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Topic:  RE: Kneeling penalty

Topic:  RE: Kneeling penalty
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cc-cat
General User

Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,820

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/11/2018 4:22:43 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:


Your last two sentences again indicate how those who criticize those who kneel miss the point of the kneeling. It has NOTHING to do with the miltary. It's all about the inequities that continue in our society. This opinion piece from today's NY Times is most enlightening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/09/opinion/african-americ...


Regardless of their motivations,the players actions during the National Anthem are perceived by the general public as being anti-military.

There is an old saying in politics,"if you're defending,you're losing".

To me,that's what the players are up against here.
They can say anything they want about why they are doing what they're doing,its what the public sees that carries the most weight.




rpbobcat, thanks. To me this is like those who wish to protest war at funerals of KIAs. Disrespect the Colors/Anthem, sorry, they stand for what is right in this country. I still believe that.


it is very dangerous and even unamerican when people equate the anthem and the flag solely to the military. given their comments, rpbobcat and bcat2 want our country to become a military state. worshipping military power and commitment above individual rights and freedoms. this is certainly not what our forefathers visioned. sad and unacceptable view of our county.


I also fail to see how you can interpret my comments as,in some way, equating the National Anthem,only to the military,or that I "worship military power".


Oh its a complete misrepresentation of what you said and what your intentions are - but my misrepresentation of your views better serves my argument - and I did this consciously. This is similar to how Trump and the right completely manipulated and continue to misrepresent the basis of the protest to better serve his/their views and perspective (not about the anthem, or flag, or military, but about the lack of our country to deliver on the ideals of the Pledge of Allegiance ("liberty and justice for all").

Like Trump (and the far right) I could continue to play the misrepresentation game, but that would be disrespectful of you, and done so simply to be self-serving - to bad POTUS doesn't take such stock.




Last Edited: 6/11/2018 4:45:44 PM by cc-cat
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L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,064

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/11/2018 5:16:37 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
...
True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.

I don't think there is any agreement as to what the "truth" is, and I am very sure there never will be. As a result, you never see any discussion of those issues anymore. Instead, the discussion is always about NFL players.

By the way, for those that think this involves an issue of free speech, let me provide an alternate scenario. Let's change it three ways - first, from big business to small business, second from the current issue to some alternate one, and third, change the protest to one that some people might feel differently about. In doing so, we can see if it is indeed "free speech" that they support, or perhaps only this particular speech, against these particular businesses.

Here is my hypothetical:
Suppose a small caterer hires a new employee, who happens to to be a Moslem. The caterer tries to get business from everyone, and books gay marriages as well as other types. The next wedding on the calendar happens to be a gay marriage, to be held in a public park. The Moslem is assigned to the wedding, and wears a pin that says "Homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, and an abomination before Allah". On Monday, following the wedding, three previously booked gay weddings call in and cancel, representing about 5% of his future bookings. This was a silent form of protest, held in a public place, but held while on the payroll of his employer, and which harmed that employer. Can the employer terminate him? If not, is it because of his right to free speech in a pubic place? Or, perhaps, because of his right to freedom of religion?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bcat2
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Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 4,295

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/11/2018 8:38:39 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
SBH wrote:
Wait, you're equating respectfully kneeling on the sidelines of a professional sports contest with protesting at a military funeral? That's a page right out of the White House's script.

I don't think it's surprising that there are people that are offended.


of course this comment has nothing to do with what SBH said.


True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.




It is about being offended. I have said I love those colors and the Anthem. I have said it is their right to protest, though, their employers have a say about protesting on company time, wearing the company brand. I admit to being offended by disrepect of the colors/Anthem. Some of us with multiple folded casket flags are. Some of us who have kissed wives and babies goodbye to deploy are. Some of us who have performed military honors, hopefully, to provide some comfort to next of kin are. Alan, please do not suppose to know about other's perspective.

Last Edited: 6/11/2018 9:25:51 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/11/2018 9:39:48 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
SBH wrote:
Wait, you're equating respectfully kneeling on the sidelines of a professional sports contest with protesting at a military funeral? That's a page right out of the White House's script.

I don't think it's surprising that there are people that are offended.


of course this comment has nothing to do with what SBH said.


True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.




It is about being offended. I have said I love those colors and the Anthem. I have said it is their right to protest, though, their employers have a say about protesting on company time, wearing the company brand. I admit to being offended by disrepect of the colors/Anthem. Some of us with multiple folded casket flags are. Some of us who have kissed wives and babies goodbye to deploy are. Some of us who have performed military honors, hopefully, to provide some comfort to next of kin are. Alan, please do not suppose to know about other's perspective.



Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.
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Bcat2
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Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 4,295

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/11/2018 9:50:25 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
SBH wrote:
Wait, you're equating respectfully kneeling on the sidelines of a professional sports contest with protesting at a military funeral? That's a page right out of the White House's script.

I don't think it's surprising that there are people that are offended.


of course this comment has nothing to do with what SBH said.


True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.




It is about being offended. I have said I love those colors and the Anthem. I have said it is their right to protest, though, their employers have a say about protesting on company time, wearing the company brand. I admit to being offended by disrepect of the colors/Anthem. Some of us with multiple folded casket flags are. Some of us who have kissed wives and babies goodbye to deploy are. Some of us who have performed military honors, hopefully, to provide some comfort to next of kin are. Alan, please do not suppose to know about other's perspective.



Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



Diversion. Sorry Alan, not chasing you down rabbit holes. Nice try though.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bcat2
General User

Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 4,295

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 6:36:47 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
...
True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.

I don't think there is any agreement as to what the "truth" is, and I am very sure there never will be. As a result, you never see any discussion of those issues anymore. Instead, the discussion is always about NFL players.

By the way, for those that think this involves an issue of free speech, let me provide an alternate scenario. Let's change it three ways - first, from big business to small business, second from the current issue to some alternate one, and third, change the protest to one that some people might feel differently about. In doing so, we can see if it is indeed "free speech" that they support, or perhaps only this particular speech, against these particular businesses.

Here is my hypothetical:
Suppose a small caterer hires a new employee, who happens to to be a Moslem. The caterer tries to get business from everyone, and books gay marriages as well as other types. The next wedding on the calendar happens to be a gay marriage, to be held in a public park. The Moslem is assigned to the wedding, and wears a pin that says "Homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, and an abomination before Allah". On Monday, following the wedding, three previously booked gay weddings call in and cancel, representing about 5% of his future bookings. This was a silent form of protest, held in a public place, but held while on the payroll of his employer, and which harmed that employer. Can the employer terminate him? If not, is it because of his right to free speech in a pubic place? Or, perhaps, because of his right to freedom of religion?


Very thought provoking query. Would you be willing to consider a bench appointment?

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,503

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 7:18:09 AM 
L.C. wrote:

Here is my hypothetical:
Suppose a small caterer hires a new employee, who happens to to be a Moslem. The caterer tries to get business from everyone, and books gay marriages as well as other types. The next wedding on the calendar happens to be a gay marriage, to be held in a public park. The Moslem is assigned to the wedding, and wears a pin that says "Homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, and an abomination before Allah". On Monday, following the wedding, three previously booked gay weddings call in and cancel, representing about 5% of his future bookings. This was a silent form of protest, held in a public place, but held while on the payroll of his employer, and which harmed that employer. Can the employer terminate him? If not, is it because of his right to free speech in a pubic place? Or, perhaps, because of his right to freedom of religion?


Let me answer your question with a couple of other questions:

1.Was the employee in any type of uniform ?
(At my company we provided shirts and hats. Employees were not allowed to "alter" them in any way,including patches,buttons etc. Same with bumper stickers on our vehicles).

2.One of my clients runs a large catering facility.
He or a member of his staff "inspect" every employee,before an event.
Was that the case here?
Did he have the pin on before the event started or add it later ?

3.Does the caterer have any type of "Employee Manual" that spells out what "behavior" is acceptable, while representing the company as an employee ?
(We have very strict rules about "phone etiquette" ,consuming any alcoholic beverage while at work)

I would think that,unless there are clear policies in place it would be difficult to fire someone for a "first offense".





Last Edited: 6/12/2018 7:21:52 AM by rpbobcat
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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 9:47:46 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
SBH wrote:
Wait, you're equating respectfully kneeling on the sidelines of a professional sports contest with protesting at a military funeral? That's a page right out of the White House's script.

I don't think it's surprising that there are people that are offended.


of course this comment has nothing to do with what SBH said.


True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.




It is about being offended. I have said I love those colors and the Anthem. I have said it is their right to protest, though, their employers have a say about protesting on company time, wearing the company brand. I admit to being offended by disrepect of the colors/Anthem. Some of us with multiple folded casket flags are. Some of us who have kissed wives and babies goodbye to deploy are. Some of us who have performed military honors, hopefully, to provide some comfort to next of kin are. Alan, please do not suppose to know about other's perspective.



Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



Diversion. Sorry Alan, not chasing you down rabbit holes. Nice try though.


