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Topic:  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021

Topic:  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 11:28:16 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Paying college athletes seems to be a major topic every couple of years.

The last time I remember was when a football team was talking about forming some type of union.

As was pointed out by several sports attorneys at that time,trying to pay student athletes opens up a Pandora's Box.

A few things I remember from the last time:

1.Most conversations center on paying men's football and basketball players.
Under Title IX, you'd have to pay all D1 athletes,in all sports.

2.If a University is paying players,they become employees.
Now you have to deal with unions,benefits,same as any other employee.

3.If athletes do get paid,it is quite possible that tuition,room board etc. could be considered "taxable income".

Endorsement contracts,rights to using a player's images etc.,that fall outside
of the school may be workable.
I just don't see schools wading into the morass of paying athletes.


Exactly!!!
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BillyTheCat
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Post Count: 9,420

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 11:30:54 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person here advocating for players to be better compensated, and the only thing I've suggested in relaxing restrictions on endorsements/outside compensation.


That may be true here. But, it's worth noting that there are a lot of voices in the public sphere that do advocate paying players. Given the choice between the two, I'm certainly much more in the endorsement camp.

That said, my primary concern will always be to create more competitive balance - not less of it.


So, we allow endorsements, then how many scholarships will OSU, Michigan, Alabama get? 85 scholarships, 25 sponsorships from car dealerships at $50k a year? Limited Brands sponsorship of 20players at 30k, Steve’s Lawn Care with 15 endorsements at 30k, while OHIO will have Larry’s Dog House’s “Weenie Wednesday Warrior” at $50 a month. We’ve been down this road folks! There is a reason these things were banned! Because the big boys and select others doled out $1,000’s upon $1,000’s to get and keep players! And guess what, bad then there was no parity, and there is a reason for that.

This would be anti-competitive balance, which I believe Catfan knows, I probably quoted the wrong post, but I think my point is clear.


All of those things are undoubtedly true.

I still very firmly believe it's the right thing to do and that competitive balance is far less important than giving people the right to earn money off of their talents. I think allowing endorsements may well lead to college athletics being less entertaining. My entertainment isn't (nor should it be) one of the top considerations here.



So you are saying that tution, room and board, travel, incidentals is not compensation? They are earning money and compensation! Remember, not all compensation is green and in honor of dead men.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Post Count: 3,229

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 11:34:25 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person here advocating for players to be better compensated, and the only thing I've suggested in relaxing restrictions on endorsements/outside compensation.


That may be true here. But, it's worth noting that there are a lot of voices in the public sphere that do advocate paying players. Given the choice between the two, I'm certainly much more in the endorsement camp.

That said, my primary concern will always be to create more competitive balance - not less of it.


So, we allow endorsements, then how many scholarships will OSU, Michigan, Alabama get? 85 scholarships, 25 sponsorships from car dealerships at $50k a year? Limited Brands sponsorship of 20players at 30k, Steve’s Lawn Care with 15 endorsements at 30k, while OHIO will have Larry’s Dog House’s “Weenie Wednesday Warrior” at $50 a month. We’ve been down this road folks! There is a reason these things were banned! Because the big boys and select others doled out $1,000’s upon $1,000’s to get and keep players! And guess what, bad then there was no parity, and there is a reason for that.

This would be anti-competitive balance, which I believe Catfan knows, I probably quoted the wrong post, but I think my point is clear.


All of those things are undoubtedly true.

I still very firmly believe it's the right thing to do and that competitive balance is far less important than giving people the right to earn money off of their talents. I think allowing endorsements may well lead to college athletics being less entertaining. My entertainment isn't (nor should it be) one of the top considerations here.



So you are saying that tution, room and board, travel, incidentals is not compensation? They are earning money and compensation! Remember, not all compensation is green and in honor of dead men.


No, I am not saying that.

In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. I'm acknowledging the manner in which universities are capable of compensating athletes and suggesting that continue exactly as is. That includes tuition, room and board, travel, and incidentals.

I'm simply suggesting that there's no reason to make that compensation contingent upon an athlete not accepting any other form of compensation outside of the university. There's a very timely fast food ad sitting on the table for Trevor Lawrence; I don't think it's some grave sin or pox on the institution of amateur athletics if he does a Chik Fil A commercial tomorrow.

Last Edited: 1/16/2019 11:36:41 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 12:11:52 PM 
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.

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colobobcat66
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Member Since: 9/1/2006
Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 12:33:52 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Good point. I was talking about so called “revenue” sports, but you’re certainly right about the others.
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,420

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 12:38:32 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.

Last Edited: 1/16/2019 12:57:49 PM by BillyTheCat

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cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,819

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 1:27:22 PM 
Don't even talk "but hey they get tuition, board, etc." until all scholarships are for 4 years. As long as they are year to year, the university has complete leverage.

Last Edited: 1/16/2019 1:27:39 PM by cc-cat

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,495

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/16/2019 7:20:50 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.


My point is,the majority of D1 athletes don't get 4 years of full tuition,room and board.
In my case at least,playing 2 D1 sports with no scholarship money,a full ride would have been sweet and all I would ask for.

Last Edited: 1/16/2019 7:21:47 PM by rpbobcat

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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,420

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/17/2019 10:15:46 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.


