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Topic: RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Topic: RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

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Robert Fox
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 11:01:53 AM

OU_Country wrote:

bobcat695 wrote:

If my son was a QB prospect, I would suggest he run somewhere else. And I'm a guy that blindly supports the team with perfect attendance and cash for 25+ years. Just this evening, I was approached by a parent of a very good prospect that asked if I could help introduce him to the OU football program. I like the kid too much to make that call. You can throw Izzy under the bus all you want, but I have not seen the progress at all. You quote stats from afar. I watch the games live. Ohio football is better than it was when I was a student. It's virtually impossible to not be better than Lichty. I'm not excited at all about the game next week, nor do I care about how many points WMU beats us by the week after that. Win a truly meaningful game and we'll talk. Until then, I live in a real world where I've never made a 6 hour drive home from Detrot happy.

A fan and alum of over a quarter century wouldn't introduce him to the OU Football Program? This is fascinating.

No. It's disturbing.

L.C.
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 12:35:09 PM

bobcat695 wrote:

...I know this is going to shock you LC, but my problem is with Solich, the CEO of the program. ...

That makes more sense than criticizing Izzy. This thread made me take a hard look at Izzy's record, and when I look at his record, he seems to be doing an outstanding job.

I would agree that the topic of this thread, the lack of QB development, made sense while Gdowski was still the QB coach. While he was the QB coach, QB recruiting was not good, and the recruited players did not progress much in most cases. Gdowski did get two good JUCO players, T3 and Boo, and he was lucky that TT stayed healthy for most of his 3 years. Everson took care of QB from 2005-6, and those three players took care of 2008-13. Other than that, the QB picture was kind of grim in terms of recruiting and development during his tenure. Many of the players he recruited saw the field very little, like Brandon Jones, Brian Sweeney, Kyle Snyder, and Ronnie Bell.

Under Izzy, we see a very different picture. The data above shows that the quarterbacks have actually progressed. As far as recruiting, no one seemed to have much confidence in his first recruit, Maxwell, but now that he's played, people feel differently. Then, last year there were no QB recruits, but that seemed to be a function that when the QBs Izzy offered did not accept, he did not send out any other offers, and was obviously determined that he wanted a top QB, or none, so he got none. With the two QBs he has verbals from for next fall, it appears that his insistence on high quality recruits is bearing fruit. If QBs continue to progress, and recruiting continues to improve, this topic will be moot in another year or so.

Now, getting back to your sentence that I quoted above, we can ask, if Izzy is doing a significantly better job than Gdwoski, and I think he is, why wasn't a change made earlier. We can ask the same about Johnson, who seems to be doing a much better job than Lightner with the offensive line, based on data I presented my my "rushing effectiveness" thread. Solich does seem to be reluctant to make changes, sometimes, with loyal assistants. That's a fault, but it's a two-edged sword, because it also seems to increase staff loyalty.

With regard to your comment that " Nebraska probably made the correct decision to wish him well in his future endeavors.", you have to look at the history there since his departure. With all their money, facilities, loyal fans, and history, they have had a lot of applicants for coaching positions over the years, and are on their third coach since he left. None of the replacements have met much less exceeded, the performance under Solich. I wonder if, now that they have seen the alternatives, Nebraska fans would agree with your statement? I suspect that if you polled them, opinions would be mixed. Out of curiousity, I looked it up, and the records of their recent coaches are:
Solich 58-19 .753
Callahan 27-22 .551
Pelini 67-27 .713
Riley 14-9 .609

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GoCats105
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 12:47:48 PM

You can't just look at coaching records when comparing Frank to those other guys at Nebraska. The game has completely changed since then. In fact, you don't really even need to look that far to see the differences. Nebraska isn't the same program it once was because A) they don't get the players they used to and B) the schemes are totally different compared to the glory days of Tom Osborne.

The year Frank coached Nebraska to the National Championship appearance (which was an abomination of epic proportions considering the Huskers didn't even win their division, let alone the Big 12, but that's a story for another day), they were absolutely torched by Miami in the Rose Bowl for the title. Nebraska was still stuck in the option era while Miami was putting its athletes on the edges with the passing game.

