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I had professors who were prepared to fail the student-athlete for missing class due to participation in University sponsored NCAA DI athletics competition. The Athletics-based Academic Support Advisor is going to work across the University within the guidelines of the rules (which they know and understand - and are changing all the time btw - yet they're required to know and understand) to find a reasonable solution so the student-athlete doesn't fail out of school for missing classes due to playing a sport which that same school recruited him/her to play (and are required to play to get the financial aid they signed up for). Just one of many examples. Academic-based counselors aren't going to advocate for the student-athlete in these scenarios because they don't report into the athletics department and guess who's going to suffer...you're student-athletes and then your athletics reputation. Boy,does this bring back memories (nightmares would be more like it). As I've said before,I played D1 soccer for O.U. and wrestled D1 for FDU. That was back before there were any type of advisor for athletes. The only thing we got was a code number to put us at the front of the "line" to schedule our classes. Most classes didn't have mandatory attendance. But labs and exams were another thing. Trying to schedule around games was up to the individual athlete and was,at times,a challenge. Some professors were really great,and worked with you. Others could be a real pain in the butt. Still remember a couple of times where I had to rush through a lab to make the team bus to a game or match. Back to Top 74 Cat General User Member Since: 2/23/2005 Post Count: 101 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 7:26:39 AM  According to an April 17, 2017 article in The Post, “…currently Student-athletes at OU use the 10,000 square-foot Joan and Wallace Phillips Center, in the third and fourth floors of Peden Tower, for academics. The facility accommodates about 440 students a year and includes 10 tutoring rooms and a 42-seat classroom...” Is this center being run/overseen by the “academic” side of the equation? If not, then their current interest or motivation in an athlete’s academic career is suspect from at least my viewpoint. Back to Top Ohio69 General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 2,992 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 8:46:15 AM  L.C. wrote: I'm a little puzzled by this whole discussion. The "local chapter of the AAUP" hates athletics. So they take every opportunity to attack it. That's all you need to know. Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?..... Back to Top Kinggeorge4 General User Member Since: 12/22/2004 Location: Guysville, OH Post Count: 966 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 10:11:34 AM  After listening to my student employees the last three years complain about the poor advising, misinformation, lack of availability of said advisors in the academic section. I wouldn't want them anywhere near the place. GO BOBCATS GEORGE Back to Top L.C. General User Member Since: 8/31/2005 Location: United States Post Count: 10,067 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 11:00:03 AM  Ohio69 wrote: L.C. wrote: I'm a little puzzled by this whole discussion. The "local chapter of the AAUP" hates athletics. So they take every opportunity to attack it. That's all you need to know. Well, that, and the post by CA Bobcat, which really clarified my view of the Sook Center. “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,478 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 11:03:00 AM  CA Bobcat wrote: Wow, where to begin. First, I was an Assistant AD for Academic Services and Compliance at an NCAA DI institution. If anyone else has held a similar position, please let me/us know. I have overseen an academic center for student-athletes and a certified tutor program. The idea of having the Academic side of the University oversee or manage the Sook Center is just dumb. For starters, cross functional alignment is an integral component of running an effective and compliant academic services program which includes academic support staff, coaches, student-athletes and athletics leadership. Everyone must be on board with the program and how it's being run. That won't work when the people running the program don't report into the same department as the people participating in the program, especially at OU, where the Academic side appears to have a pretty major "beef" with college athletics in general. Yeah, that's going to go real well. If you don't see this as just a political move by these "academics" who have their panties in a bunch about an athletics only facility, then you're totally out to lunch. Then there's the rules component. Dear God, the number of times I had to educate the Academic side about all the NCAA eligibility rules, etc. only to have to continually remind and educate them because the traditional "advisors" kept screwing things up which would render a student-athlete ineligible. I can't imagine people from that arm of the University world trying (or caring to) manage things properly. I could go on and on. People need to get it through their thick skulls...student-athletes are special and have special needs that require special attention and care from a special academic support staff. Example: my university had a very strict class attendance policy and due to the proximity of the schools in conference, we had soccer and tennis teams traveling all over the Earth during the week for competition. I had professors who were prepared to fail the student-athlete for missing class due to participation in University sponsored NCAA DI athletics competition. The Athletics-based Academic Support Advisor is going to work across the University within the guidelines of the rules (which they know and understand - and are changing all the time btw - yet they're required to know and understand) to find a reasonable solution so the student-athlete doesn't fail out of school for missing classes due to playing a sport which that same school recruited him/her to play (and are required to play to get the financial aid they signed up for). Just one of many examples. Academic-based counselors aren't going to advocate for the student-athlete in these scenarios because they don't report into the athletics department and guess who's going to suffer...you're student-athletes and then your athletics reputation. This is also a matter of institutional control and as an AD, I'll be damned if I'm going to be on the hook to ensure my athletics department complies with all rules and regulations when I've got a whole arm of my