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Topic:  Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021

Topic:  Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/9/2019 10:40:06 PM 
https://apple.news/A1ACWo3JTQP6gPQgPVfcGLg

Why let the coaches and schools make all the money? Don’t risk it.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/9/2019 11:00:33 PM 
While there were a few interesting bits of information in this article, on balance I'm dumber for having read it. The concept of a college freshman football stud player sitting out two years to prevent himself from being injured in preparation for the NFL draft is ludicrous. This is almost a reductio ad absurdum argument for the exact opposite of the point that was being argued.


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Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/9/2019 11:01:56 PM 
Ridiculous. Obviously, the article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But if he truly did that, and I'm an NFL executive, I want no part of the kid.

In fact, that would be an automatic red flag for me anytime someone sits out part of a season, bowl game, etc. I want competitors that play because they love the game and love their teammates. If your only (or primary) concern is money, you're not the sort of guy I want for my team.

As someone who has hired a lot of people, the absolute worst employees are those concerned with money above everything. If that seemed to be a pervasive question in the interview process, I quickly learned to walk on by.
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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 9:24:54 AM 
He can play in the XFL in 2020.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 9:25:33 AM 
catfan28 wrote:
Ridiculous. Obviously, the article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But if he truly did that, and I'm an NFL executive, I want no part of the kid.

In fact, that would be an automatic red flag for me anytime someone sits out part of a season, bowl game, etc. I want competitors that play because they love the game and love their teammates. If your only (or primary) concern is money, you're not the sort of guy I want for my team.

As someone who has hired a lot of people, the absolute worst employees are those concerned with money above everything. If that seemed to be a pervasive question in the interview process, I quickly learned to walk on by.


My company is looking for people to work for free. What's your email address? I promise you you'll love the work and the team, which should be enough.

And if you do a good enough job for free, you'll earn my respect and I'll be convinced you're not one of those people who just wants money and food and water and shelter and I'll offer you a job through which you'll bring me value and make me more money. Sounds fair to me.

But I think we can all agree that it should be a crime for Trevor Lawrence to make any money off of his talents prior to his 21st birthday.

I mean, could you imagine how terrible it would be for society if Under Armor wanted to pay him to wear their shoes just because he's highly visible, great at what he does and it would be a sound business decision for them as a company?

Which is all just to say: I find it completely ridiculous that the NCAA has managed to convince so many people that there's some sort of morality at stake in maintaining Draconian amateurism rules. Trevor Lawrence should love football so much that he's willing to take an incalculably bad financial risk. And if he doesn't, he has a character flaw that should make him unemployable. Cool system.

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 9:42:28 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcatzblitz
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 10:00:33 AM 
catfan28 wrote:
Ridiculous. Obviously, the article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But if he truly did that, and I'm an NFL executive, I want no part of the kid.

In fact, that would be an automatic red flag for me anytime someone sits out part of a season, bowl game, etc. I want competitors that play because they love the game and love their teammates. If your only (or primary) concern is money, you're not the sort of guy I want for my team.

As someone who has hired a lot of people, the absolute worst employees are those concerned with money above everything. If that seemed to be a pervasive question in the interview process, I quickly learned to walk on by.



You wouldn't be an NFL executive foe long.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 10:21:53 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Ridiculous. Obviously, the article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But if he truly did that, and I'm an NFL executive, I want no part of the kid.

In fact, that would be an automatic red flag for me anytime someone sits out part of a season, bowl game, etc. I want competitors that play because they love the game and love their teammates. If your only (or primary) concern is money, you're not the sort of guy I want for my team.

As someone who has hired a lot of people, the absolute worst employees are those concerned with money above everything. If that seemed to be a pervasive question in the interview process, I quickly learned to walk on by.


My company is looking for people to work for free. What's your email address? I promise you you'll love the work and the team, which should be enough.

And if you do a good enough job for free, you'll earn my respect and I'll be convinced you're not one of those people who just wants money and food and water and shelter and I'll offer you a job through which you'll bring me value and make me more money. Sounds fair to me.

But I think we can all agree that it should be a crime for Trevor Lawrence to make any money off of his talents prior to his 21st birthday.

I mean, could you imagine how terrible it would be for society if Under Armor wanted to pay him to wear their shoes just because he's highly visible, great at what he does and it would be a sound business decision for them as a company?

Which is all just to say: I find it completely ridiculous that the NCAA has managed to convince so many people that there's some sort of morality at stake in maintaining Draconian amateurism rules. Trevor Lawrence should love football so much that he's willing to take an incalculably bad financial risk. And if he doesn't, he has a character flaw that should make him unemployable. Cool system.