In some ways the Nebraska program is still stuck in the past and hasn't been able to get back to that level. It's not because of Frank. It's because the game has changed and each coach they've hired since then hasn't been a step far enough in the right direction. They're getting there, but I have yet to see a QB from Nebraska who is considered an elite passer.

Last Edited: 11/18/2016 12:49:08 PM by GoCats105

L.C.
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 2:19:10 PM

I can't debate with you the reasons why Nebraska hasn't been more successful because I don't really follow them. My point was just that replacing the coach didn't solve whatever problems they have had, and if anything, made the situation worse. For what it's worth, Riley may not be a better coach than Pelini, but certainly he's a better representative for the state.

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OhioStunter
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 2:41:10 PM

I'm going to offer another take on this. Out of all of the QB performances at Ohio -- the entire history of Ohio football -- 6 of the top 10 season highs for passing yards were by QBs under Solich.

I think that says something about the history of Ohio QBs, but still, QBs under Solich have turned in some of the best season-long performances in Ohio history.

It does seem unfair that almost every other MAC school has had a QB go on to the NFL, but not Ohio...

Bobcat1998
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 2:44:40 PM

bshot44 wrote:

finnOhio wrote:

I love OHIO, have traveled to many games, have indoctrinated my kids into the club. But, as I watch another year of middling QB play at OHIO, I wonder if my son was a star QB, would I want him here?

In the 12 seasons on Frank Solich, check out the QB development, or lack thereof.

2005--Austen Everson 105/220 1151 yds, 4 TD, 11 INT...freshman Brandon Jones gets little bit of action.

2006--Austen Everson again, similar numbers 137/253 1356 yds, 7 TD, 8 INT, Brad Bower, transfer from Illinois gets some action 41/72 426 yds, 1 TD, 7 INT...Jones redshirts, team makes bowl game, plays more games, Everson a definite leader.

2007--Brad Bowers becomes starter, not spectacular numbers: 127/232 1767 yds, 11 TD, 10 INT...Theo Scott (another transfer, JUCO) gets some action, goes 63/109 for 743 yds, 5 TD, 3 INT...still no development of either recruited QB Brandon Jones or Josh Febus.

2008--Boo Jackson (transfer) in 1st year has best OHIO QB year thus far under Frank, goes 185/306 2355 yds, 19 TD, 12 INT, Theo, in limited duty due to injury I believe, goes 29/44 247 yds, 1 TD, 2 INT...no Jones or Febus

2009--Roles reverse from previous year, Theo gets more action 199/344 2369 yds, 20 TD, 11 INT. Jackson, injured, goes 17/30 194 1 TD, 0 INT...freshman Tyler Tettleton does some mop up duty.

2010--Boo Jackson returns following injury, goes 149/245, 1897 yds, 18 TD, 17 INT, no other QBs really see action other than some minor Phil Bates action... Tettleton redshirts

2011--Tettleton, as a sophomore, becomes the first HS QB recruited by Frank to start a game. He puts together one of the best seasons ever by an OHIO Qb in his first year, going 265/413 3306 yds, 28 TD, 10 INT, also rushes for 658 yards. He's set to be a legend at OHIO.

2012--Another good year by Tettleton, maybe not as flashy as the year before, but still great. 228/367 2844 yds, 18 TD, only 4 INT, though his rushing prowess is scaled back significantly.

2013--TT is a senior. Here it is, the BIG YEAR....except, while the numbers are pretty darn good, it doesn't feel like a jump. He goes 230/371 2851 yds, 21 TD, 12 INT. Statistically, his worst year, and he all but stopped running the ball (24 yards total).

2014--Derrius Vick moves to top of QB ladder after a couple years in the system. Doesn't hold on to the top spot and turns in a mediocre at best year. 84/160 1156 yds, 8 TD, 4 INT. Walk-on JD Sprague goes 98/202, 1236 yds, 3 TD, 5 INT

2015--Two QBs return, Vick and Sprague. Vick goes 158/247 1809 yds, 10 TD, 6 INT, Sprague goes 63/115 917 yds, 7 TD, 3 INT.

2016--Windham, who feels like he's been in our system for decades, finally gets the nod as a senior. Despite having the ability to develop in the system, is demoted to backup for Maxwell.