Diversion or just another example of something that makes you uncomfortable or, oh let me see, was it offended. If you claim to honor the flag, you can't pick and choose which parts of the flag code you'll honor.

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,503

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 10:13:52 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:

Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



I looked up the Flag Code at http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html .

That site shows that there are several numbered "sections" to the code (&171,etc.)

Just wanted to know what numbered section(s) you're referring too.

I presume its &176 (& 8,C&J).

If that's the case,I agree that the sections you sited are, on occasion, violated.

However,although they do not follow the Flag Code,the "violations" are not done with any disrespect.

As far as kneeling,you should read &171(&301) which covers conduct during the playing of the National Anthem.


Last Edited: 6/12/2018 11:00:33 AM by rpbobcat
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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 10:43:52 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



I looked up the Flag Code at http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html .

That site shows that there are several numbered "sections" to the code (&171,etc.)

Just wanted to know what numbered section(s) you're referring too.

I presume its &176.





Part 8 c and j.

https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Ohio
Post Count: 4,304

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 10:48:45 AM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
SBH wrote:
Wait, you're equating respectfully kneeling on the sidelines of a professional sports contest with protesting at a military funeral? That's a page right out of the White House's script.

I don't think it's surprising that there are people that are offended.


of course this comment has nothing to do with what SBH said.


True and I don't think it's a matter of being offended as it is a matter of being made uncomfortable by having to face the truth on a variety of society's ills.




It is about being offended. I have said I love those colors and the Anthem. I have said it is their right to protest, though, their employers have a say about protesting on company time, wearing the company brand. I admit to being offended by disrepect of the colors/Anthem. Some of us with multiple folded casket flags are. Some of us who have kissed wives and babies goodbye to deploy are. Some of us who have performed military honors, hopefully, to provide some comfort to next of kin are. Alan, please do not suppose to know about other's perspective.



But this again shows you're missing the point. The flag and the anthem aren't the military and the military isn't the flag and the anthem.

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,503

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 10:56:15 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



I looked up the Flag Code at http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html .

That site shows that there are several numbered "sections" to the code (&171,etc.)

Just wanted to know what numbered section(s) you're referring too.

I presume its &176.





I just edited my response using the section numbering in that document.

Part 8 c and j.

https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf


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Bcat2
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Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 4,295

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 11:49:40 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



I looked up the Flag Code at http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html .

That site shows that there are several numbered "sections" to the code (&171,etc.)

Just wanted to know what numbered section(s) you're referring too.

I presume its &176 (& 8,C&J).

If that's the case,I agree that the sections you sited are, on occasion, violated.

However,although they do not follow the Flag Code,the "violations" are not done with any disrespect.

As far as kneeling,you should read &171(&301) which covers conduct during the playing of the National Anthem.




Local Elks march parades with about thirty members stretching flat a 10'X20' Post Flag. Violation, not done with any disrespect. Skydiver guiding a flag onto a field. Violation, not done with any disrespect. Knowing the code, these make me uncomfortable, but, I get the intent to show pride. Intent to disrespect is another ballgame.

Last Edited: 6/13/2018 6:46:24 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,064

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 3:03:40 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Let me answer your question with a couple of other questions:

1.Was the employee in any type of uniform ?
(At my company we provided shirts and hats. Employees were not allowed to "alter" them in any way,including patches,buttons etc. Same with bumper stickers on our vehicles).

2.One of my clients runs a large catering facility.
He or a member of his staff "inspect" every employee,before an event.
Was that the case here?
Did he have the pin on before the event started or add it later ?

3.Does the caterer have any type of "Employee Manual" that spells out what "behavior" is acceptable, while representing the company as an employee ?
(We have very strict rules about "phone etiquette" ,consuming any alcoholic beverage while at work)

I would think that,unless there are clear policies in place it would be difficult to fire someone for a "first offense".

Thank you for the interesting reply to my hypothetical question. I agree that the answers to your questions would affect the ability of the business owner to take action, and how strong an action he could take. Nevertheless, your questions do indicate that you believe that he could take some action regardless of the answers. Thus, say that there was no dress code, he didn't inspect the employes, and he had no written manual, I agree that he couldn't fire the person for his first offense. However, I suspect that you believe he could still give the employee a warning, and make sure that the employee understood that he was not to do this in the future.

If we apply the rules some propose for he kneeling situation, the business owner would have no recourse. A dress code or inspection would be unenforceable, since the employee's right to free speech and his right to his religious beliefs would be more important the the business owner's right to operate his business as he sees fit.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/12/2018 4:07:47 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:

Are you offended by letters c and j in the flag code? The NFL violates this part of the code on many occasions throughout the year. And as far as I can tell, the word kneeling is no where to found in this code.