operation that's out of my control. That's a lot of exposure and frankly, I don't want to be an AD where I don't have that control. It just takes one rogue or ignorant academic counselor or tutor to destroy everything and that can happen whether it lives on the Academic side or the Athletics side but let's be serious - where is it going to get undivided attention and oversight?!? Based on experience, there's only one correct answer - Athletics. Why aren't these same "academics" requesting that the Athletics business affairs be managed by the University business office? Or, the NCAA compliance affairs be managed by the University Legal arm? Or, the Athletics fundraising handled exclusively by the University Advancement team? NCAA secondary violations and major infractions can easily occur in each of those areas, too, so why not? Umm, because that would also be very dumb and ultimately, because none of those functions are building an athletics only facility. Exactly, as I stated earlier, the concept of the General advisor having any clue about the needs of the athlete and the legalities is laughable. What some here seem to forget is the faculty is who serves as advisors, and how many faculty dislike athletics? How many faculty know and understand that we need to keep theses athletes out of these classes because due to schedule alone, they will fail this prof's class. Or, the required hours for eligibility, the required progress in a degree field. No thanks, keep academic advising with traditional students, and continue giving the legal and allowable academic support to athletes. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 6,913 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 12:18:29 PM  74 Cat wrote: According to an April 17, 2017 article in The Post, “…currently Student-athletes at OU use the 10,000 square-foot Joan and Wallace Phillips Center, in the third and fourth floors of Peden Tower, for academics. The facility accommodates about 440 students a year and includes 10 tutoring rooms and a 42-seat classroom...” Is this center being run/overseen by the “academic” side of the equation? If not, then their current interest or motivation in an athlete’s academic career is suspect from at least my viewpoint. I would assume no. Each or most FBS level athletic departments have their own separate Academic Advising employees. They may sometimes bring in tutors from the general population to help, though. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 6,913 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 12:25:39 PM  CA Bobcat wrote: Wow, where to begin. First, I was an Assistant AD for Academic Services and Compliance at an NCAA DI institution. If anyone else has held a similar position, please let me/us know. I have overseen an academic center for student-athletes and a certified tutor program. The idea of having the Academic side of the University oversee or manage the Sook Center is just dumb. For starters, cross functional alignment is an integral component of running an effective and compliant academic services program which includes academic support staff, coaches, student-athletes and athletics leadership. Everyone must be on board with the program and how it's being run. That won't work when the people running the program don't report into the same department as the people participating in the program, especially at OU, where the Academic side appears to have a pretty major "beef" with college athletics in general. Yeah, that's going to go real well. If you don't see this as just a political move by these "academics" who have their panties in a bunch about an athletics only facility, then you're totally out to lunch. Then there's the rules component. Dear God, the number of times I had to educate the Academic side about all the NCAA eligibility rules, etc. only to have to continually remind and educate them because the traditional "advisors" kept screwing things up which would render a student-athlete ineligible. I can't imagine people from that arm of the University world trying (or caring to) manage things properly. I could go on and on. People need to get it through their thick skulls...student-athletes are special and have special needs that require special attention and care from a special academic support staff. Example: my university had a very strict class attendance policy and due to the proximity of the schools in conference, we had soccer and tennis teams traveling all over the Earth during the week for competition. I had professors who were prepared to fail the student-athlete for missing class due to participation in University sponsored NCAA DI athletics competition. The Athletics-based Academic Support Advisor is going to work across the University within the guidelines of the rules (which they know and understand - and are changing all the time btw - yet they're required to know and understand) to find a reasonable solution so the student-athlete doesn't fail out of school for missing classes due to playing a sport which that same school recruited him/her to play (and are required to play to get the financial aid they signed up for). Just one of many examples. Academic-based counselors aren't going to advocate for the student-athlete in these scenarios because they don't report into the athletics department and guess who's going to suffer...you're student-athletes and then your athletics reputation. This is also a matter of institutional control and as an AD, I'll be damned if I'm going to be on the hook to ensure my athletics department complies with all rules and regulations when I've got a whole arm of my operation that's out of my control. That's a lot of exposure and frankly, I don't want to be an AD where I don't have that control. It just takes one rogue or ignorant academic counselor or tutor to destroy everything and that can happen whether it lives on the Academic side or the Athletics side but let's be serious - where is it going to get undivided attention and oversight?!? Based on experience, there's only one correct answer - Athletics. Why aren't these same "academics" requesting that the Athletics business affairs be managed by the University business office? Or, the NCAA compliance affairs be managed by the University Legal arm? Or, the Athletics fundraising handled exclusively by the University Advancement team? NCAA secondary violations and major infractions can easily occur in each of those areas, too, so why not? Umm, because that would also be very dumb and ultimately, because none of those functions are building an athletics only facility. I interned at a D-I university in the Athletic Academic Advising office and I can confirm this is 100%, without a doubt correct. Well said, CA. Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 12:31:11 PM  Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... Back to Top Ohio69 General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 2,992 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 12:39:29 PM  CA Bobcat wrote: Why aren't these same "academics" requesting that the Athletics business affairs be managed by the University business office? Or, the NCAA compliance affairs be managed by the University Legal arm? Or, the Athletics fundraising handled exclusively by the University Advancement team? Shhhhhh.... Don't give them any ideas. Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?..... Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,045 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 1:20:45 PM  I can see it now....football gameday, athletic dept has plans to use it for hospitality or other functions, but is overruled by academic administrators who wish to hold a conference at Sook on World Religions and Classical Languages. All joking aside, this proposal should at least be looked at...while athletics should keep a jaundiced eye on their enemies within the university who would shut down athletics if given the opportunity. Is the UNC reference a Trojan Horse or a legitimate point? Back to Top rpbobcat General User Member Since: 4/28/2006 Location: Rochelle Park, NJ Post Count: 3,504 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 2:27:06 PM  Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves. So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ? They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal. Back to Top 1stInConvo General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 39 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 3:04:09 PM  Guess Ridpath and his friends should read the NCAA's final report about UNC. Guess what, it wasn't the athletic department that created fake classes, it was the academic side. Based on my OU experiences, I'd worry more about the academic value and integrity of some of the faculty more than the athletic department. This is just a "land grab" to control more classroom space. For all of the likely strong points for OU as a university, this constant complaining by the faculty is one of, if not its weakest trait. I used to think that after I left, Ohio was just in a down time and would bounce back over the years from pettiness, jealousy, and diversion from what should be important. Items like this just have affirmed my belief, I am sorry to say, that it never has. Last Edited: 10/19/2017 3:04:57 PM by 1stInConvo Back to Top OhioStunter General User Member Since: 2/18/2005 Location: Chicago Post Count: 2,516 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 5:34:09 PM  Doesn't the academic side oftentimes require students to purchase the textbook -- whose author happens to be the professor of the class? Back to Top L.C. General User Member Since: 8/31/2005 Location: United States Post Count: 10,067 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 7:20:10 PM  I'd say that the UNC argument is a total diversion. Control over the tutoring program would have no bearing on that kind of incident. To prevent a UNC type incident they need control over curriculum and performance standards, and they already have that. “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 9:02:32 PM  rpbobcat wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves. So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ? They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal. Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise. Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,478 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 9:09:46 PM  GoCats105 wrote: 74 Cat wrote: According to an April 17, 2017 article in The Post, “…currently Student-athletes at OU use the 10,000 square-foot Joan and Wallace Phillips Center, in the third and fourth floors of Peden Tower, for academics. The facility accommodates about 440 students a year and includes 10 tutoring rooms and a 42-seat classroom...” Is this center being run/overseen by the “academic” side of the equation? If not, then their current interest or motivation in an athlete’s academic career is suspect from at least my viewpoint. I would assume no. Each or most FBS level athletic departments have their own separate Academic Advising employees. They may sometimes bring in tutors from the general population to help, though. No, the current facility and staff is all part of OHIO ICA, employees of OHIO University, but answer to the Athletic Director. The Compliance offices are with the Academic offices, ensuring extra compliance. OHIO Univeristy Athletics has an excellent record with graduation rates and NCAA compliance, that giving a voice to the anti-Athletics and the banned former NCAA compliance officer a voice is ridiculous Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,478 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 9:13:16 PM  Alan Swank wrote: rpbobcat wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves. So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ? They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal. Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise. That may be the poorest comparison in the history of BA. The mouth piece of this entire issue is a guy who can no longer find a job in athletics. The UNC issue is a total mute point to this issue at OHIO. Apples to Pawpaws. Back to Top Deciduous Forest Cat General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Ohio Post Count: 4,306 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/19/2017 10:37:48 PM  BillyTheCat wrote: Alan Swank wrote: rpbobcat wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves. So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ? They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal. Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise. That may be the poorest comparison in the history of BA. The mouth piece of this entire issue is a guy who can no longer find a job in athletics. The UNC issue is a total mute point to this issue at OHIO. Apples to Pawpaws. Then how can you hear it? Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 12:26:59 AM  L.C. wrote: I'd say that the UNC argument is a total diversion. Control over the tutoring program would have no bearing on that kind of incident. To prevent a UNC type incident they need control over curriculum and performance standards, and they already have that. This is a good point, and I hereby withdraw my original reaction to this proposal. Upon further review in the booth BTC was correct in his initial assessment. The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 12:43:20 AM  Alan Swank wrote: Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise. You are not only in the running for the BA Andy Rooney Memorial Curmudgeon Award, Alan, but with this post you have singlehandedly nailed down the BA Jefferson Davis False Analogy Award for 2017. Keep it up. You are on a roll! [Note: Jeff Davis once made an analogy between the Confederate Congress and the Confederation Congress.] The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top L.C. General User Member Since: 8/31/2005 Location: United States Post Count: 10,067 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 7:39:39 AM  Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... Leaving aside the issues of the Sook Center, I fail to see in what way this would be considered a "good article". It presents the positions of Ridpath, Lybarger, and Schwirian, and essentially treats them at the only possible view. It doesn't explore the issues themselves, nor what biases the protagonists might have. It doesn't even mention that there might be counterarguments, nor plausible reasons for rejecting the proposal, inviting the reader to interpret a rejection of the proposal as a win for athletics over academics, which I believe would not be what it means at all. It brings up the UNC situation without explaining what it was, or what happened, or how it might or might not be related to this situation, and thus leaves the false impression that it is somehow relevant, and that had UNC had a similar structure to that being proposed, they could have averted their problems. In the end, it seems to just be a one-sided "propaganda piece". For what it's worth, I'd feel the same if the article was written from the opposite perspective as well, solely devoted to ridiculing the proposal and those making it. For me a "good article" should explore the issues, research the motivations of those making the proposal, and then discuss how the proposal might affect the University, and the athletes. A good article would allow me to understand what special needs athletes have academically, and how their travel schedule and practice schedule affects their ability to also complete course work, and why they therefore need special study areas, counseling, guidance, and tutoring in the first place. It would then explore how they would be impacted by they two alternatives, control of the counseling by Academics, and control by the Athletic department. A complete article would also explore what controls Academics needs in order to assure whether athletes are actually getting an education, what controls they have now, and how this proposal would assist in that, if at all. This article does none of that. “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus Back to Top Sam bobcat General User Member Since: 7/14/2015 Post Count: 633 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 8:00:25 AM  L.C. wrote: Alan Swank wrote: Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore. https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles... Leaving aside the issues of the Sook Center, I fail to see in what way this would be considered a "good article". It presents the positions of Ridpath, Lybarger, and Schwirian, and essentially treats them at the only possible view. It doesn't explore the issues themselves, nor what biases the protagonists might have. It doesn't even mention that there might be counterarguments, nor plausible reasons for rejecting the proposal, inviting the reader to interpret a rejection of the proposal as a win for athletics over academics, which I believe would not be what it means at all. It brings up the UNC situation without explaining what it was, or what happened, or how it might or might not be related to this situation, and thus leaves the false impression that it is somehow relevant, and that had UNC had a similar structure to that being proposed, they could have averted their problems. In the end, it seems to just be a one-sided "propaganda piece". For what it's worth, I'd feel the same if the article was written from the opposite perspective as well, solely devoted to ridiculing the proposal and those making it. For me a "good article" should explore the issues, research the motivations of those making the proposal, and then discuss how the proposal might affect the University, and the athletes. A good article would allow me to understand what special needs athletes have academically, and how their travel schedule and practice schedule affects their ability to also complete course work, and why they therefore need special study areas, counseling, guidance, and tutoring in the first place. It would then explore how they would be impacted by they two alternatives, control of the counseling by Academics, and control by the Athletic department. A complete article would also explore what controls Academics needs in order to assure whether athletes are actually getting an education, what controls they have now, and how this proposal would assist in that, if at all. This article does none of that. I agree, someone test Alan Swank's urine please. Back to Top D.A. General User Member Since: 8/6/2010 Location: Georgetown, ME Post Count: 1,174 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 9:54:43 AM  I did the research several years ago and posted here on BA, and no longer care to document these things as I am tired of the nonsense": ICA does not fall under the "oversight" of shared governance, it is exclusively overseen/managed by the Trustees and President. So Ridpath and his chronies and pissing into the wind, unless of course the Trustees and Nellis change the present commitment to supporting ICA. The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats! And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's. "This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,624 Status: Offline     RE: Sook    Posted: 10/20/2017 1:40:42 PM  I did it the old fashioned way. I studied at the library. If I needed some help in a particular class, I would ask a cute young lady who I figured was smarter than me. That wasn't hard, as they were all smarter than me. But looking back, I did it mostly on my own and am better for the experience. Back to Top Showing Replies:   26 - 50  of 121 Posts Jump to Page:   < Previous    1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5    Next > View Other 'Ohio Football' Topics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               WHO'S ONLINE There are 261 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com 260 Guests 1 Registered User:   colobobcat66 There are no other users looking at this page.

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