So, when you look back at our starters, from Austen to Brad to Theo to Boo to Tyler to Vick and Sprague, can you really identify somebody who got better the longer they were in our system?

Austen's 2nd year was better than his first.

Brad never really put up any good numbers.

Theo really only had one year as a starter.

Boo was better year one than he was year three.

TT was better his first year as a starter than he was either of the other two years.

Vick never showed any growth and staff never seemed to be impressed.

Sprague was a stop-gap, tough as he was.

Windham, in his final year, couldn't maintain the starter role.

Then there are the 'highly recruited' names like Brandon Jones, Greg Windham, Joey Duckworth who never develop. Is that bad recruiting or is it poor development at the QB position? Really, Duckworth can't start over Maxwell, whose accuracy is questionable at best?

Would I want my son to grow into a QB at OHIO? Would Coach Burrow?

This is one of the most depressing things I've read in a while. Yikes. When it's spelled out, it's quite sad. Good post.

This is depressing. Kind of like that jersey for the Browns with all the QB names on it except this jersey would have "Futility" on it instead of Browns.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 3:19:55 PM

L.C.--Others doubtless will disagree, but I'm not sold that our quarterbacking potential is all that good.

The qb's we've had recently--I don't seek marked improvement, I don't see them having games in which we can say, in terms of passing, 'Wow, our qb really got it done, was really the main player out there today."

There was some of that with TT, of course. Can't much recall it since.

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bobcat695
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 3:52:33 PM

Robert Fox wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

bobcat695 wrote:

A fan and alum of over a quarter century wouldn't introduce him to the OU Football Program? This is fascinating.

No. It's disturbing.

I was being a bit sarcastic. He's not a QB prospect. The football program has become stagnant and I do not see any reason to believe it will change. Most of the fans are apparently happy. The few of us that believe a slightly higher level of success should have been attained already are in the minority. BTW, the kid's dad is an OU alum. If the general level of excitement was really high, that kid would've have been coming to Peden most Saturdays since Solich was hired when he was in kindergarten.

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GoCats105
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 4:09:16 PM

L.C. wrote:

I won't disagree with you there about Riley. Pelini is a helluva coach, he's just an a-hole and the fans hated him.

GoCats105
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 4:11:39 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

You kinda answered your own take with the second sentence. All of the passing records broken under Frank's watch says more about the futile history of the Ohio program and passing game more than it says about Ohio's ability to recruit great QBs.

Now, should Frank take credit for that? Absolutely. He saw the potential that Ohio had and nurtured it.

L.C.
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/18/2016 9:07:13 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Monroe, when Gdowski and Lightner left the program, and were replaced by Johnson and Isphording, I was skeptical and concerned, but tried to give the new coaches an open mind. I was concerned about Izzy because the recruiting class under him was so bad. I was concerned about Johnson because I read about the year he coached at West Virginia. In the end it comes down to evaluating what they have done for Ohio.

It takes awhile for a new coach to make an impact, and that is particularly true when the prior coach left the cupboard bare. The offensive line under Lightner never had any depth, and when he left, there wasn't much left. Johnson was forced to play a lot of young players, like McCray, Lowerey, and Preuhs. In the last couple years the lines have made huge progress, and keep getting better. As I've watched the progress, I have every reason to believe that the offensive lines will keep getting better and better over the next couple years as the Sophomores and Freshmen who are playing become upperclassmen.

Then, since this thread is about Quarterbacks, lets look at those. Gdowski left behind Vick, Sprague, Windham, and Duckworth. I'll not knock any of them, and you can form your own opinion about whether that is a "deep talent pool" or not, but I will say that, per the data I posted above, Vick, Windham, and Sprague have all improved under Izzy.

Now, getting back to your specific comments that the quarterbacks lately haven't been good enough, who are we going to blame - the one that recruited these four, or the one that coached them as they improved? What does the future look like? Well, let's make a different sort of comparison. Let's compare each of the above quarterbacks' stats during their first year where they really played:
Vick - Sophomore - 47% completions, 1 TD, 1 Int, 101 efficiency
Sprague - Junior - 49% completions, 3 Tds, 5 Int, 100 efficiency
Windham - Junior - 48% completions, 1 TD, 4 Int, 98 efficiency
Maxwell - Freshman - 56% completions, 8 TD, 4 Int, 136 efficiency

Note that each of the above did a big jump between their first and second year, Vick from 101 to 131, Sprague from 100 to 137, and Windham from 98 to 119. How much will Maxwell jump? Can he jump to the 150 range for the rest of his career? If so, he'll own the Ohio passing records. That is, of course, if one of the two highly touted recruits for fall doesn't take the job from him.