My point is,the majority of D1 athletes don't get 4 years of full tuition,room and board.
In my case at least,playing 2 D1 sports with no scholarship money,a full ride would have been sweet and all I would ask for.


And my point is the Athletes that are getting these "endorsements" are going to be the ones on full scholarship. These same athletes are already getting free meals at any restaurant in town and many other perks. So, athletes are not really going to benefit here, only the select few.
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ChiCat2018
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Member Since: 8/27/2018
Post Count: 64

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/17/2019 11:21:47 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.


My point is,the majority of D1 athletes don't get 4 years of full tuition,room and board.
In my case at least,playing 2 D1 sports with no scholarship money,a full ride would have been sweet and all I would ask for.


And my point is the Athletes that are getting these "endorsements" are going to be the ones on full scholarship. These same athletes are already getting free meals at any restaurant in town and many other perks. So, athletes are not really going to benefit here, only the select few.


If they are then they're in violation of NCAA regulations. Get rid of these regulations and let the kids get money or other perks for being athletes.

'Receive any benefit that is not available to other students at the University' - From UNC handbook
'Student-athletes may not accept gifts or services at reduced prices (e.g., a parent may not buy ipods for each
member of a team as a holiday gift).' - From University of Richmond

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/news/story?id=2061565
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/unc/genrel/auto_pdf/h...
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/rich/genrel/auto_pdf/...
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,495

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/17/2019 11:40:02 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:

And my point is the Athletes that are getting these "endorsements" are going to be the ones on full scholarship. These same athletes are already getting free meals at any restaurant in town and many other perks. So, athletes are not really going to benefit here, only the select few.


Guess I wasn't clear.

I agree that full tuition,room and board should be enough compensation for any college student athlete.

I never said was in favor of endorsements or other perks.

What I said there may be a workable solution to this.



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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,420

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/18/2019 11:07:46 AM 
ChiCat2018 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.


My point is,the majority of D1 athletes don't get 4 years of full tuition,room and board.
In my case at least,playing 2 D1 sports with no scholarship money,a full ride would have been sweet and all I would ask for.


And my point is the Athletes that are getting these "endorsements" are going to be the ones on full scholarship. These same athletes are already getting free meals at any restaurant in town and many other perks. So, athletes are not really going to benefit here, only the select few.


If they are then they're in violation of NCAA regulations. Get rid of these regulations and let the kids get money or other perks for being athletes.

'Receive any benefit that is not available to other students at the University' - From UNC handbook
'Student-athletes may not accept gifts or services at reduced prices (e.g., a parent may not buy ipods for each
member of a team as a holiday gift).' - From University of Richmond

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/news/story?id=2061565
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/unc/genrel/auto_pdf/h...
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/rich/genrel/auto_pdf/...


I do not care what is in the UNC hand-book or the NCAA regulations, I am just telling you that if you think that the bigger players pay for stuff around campus you are fooling yourself. Been there, done that, witnessed this multiple times.
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ChiCat2018
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Member Since: 8/27/2018
Post Count: 64

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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/18/2019 1:15:15 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
ChiCat2018 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:

All players receive “money” for their talents, it’s called full cost of attending a university. Some may deserve much more than that, some may not.


Except for football and men's and women's basketball,most athletes don't come close to getting a full scholarship.

The NCAA sets the number of scholarships for each sport.
In wrestling there are 10 weight classes.
Most teams have 2-3 wrestlers per weight class.
The NCAA allots a total of 9 scholarships,that can be "split".
That's not a lot of money to go around.

I played soccer and wrestled on the D1 level.
Never got any scholarship money.

For me anyway,a full ride would have been more then enough compensation.



Shows how much you know about that. More than those three give full-athletic grants in aid. May want to dive into that a bit more, especially on the female side of the ledger. You are missing 3 head count sports in Woman's athletics, and you pick one of the most underfunded sports on the Men's side to make your point. Softball is not headcount but their 12 scholarships go a hell of a lot farther than the Men's baseball teams 11.7. Same with sports like Field Hockey and Lacrosse where the number of scholarships v. the number on the roster leaves a good chunk of cost covered.


My point is,the majority of D1 athletes don't get 4 years of full tuition,room and board.
In my case at least,playing 2 D1 sports with no scholarship money,a full ride would have been sweet and all I would ask for.


And my point is the Athletes that are getting these "endorsements" are going to be the ones on full scholarship. These same athletes are already getting free meals at any restaurant in town and many other perks. So, athletes are not really going to benefit here, only the select few.


If they are then they're in violation of NCAA regulations. Get rid of these regulations and let the kids get money or other perks for being athletes.

'Receive any benefit that is not available to other students at the University' - From UNC handbook
'Student-athletes may not accept gifts or services at reduced prices (e.g., a parent may not buy ipods for each
member of a team as a holiday gift).' - From University of Richmond

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/news/story?id=2061565
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/unc/genrel/auto_pdf/h...
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/rich/genrel/auto_pdf/...


I do not care what is in the UNC hand-book or the NCAA regulations, I am just telling you that if you think that the bigger players pay for stuff around campus you are fooling yourself. Been there, done that, witnessed this multiple times.


Get it out of the rule book then, no need to keep a trash rule that they don't enforce.
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