/2/2021 11:48:06 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 12:22:13 PM 
Wise people adjust their perceptions based on new data. After the loss to the mighty Iron Dukes I became a skeptic of Albin's coaching ability. My skepticism grew as the season progressed. I'm not an athletics administrative professional. Our AD supposedly is. She obviously bought a pig in poke. That has consequences. My idle speculation on a sports fan board had and has no consequences, other than my wounded ego, but I'm used to the slings and arrows of BA, and I recover quickly from those wounds. The OHIO football program might not be so lucky!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,283

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 4:19:39 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Wise people adjust their perceptions based on new data.


This is the exact thing you, rpbobcat, and a few others are failing to do is open right now.

OhioCatFan wrote:

After the loss to the mighty Iron Dukes I became a skeptic of Albin's coaching ability. My skepticism grew as the season progressed.


No question this is true; it's also not the point. The discussion here is about whether or not Cromer was "snookered" and "schooled" in her negotiation around Albin's contract, and whether she could have done better than she did. You're insistent that she could have, but nobody has been able to present any rational explanation as to how.

Hence my little one act play.

OhioCatFan wrote:

I'm not an athletics administrative professional. Our AD supposedly is. She obviously bought a pig in poke. That has consequences.


This is the exact point you're missing: she didn't buy anything. She was put in a situation in which she had no leverage and came out of it with the shortest possible contract and a free option for Ohio Football to get off of Albin's contract if he fails to perform.

You say wise people adjust their perceptions based on new data. But what you all have actually done here is dug your heels in and insist against all reason that Cromer's to blame here and should be held accountable.

I think it's pretty plain to see that she handled this scenario remarkably well. That everybody would prefer Albin be sent packing today doesn't mean that was ever a realistic possibility. And to be frank, in my opinion if people are going to publicly criticize others -- especially those in a small community like Athens, OH -- reason better be on their side.

In this case, I think the pitchforks are wrongly pointed at Cromer.

OhioCatFan wrote:

My idle speculation on a sports fan board had and has no consequences, other than my wounded ego, but I'm used to the slings and arrows of BA, and I recover quickly from those wounds. The OHIO football program might not be so lucky!


Again, this misses the point. Stating, "well, Cromer's an expert, I'm not" misses that nobody here can formulate a reasonable explanation as to how Cromer could have achieved a better outcome.

Heads will roll for the state of Ohio Football. It'll be the heads of Albin and others on the staff though, because ultimately they're the ones responsible. Cromer's culpability will begin when she has the opportunity to actually run a coaching search and install her choice; she didn't have that choice with Albin, and the contract she negotiated with him makes very clear that she had little confidence in him.

The attempts to argue anything but aren't based on fact, but instead just read as angry people looking for somebody to blame.

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 5:07:10 PM 
For the record, I never used the words "snookered" or "schooled." Those are words others used. I will only say that I think she could have negotiated better given that Albin's ability as a head coach at the D1 level was, indeed, an unknown, hence my use of the "pig in a poke" old saw. If Albin wouldn't accept an interim position, she could have gone done the the line of assistant coaches until she found one who would. Maybe TT would have taken it. Probably couldn't have done a worse job.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,283

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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/2/2021 6:11:45 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
For the record, I never used the words "snookered" or "schooled." Those are words others used. I will only say that I think she could have negotiated better given that Albin's ability as a head coach at the D1 level was, indeed, an unknown, hence my use of the "pig in a poke" old saw. If Albin wouldn't accept an interim position, she could have gone done the the line of assistant coaches until she found one who would. Maybe TT would have taken it. Probably couldn't have done a worse job.


In that alternate timeline you just outlined, you're here, just as angry with Cromer, because she refused to offer the job to Tim Albin who you predicted would win the championship Solich never did.

Anyhow, I give up, man. You're working so hard to find a way to blame Cromer for this, that I'm just gonna go ahead and stop trying to convince you otherwise. I only hope the OU administration recognizes how irrational the portion of the fanbase that feels that way truly is.



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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/3/2021 6:58:47 AM 
According to an article in the 12/2/21 The Post (OU's budget expected to end in surplus for 2021) O.U. will end 2021 with a surplus of $42.6 million.

Using $500 k of that to buy out Albin would leave $42.1 million.

So, they do have the money to buy him out.
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mf279801
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Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Newark, DE
Post Count: 2,452

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  Message Not Read  RE: Keep Tim Albin
   Posted: 12/3/2021 7:13:29 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
According to an article in the 12/2/21 The Post (OU's budget expected to end in surplus for 2021) O.U. will end 2021 with a surplus of $42.6 million.

Using $500 k of that to buy out Albin would leave $42.1 million.

So, they do have the money to buy him out.


And how much deferred maintenance has OU built up over the years? Is paying 2 head football coaches in 2022 the best use of that money?
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