As a final thought, many have commented on the lack of progress that quarterbacks showed up Gdowski. Here is the progress in pass efficiency that various quarterbacks showed:
AE - 108 Sophomore, 88 Junior year, 102 Senior
Bower - 120 Freshman (Illinois), 92 Junior, 126 Senior
Scott - 125 Sophomore, 112 Junior, 129 Senior
Jackson - 138 Junior, 122 in 2009, 136 Senior
Tettleton - 149 Sophomore, 141 Junior, 139 Senior

Perhaps the recruiting issue wasn't "Solich's style of offense", or "Albin's play calling". Maybe it was much simpler, the fact that quarterbacks weren't getting better under Gdowski. Perhaps the reason recruiting has suddenly improved for 2017 is the reverse, that recruits can see that the quarterbacks are in fact getting better.

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OhioCatFan
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 12:09:26 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

Please when you quote these records cite per game stats. It is entirely unfair to compare a player who had 12, 13 or 14 game seasons with one who played a 9 or 10 game season without dividing the stat by the number of games played. I'm not sure, for instance, where Cleve would rank on a per game basis, but it would be a lot higher than on a total game basis. There are also others both before and after Cleve who are slighted by the singular use of total season stats.

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Bcat2
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 6:12:14 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Also, QBs become more effective when their OL protects & receivers are play makers.

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 10:11:36 AM

Exactly. If, L.C., as you say the line is better, then the quarterbacking should rise with it. Plus, in a throwing era, the throwing records get broken--that's a surprise?

You keep citing stats. I keep seeing average play on the field. Again, apart from TT, we haven't had a qb who led consistently with high quality play as a passer.

Stats, stats, stats all you want. Nothing says MAC title like a MAC title.

Here's a stat: I don't think that for years there's been a single post on this site that, based on play in a season, has suggested an OHIO quarterback as an All-MAC player.

And very few comments after a given game in which an OHIO quarterback was praised as a consistently good passer over even a few games.

L.C.
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 1:13:52 PM

To make my points more concisely:
1. Every quarterback Isphording has coached improved dramatically between their first and second years. (stat)
2. Vick, Sprague, and Windham struggled their first year, but were better after that, though none were all-MAC (observation)
3. Maxwell has struggled at times and played well at times. On the whole he, as a Freshman, is nearly on a par with where the other quarterback mentioned above were as Seniors. (opinion)
4. If Maxwell improves dramatically between his first and second years, as the others did, and if he remains healthy, he could become very good (logical projection)
5. At last from 2005 to 2017 Ohio has never gotten a recruit for quarterback who had many other offers (fact)
6. Ohio has two verbals from quarterbacks with multiple other offers (fact)

Between Maxwell and the two recruits coming in, it is my hope and belief that the situation at QB is changing for the better. The above are the reasons for that belief, though others may believe differently.

Last Edited: 11/19/2016 1:19:11 PM by L.C.

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 1:49:05 PM

I won't dispute anything about hopes, projections.

But I'm a great believer in only being able to spend the cash in one's pocket. Earned/achieved cash--not the cash that one will earn in later years.

This staff has produced (achieved...not future hopes) not very much in the way of qb's in its 12 years.

At some point (which has already well passed...past..by the way), enough is enough.

Heck, if we wait long enough, Hillary may run and win.

Bcat2
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/19/2016 4:07:04 PM

L.C. wrote:

As usual Monroe seems to believe he is onto some big important problem. Ohio recruits QBs to execute an offense which is designed to share the spotlight. Ohio regularly contends for the MACC, last year Ohio beat the West Division champs, Ohio's 82 wins since 2006 trails only NIU in the MAC. Again Ohio shares the spotlight to the extent few players will likely build the stats to be consensus All MAC. Just how I see it.