I'd love to see your plan then of how we pay guys like this their "fair market value", and at the same adhere to federal law.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 10:42:08 AM 
What federal law?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 10:52:48 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
Ridiculous. Obviously, the article is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But if he truly did that, and I'm an NFL executive, I want no part of the kid.

In fact, that would be an automatic red flag for me anytime someone sits out part of a season, bowl game, etc. I want competitors that play because they love the game and love their teammates. If your only (or primary) concern is money, you're not the sort of guy I want for my team.

As someone who has hired a lot of people, the absolute worst employees are those concerned with money above everything. If that seemed to be a pervasive question in the interview process, I quickly learned to walk on by.


My company is looking for people to work for free. What's your email address? I promise you you'll love the work and the team, which should be enough.

And if you do a good enough job for free, you'll earn my respect and I'll be convinced you're not one of those people who just wants money and food and water and shelter and I'll offer you a job through which you'll bring me value and make me more money. Sounds fair to me.

But I think we can all agree that it should be a crime for Trevor Lawrence to make any money off of his talents prior to his 21st birthday.

I mean, could you imagine how terrible it would be for society if Under Armor wanted to pay him to wear their shoes just because he's highly visible, great at what he does and it would be a sound business decision for them as a company?

Which is all just to say: I find it completely ridiculous that the NCAA has managed to convince so many people that there's some sort of morality at stake in maintaining Draconian amateurism rules. Trevor Lawrence should love football so much that he's willing to take an incalculably bad financial risk. And if he doesn't, he has a character flaw that should make him unemployable. Cool system.


I'd love to see your plan then of how we pay guys like this their "fair market value", and at the same adhere to federal law.


We don't. We just lift restrictions on their ability to make money off of their own likeness and endorsements.

The universities can continue to compensate them with athletic scholarships, and players who are able to earn outside income can do so. Zion can get a shoe deal, and DJ Cooper can appear in ads for O'Betty's for a few grand. Hell, EA Sports can re-launch NCAA games and the players can negotiate for their share of the profits.

I have trouble understanding why that's not an obvious solution here.

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 10:58:56 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 11:29:04 AM 
cc-cat wrote:
What federal law?


Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, 20 U.S.C. §1681 et seq
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 12:29:55 PM 
Bobcatzblitz wrote:
You wouldn't be an NFL executive foe long.


Hey - maybe, maybe not. I'd do things radically different. In a league that is almost entirely homogeneous, I'd be the team doing things that defy conventional wisdom. It probably wouldn't work, but it would be a better plan than all of the retread coaches and executives getting hired this week.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 12:47:58 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
My company is looking for people to work for free. What's your email address? I promise you you'll love the work and the team, which should be enough.

And if you do a good enough job for free, you'll earn my respect and I'll be convinced you're not one of those people who just wants money and food and water and shelter and I'll offer you a job through which you'll bring me value and make me more money. Sounds fair to me.

But I think we can all agree that it should be a crime for Trevor Lawrence to make any money off of his talents prior to his 21st birthday.

I mean, could you imagine how terrible it would be for society if Under Armor wanted to pay him to wear their shoes just because he's highly visible, great at what he does and it would be a sound business decision for them as a company?

Which is all just to say: I find it completely ridiculous that the NCAA has managed to convince so many people that there's some sort of morality at stake in maintaining Draconian amateurism rules. Trevor Lawrence should love football so much that he's willing to take an incalculably bad financial risk. And if he doesn't, he has a character flaw that should make him unemployable. Cool system.


An argument about providing shelter/food/water in this context is completely irrelevant. We're talking about future multi-millionaires, not everyday Joes.

I stand by saying those whose primary concern in their work is money are folks that I wanted no part of in my career. Sadly, about 90% of pro athletes fall into this category. It would be refreshing for once to see someone turn down the mega contract, push for funds to be invested in a winning team and realize that you don't need $10 million/year to be fulfilled in this world.

For someone who seems to have rather liberal political positions, you always seem to be on the side of millionaires. Bernie may want to have a word with you :)
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ChiCat2018
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 12:53:52 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
What federal law?


Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, 20 U.S.C. §1681 et seq


"The principal objective of Title IX is to avoid the use of federal money to support sex discrimination in education programs and to provide individual citizens effective protection against those practices."

Nothing I see that would prohibit paying athletes. I'm fine with the women signing shoe deals, and being in advertisements. There are plenty of women athletes and programs that could probably out earn the men.
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 1:25:35 PM 
catfan28 wrote:

It would be refreshing for once to see someone turn down the mega contract, push for funds to be invested in a winning team and realize that you don't need $10 million/year to be fulfilled in this world.