I looked up the Flag Code at http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html .

That site shows that there are several numbered "sections" to the code (&171,etc.)

Just wanted to know what numbered section(s) you're referring too.

I presume its &176 (& 8,C&J).

If that's the case,I agree that the sections you sited are, on occasion, violated.

However,although they do not follow the Flag Code,the "violations" are not done with any disrespect.

As far as kneeling,you should read &171(&301) which covers conduct during the playing of the National Anthem.




Local Elks march parades with about thirty members stretching a Post Flag, 10`X20`, flat. Violation, not done with any disrespect. Skydiver guiding a flag onto a field. Violation, not done with any disrespect. Knowing the code, these make me uncomfortable, but, I get the intent to show pride. Intent to disrespect is another ballgame.



I think I finally got it. You view kneeling as a sign of disrespct while I view it as a statement in front of the largest audience possible about the conditions in America. Supporting anyone's right to legally make such statements, I also believe that they are liable for the consequences of their actions.

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,503

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/13/2018 7:02:05 AM 
L.C. wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Let me answer your question with a couple of other questions:

1.Was the employee in any type of uniform ?
(At my company we provided shirts and hats. Employees were not allowed to "alter" them in any way,including patches,buttons etc. Same with bumper stickers on our vehicles).

2.One of my clients runs a large catering facility.
He or a member of his staff "inspect" every employee,before an event.
Was that the case here?
Did he have the pin on before the event started or add it later ?

3.Does the caterer have any type of "Employee Manual" that spells out what "behavior" is acceptable, while representing the company as an employee ?
(We have very strict rules about "phone etiquette" ,consuming any alcoholic beverage while at work)

I would think that,unless there are clear policies in place it would be difficult to fire someone for a "first offense".

Thank you for the interesting reply to my hypothetical question. I agree that the answers to your questions would affect the ability of the business owner to take action, and how strong an action he could take. Nevertheless, your questions do indicate that you believe that he could take some action regardless of the answers. Thus, say that there was no dress code, he didn't inspect the employes, and he had no written manual, I agree that he couldn't fire the person for his first offense. However, I suspect that you believe he could still give the employee a warning, and make sure that the employee understood that he was not to do this in the future.

If we apply the rules some propose for he kneeling situation, the business owner would have no recourse. A dress code or inspection would be unenforceable, since the employee's right to free speech and his right to his religious beliefs would be more important the the business owner's right to operate his business as he sees fit.




You're correct ,I believe the employer could issue a warning and tell the person in question he was not to do that in the future.

I can also tell you that,if this did happen,and I didn't have a written policy,I would put one in place.

I also agree that the rules some people have suggested for kneeling would eliminate the business owner's ability to operate his business as he sees fit.

Personally,I think the anthem issue won't be fully resolved until the next contract with the players' union is negotiated.
Then they can put a policy in place the entire league has to follow.
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L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,064

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/13/2018 11:43:38 AM 
Maintaining a consistent belief in personal freedoms is not easy because it's all too easy to get distracted by whether the cause is one which you agree with or not, or by the people involved. In this case, few have sympathy for the owners, considering they are billionaires, and many have sympathy for the cause that the players support. Yet, you can't pick and choose, and the same policy has to apply to the caterer. Even though people might be more favorably disposed towards the small caterer, and less disposed for the person pushing his own religion, the same policy has to apply; you can't change the policy based on the nature of the people involved, or the specific speech involved.

If you start picking and choosing which causes are allowed to speak, and which ones are not, then you don't have free speech at all.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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bobcat2nc
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Member Since: 12/28/2004
Post Count: 584

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Kneeling penalty
   Posted: 6/23/2018 8:47:51 PM 
“However,although they do not follow the Flag Code,the "violations" are not done with any disrespect.”

Many would say that any violation of the flag code is disrespectful. It is pretty convenient to say “I think that is respectful but this is not.” The reason for a violation is not relevant to whether it is a violation.

You either respect the flag code or you don’t.

I stand, take my hat off and am respectful of the flag code. No one knows, except me, what I am thinking about all the things that other people say that the flag stands for. It is a symbol of so many things to so many people. There are 2 reasons I would not run a lap with the American flag on my shoulders after winning an Olympic gold medal 1) it is disrespectful of the flag and 2) goes without saying.

If the league or owner has rules then I do believe an employee should follow the rules. Absent that there is no penalty nor punishment for a violation of the flag code prescribed in the code.
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