Last Edited: 11/19/2016 4:08:01 PM by Bcat2

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OhioStunter
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/20/2016 10:10:35 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

Very fair point, OCF. When you look at season passing efficiency, QBs under Solich have 8 of the top 10 performances.

Highest Passing Efficiency Season (min. 75 attempts)
1. 148.6 Tyler Tettleton 2011
2. 141.2 Tyler Tettleton 2012
3. 139.4 Bob Babbitt 1962
4. 138.8 Tyler Tettleton 2013
5. 137.8 Boo Jackson 2008
6. 136.6 JD Sprague 2015
7. 133.5 Derrius Vick 2015
8. 136.2 Boo Jackson 2010
9. 131.1 Cleve Bryant 1968
10. 130.9 Derrius Vick 2014

Most Yards Per Game Season (min. 5 games)

1. 237.0 Tyler Tettleton 2012
2. 235.9 Tyler Tettleton 2011
3. 228.1 Bruce Porter 1986
4. 219.3 Tyler Tettleton 2013
5. 215.1 Sammy Shon 1981
6. 209.9 Donny Harrison 1983
7. 196.2 Boo Jackson 2008
8. 186.9 Dennis Swearingen 1985
9. 180.7 Derrius Vick 2015
10. 173.7 Theo Scott 2009

JLO
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here? (NT)

Posted: 11/21/2016 8:51:44 AM

Last Edited: 3/14/2017 3:50:42 PM by JLO

allen
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 9:27:23 AM

Gage Moloney has eight offers, two from Eastern Carolina and Colorado State and Keszei had an offer from Southern Miss.
http://www.newslocker.com/en-us/region/fort-wayne/homeste... /

Last Edited: 11/21/2016 9:29:08 AM by allen

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L.C.
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 9:36:16 AM

JLO wrote:

How many offers do you consider to be "multiple"? Here's a fact...Duckworth had seven offers coming in.
I don't think either of the new recruits had that many. Also... Keszei suffered a season ending injury and missed his senior year of high school football. Sounds a lot like Duckworth. Maybe there's room on that shelf with Duckworth for another QB.
You also forgot the other QB on our roster...Haber. He's was a D2 commit (Ashland). Let's see just how much the QB coach can develop these guys.

You are right about Duckworth. That's what I get for posting from memory. I'll do some research and post some accurate information later.

Duckworth had a major setback due to his injury, and he hasn't seen much game action since his Junior year of high school. I'd love to see him in the mix, too, next year. Since the two incoming guys will be true Freshmen, I hope Maxwell, Duckworth, and Haber can have good seasons (and healthy ones), so the incoming guys can redshirt.

Last Edited: 11/21/2016 9:37:35 AM by L.C.

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Bcat2
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 10:04:59 AM

L.C. wrote:

JLO wrote:

A while back I looked at the Ohio QB recruits when some posters were pie eyed about other teams QBs. I found that Ohio with Windham and Duckworth really was competitive with other MAC schools in terms of recruiting high school QBs.

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allen
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 10:09:23 AM

Looking at tape and stats the two QB's coming in look like better QB's. Both QB's are pretty accurate and can run.

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 10:30:43 AM

I agree. Despite the meh quarterbacking that we see on the field over the course of a season again and again (save for a couple of TT years), we are killing it with our quarterback recruiting.

Every college that plays football is jealous of us.

It's embarrassing how many schools try to recruit away our coaches.

Some day, we're going to win a MAC title.

Just kidding on that last one.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Would you want your son QB to play here?

Posted: 11/21/2016 11:08:43 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

Thanks for doing the math, OS. I find these lists very interesting, with a few real surprises. For some reason, I can hardly remember Bruce Porter. I guess when you go 1-11, it's easy to forget that there were a few outstanding individual performances. I thought Cleve would have ranked a little higher in passing efficiency. I'm surprised that Babbitt ranked as high as he did. I remember him as good, but thought he was not as good as Cleve. I'm also surprised that TT was so clearly the top guy in both categories. I knew he'd rank high, but I didn't think he'd be so clearly dominate. These are meaningful comparisons in this list. Best comparative chart I've seen on BA in a long time. Great work!

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