Tom Brady for you on line 1
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 1:32:48 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
Tom Brady for you on line 1


Bingo. It does happen - and look how it's paid off for Brady and the Pats.

But it's much more the exception than the rule.
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Brian Smith
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 1:34:36 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
catfan28 wrote:

It would be refreshing for once to see someone turn down the mega contract, push for funds to be invested in a winning team and realize that you don't need $10 million/year to be fulfilled in this world.



Tom Brady for you on line 1


(Snort)

Bob Kraft will get every last dollar to Brady he gave up. Probably in retirement. But he'll get his money.

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 1:34:56 PM by Brian Smith


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ChiCat2018
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 1:52:37 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
mf279801 wrote:
Tom Brady for you on line 1


Bingo. It does happen - and look how it's paid off for Brady and the Pats.

But it's much more the exception than the rule.


For a lot of these guys its a way out of generational poverty. I have no problem with athletes trying to get their friends and family out of some really terrible situations. You can't really judge these people for their motivations, most people want to be great at what they do, but a life worry free of finances and being able to help out others is also a noble pursuit.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 2:33:56 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
My company is looking for people to work for free. What's your email address? I promise you you'll love the work and the team, which should be enough.

And if you do a good enough job for free, you'll earn my respect and I'll be convinced you're not one of those people who just wants money and food and water and shelter and I'll offer you a job through which you'll bring me value and make me more money. Sounds fair to me.

But I think we can all agree that it should be a crime for Trevor Lawrence to make any money off of his talents prior to his 21st birthday.

I mean, could you imagine how terrible it would be for society if Under Armor wanted to pay him to wear their shoes just because he's highly visible, great at what he does and it would be a sound business decision for them as a company?

Which is all just to say: I find it completely ridiculous that the NCAA has managed to convince so many people that there's some sort of morality at stake in maintaining Draconian amateurism rules. Trevor Lawrence should love football so much that he's willing to take an incalculably bad financial risk. And if he doesn't, he has a character flaw that should make him unemployable. Cool system.


An argument about providing shelter/food/water in this context is completely irrelevant. We're talking about future multi-millionaires, not everyday Joes.

I stand by saying those whose primary concern in their work is money are folks that I wanted no part of in my career. Sadly, about 90% of pro athletes fall into this category. It would be refreshing for once to see someone turn down the mega contract, push for funds to be invested in a winning team and realize that you don't need $10 million/year to be fulfilled in this world.

For someone who seems to have rather liberal political positions, you always seem to be on the side of millionaires. Bernie may want to have a word with you :)


A couple of things:

I'm 'on the side of millionaires' because we're on a message board about sports, an industry that pays a lot of people a lot of money. I'm actually just on the side of labor and ensuring people are paid for their labor in line with what the market bears. I also largely believe that the labor market's pretty efficient, and think people should be free to pursue compensation without folks like you moralizing about how that somehow makes them bad people.

The real irony is how utterly pointless the root of your moralizing is. You think it somehow demonstrates poor character to value compensation over football. Football. A game people play that doesn't matter even a little bit. You think the moral thing to do, somehow, is to value football over providing for generations of your family. It's patently silly and completely illogical. I mean here I thought providing for one's family and working hard to make sure nobody I love ever has to worry about going hungry or bankrupt from a medical bill was a good thing to do. Turns out I should be making really stupid financial risks because I love to play Skeeball, or whatever.

Let's say Trevor Lawrence has a career ending injury his junior year, because he opts to play instead of sitting out. In your weird mind, it shows more sound character to do that because of football, than to sit out a year, be guaranteed a big NFL contract and be able to provide for the people closest to him forever. That's a weird hierarchy of priorities.

Also, to be clear we're not actually discussing millionaires. We're discussing Trevor Lawrence, who has to-date earned exactly $0 playing football. It's created opportunity, yes. But he has been paid $0. He is not a millionaire yet. That he's likely to be a future millionaire doesn't make him a millionaire. There are any number of things that could keep that from being the case. And really, we're discussing Trevor Lawrence because he's a particularly clear example of a real issue. It applies to Delvar Barrett, too. If he'd been able to appear in an ad or earn at all to help support his mother, I think that would have been, you know, good.

And just to be super, super clear here: if I'm on the side of millionaires, you're siding with billionaires. To me, the 'little guy' is poor athlete who makes money for their university and can't afford to get home for Thanksgiving. Some of them will become millionaires. The vast majority of them won't. I think it's absurd the level of control the NCAA takes over what and how athletes can earn.

Who is the little guy you think you're standing up for?

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 3:00:56 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:04:22 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Let's say Trevor Lawrence has a career ending injury his junior year, because he opts to play instead of sitting out.



Is there any reason that Lawernce couldn't take out an insurance policy as a protection against a career ending or even career limiting injury ?



Last Edited: 1/10/2019 3:04:38 PM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:05:59 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Let's say Trevor Lawrence has a career ending injury his junior year, because he opts to play instead of sitting out.



Is there any reason that Lawernce couldn't take out an insurance policy as a protection against a career ending or even career limiting injury ?





He could. But a) who will pay for it and b) there's still a ton of risk. No policy will pay close to a 15 year NFL career. Or even just a rookie contract.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:18:03 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


Let's say Trevor Lawrence has a career ending injury his junior year, because he opts to play instead of sitting out.



Is there any reason that Lawernce couldn't take out an insurance policy as a protection against a career ending or even career limiting injury ?





He could. But a) who will pay for it and b) there's still a ton of risk. No policy will pay close to a 15 year NFL career. Or even just a rookie contract.


Given the odds of suffering a career ending injury,the premiums for that type of policy shouldn't be expensive.

I would think you could get a policy for several million dollars.

Would it be as much as his contract and signing bonus ?

Probably not,but it would still be enough to let you live comfortably.

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:24:32 PM 
Sense of shame, I completely agree with all of your posts. Dabo, signed an 8 year 54M deal last year. Why doesn't he just give a few mill per year to his players? He wouldn't.

Insurance on players is a specialty line and only sold by someone like Lloyd's of London. Very, very expensive.

This sham will only change if guys like Lawrence start to walk away.
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Brian Smith
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:36:49 PM 
Dennis Dodd reported (in his usual dogged, thorough fashion) in 2016 that it costs $8,000 for every $1 million of coverage and the insurance companies are stingy on paying out.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/leonard-f... /

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 3:38:42 PM by Brian Smith


Been kicking up sparks/we set the flames free/The windows are locked now so what'll it be?/A house on fire or a rising sea?

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:37:40 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Sense of shame, I completely agree with all of your posts. Dabo, signed an 8 year 54M deal last year. Why doesn't he just give a few mill per year to his players? He wouldn't.


FWIW, I feel that coaches are vastly overpaid too. I'd be all for some sort of cap for head coach compensation in the NCAA. Of course, that will never happen so long as the big boys are writing their own rules.

Not going to get in a back-and-forth with Sense of Shame, we are firmly in opposite camps (as is typically the case). But two points I'll toss out:

1. I'm most on the side of college athletes at the MAC level and below, 99% of which will never sniff the pros and deserve to have a great college experience playing sports. Rules that are titled to benefit the behemoths (like player endorsements) don't help those guys or the fans/students/alumni of schools like Ohio.

2. Almost every school that sponsors college athletics loses money on it. A TON of money on it. If there's one thing that I wish you could see eye-to-eye with me, it's the fact that college athletics is a money-loser for all but a small handful of programs. The "poor athlete" you talk about is probably costing his university $50,000 a year in student fees.

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 3:39:06 PM by catfan28

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Trevor Lawrence should sit out until 2021
   Posted: 1/10/2019 3:51:58 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
....
To me, the 'little guy' is poor athlete who makes money for their university and can't afford to get home for Thanksgiving. Some of them will become millionaires. The vast majority of them won't.
...

Just to be clear, very, very few Universities actually "make money" from football. I wonder, sometimes, how football, and other sports, came to be a University thing. I suppose it has to do with the ancient belief that you need a sound mind, and a sound body, but really, there is no logical connection between big time sports and universities.

What would the world look like, if Universities didn't have football? Presumably some farm system would evolve, as exists in Baseball, and kids would be drafted out of high school and into farm systems. There, I presume the bulk would make a modest wage, and the stars would be paid very, very well.

Contrast that to the existing system, where their "pay" is (tax-free) room, board, health coverage, coaching, and an education, plus, more recently, a small additional amount to cover other costs. What is the value of this package? Tuition and fees are about $39,000 in-state, if I'm reading the data correctly. Room and board is another $11,500. Health insurance is probably $12,000. All told, in the current system, they are "paid" about $65,000. Adjusted for the fact that they don't pay taxes on their "pay", it would be equivalent to a taxable income of perhaps $80,000 a year. In a farm system, the stars would get much more than that, and the average players would get much less.

Thus, the current system is akin to socialism - every gives their best, and everyone gets the same "pay", more than some would get, and less than others would get.

Last Edited: 1/10/2019 3:56:06 PM by L.C.


"When two men always agree, one of them is unnecessary." William Wrigley

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