Welcome Guest! Create an Account login email: password: remember me: BASKETBALL Latest News News Archive Schedule/Results Multi-Media Recruiting FOOTBALL Latest News News Archive Schedule/Results Multi-Media Recruiting MESSAGE BOARD Message Home - Ohio Basketball - Ohio Basketball Recruiting - The O Zone - Ohio Football - Ohio Football Recruiting - Ohio Volleyball - Ohio Baseball - Ohio Olympic Sports... - General OU Discussion... - Website Feedback... - Posting Policy Edit My Profile Private Messages Logout CHAT LINKS site searchwhere to watchcontact usabout usadvertise with ushelp Message Board BobcatAttack.com Message Board Ohio Football Topic:  RE: Bowl picture Topic:  RE: Bowl picture Author Message Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 7:40:23 PM  colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: bshot44 wrote: I think 6-6 Ohio gets in over 6-6 Buffalo. Even tho UB stomped us....TV ratings/$$$/fan travel are what bowls want. We check more of those boxes than UB Fan travel, when you look at how few OU fans have attended the last few bowls, fan travel is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Totally disagree. There were more Ohio fans at the St Pete bowl than any game since Detroit and maybe The Go Daddy bowl a few years back. A really nice turnout in that case for the "away" team. It's all relative I guess, but there were probably 10 times more than the New Orleans bowl. The number of tickets that OU sold to these bowls do not support your "facts." Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,952 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 8:10:40 PM  Pataskala wrote: L.C. wrote: Some local fans seem to think that even a 5-7 Nebraska will get a bowl invitation. I guess it's possible that even after all the 6-6 teams are invited they still don't have enough bowl teams, and that they will have to take a couple 5-7 teams. I can't ever recall seeing a 5-7 team invited to a bowl, though. It certainly looks likely that most, or all, of the 6-6 teams will get a bowl, but I want to see Ohio finish strong and not test that. There have been several teams with losing records invited to bowls, including SMU's 4-6 team in 1963: http://www.thesportsseer.com/2013/12/30/worst-college-foo... / As I recall in the '90s there was a bowl game between a 6-5 team and a 5-6 team which created part of the uproar that led to the requirement that teams be at least .500. I think involved Mizzou. I think we'll still be in at 6-6 but 7+ wins would help seal the deal. Going over your list today, 62 are bowl eligible and another 15 schools would be favored to make it playing against opponents with losing records to make 77. That would have everyone in a bowl game with 6 wins. There are going to be at-large openings in P5 conferences with 12 slots in a major bowl and only 6 tie-ins (5 P5,1 G5). That means the cut line for an at-large making a bowl is about 86 for Ohio. Ohio will get a bowl before Akron. If the opening is a CUSA vs. AAC bowl with the AAC side open Ohio will get it before a Sun Belt team. Having a win over Marshall who is 9-2 is going to help. Finishing with 7 wins will help. Finish with 8 and Ohio will be in one of the MAC's 6 bowl tie ins. I'd say it looks good even for 6 wins but with 93 teams mathematically alive its not a guarantee for Ohio. Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top colobobcat66 General User Member Since: 9/1/2006 Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO Post Count: 4,157 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 8:16:19 PM  Alan Swank wrote: colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: bshot44 wrote: I think 6-6 Ohio gets in over 6-6 Buffalo. Even tho UB stomped us....TV ratings/$$$/fan travel are what bowls want. We check more of those boxes than UB Fan travel, when you look at how few OU fans have attended the last few bowls, fan travel is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Totally disagree. There were more Ohio fans at the St Pete bowl than any game since Detroit and maybe The Go Daddy bowl a few years back. A really nice turnout in that case for the "away" team. It's all relative I guess, but there were probably 10 times more than the New Orleans bowl. The number of tickets that OU sold to these bowls do not support your "facts." My eyes tell me what I saw. Many local people did not buy their tickets from the Ohio site. We had a very respectable group at that game. Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,952 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 8:24:29 PM  Alan Swank wrote: colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: bshot44 wrote: I think 6-6 Ohio gets in over 6-6 Buffalo. Even tho UB stomped us....TV ratings/$$$/fan travel are what bowls want. We check more of those boxes than UB Fan travel, when you look at how few OU fans have attended the last few bowls, fan travel is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Totally disagree. There were more Ohio fans at the St Pete bowl than any game since Detroit and maybe The Go Daddy bowl a few years back. A really nice turnout in that case for the "away" team. It's all relative I guess, but there were probably 10 times more than the New Orleans bowl. The number of tickets that OU sold to these bowls do not support your "facts." There is a good amount of Ohio alumni in Florida so wouldn't be shocked if St. Pete drew well. The Independence Bowl had a ton of local support. It was hard to say how many Bobcat fans were there. Detroit had about twice as many as New Orleans. The New Orleans crowd felt like a Green & White club outing. A crowd of 15,000 in a 70,000 seat stadium with 85% of it Troy's. The Shreveport game had 40,000 with a lot of energy. Detroit had 30,000 but it was annoying (Herd) energy. Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top colobobcat66 General User Member Since: 9/1/2006 Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO Post Count: 4,157 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 8:30:50 PM  Alan Swank wrote: colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: bshot44 wrote: I think 6-6 Ohio gets in over 6-6 Buffalo. Even tho UB stomped us....TV ratings/$$$/fan travel are what bowls want. We check more of those boxes than UB Fan travel, when you look at how few OU fans have attended the last few bowls, fan travel is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Totally disagree. There were more Ohio fans at the St Pete bowl than any game since Detroit and maybe The Go Daddy bowl a few years back. A really nice turnout in that case for the "away" team. It's all relative I guess, but there were probably 10 times more than the New Orleans bowl. The number of tickets that OU sold to these bowls do not support your "facts." Please give the numbers that were sold. I forgot the official sold numbers. Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/15/2015 8:35:15 PM  colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: colobobcat66 wrote: Alan Swank wrote: bshot44 wrote: I think 6-6 Ohio gets in over 6-6 Buffalo. Even tho UB stomped us....TV ratings/$$$/fan travel are what bowls want. We check more of those boxes than UB Fan travel, when you look at how few OU fans have attended the last few bowls, fan travel is pretty irrelevant to the conversation. Totally disagree. There were more Ohio fans at the St Pete bowl than any game since Detroit and maybe The Go Daddy bowl a few years back. A really nice turnout in that case for the "away" team. It's all relative I guess, but there were probably 10 times more than the New Orleans bowl. The number of tickets that OU sold to these bowls do not support your "facts." My eyes tell me what I saw. Many local people did not buy their tickets from the Ohio site. We had a very respectable group at that game. Alan and I had this same discussion about the bowl in Mobile. He insisted on using the tickets sold through the OHIO ticket office as the major indication of actual OHIO fan attendance. I kept telling him that my group and many others had bought tickets through the bowl game itself. At that point, trying to order tickets online at OhioBobcats.com was like pulling teeth, so we just ordered them online directly from Mobile. I've done this a number of times in the past, including the last Penn State game. I've sometimes ordered away tickets via the ohiobobcats.comw, which on a good day actually worked. I believe I ordered Louisville and UK tickets through OU. This year for the Minnesota game I was pleasantly surprised to see that the ohiobobcats.com site had been greatly improved in the ticket ordering department and I ordered through them. As I recall my estimates of the OHIO attendance numbers in Mobile were at least twice as high as Alan's because he was so wedded to the Ohio ticket sales numbers. Perhaps, because of the improvements in the ordering process there may be a better correlation between these two numbers in the future. The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top Pataskala General User Member Since: 7/8/2010 Location: At least six feet away from anybody else Post Count: 9,152 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/17/2015 3:35:26 PM  And to add to the confusion, the APR for 5-7 teams comes into play: http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/120412/pure-c... We will get by. We will get by. We will get by. We will survive. Back to Top OhioCatFan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 14,016 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/17/2015 4:06:59 PM  From the article: "Of the teams that are not currently bowl eligible that can reach five-wins, here’s how they rank based on the 2013-14 APR data, the most recent available, which will be used by the NCAA: 985 -- Utah State (5-5), Nebraska (5-6) 983 -- Vanderbilt (4-6) 980 -- Boston College (3-7), Rutgers (3-7) 978 -- Georgia Tech (3-7) 977 -- Virginia Tech (5-5), Indiana (4-6), Washington (4-6) 976 -- Missouri (5-5), Kansas State (3-6) 975 -- San Jose State (4-6), South Carolina (3-7)" OHIO vs Nebraska . . . a possibility? The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA "It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right." Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org Back to Top 71 BOBCAT General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 1,854 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/18/2015 9:34:42 AM  Well, here we are @ 7-4 with one game remaining, and I might add playing very good football. We did what we needed to do, beat both Kent and BS, both with loosing records I might add. Never the less we needed to win these 2. We are now, IMHO, bowl bound. Winning next week @ NIU would only be icing on the cake, 8-4 after those 3 losses was seen by most as unlikely. Now it's a real possibility. Our kids are now confident and believing. Those other MAC teams that are sitting with 5 wins woke up this morning feeling the pressure to have to win out to at least be tied with Ohio in the win column. Good luck to them. By Sat. night we will know who was able to handle the pressure and who folded. GO BOBCATS Back to Top Casper71 General User Member Since: 12/1/2006 Post Count: 2,895 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/18/2015 2:31:13 PM  I think I see USAToday has 7 MAC teams in bowls now...left out right now is CMU (unless I missed them in reading all those Bowl games!)! Back to Top Victory General User Member Since: 3/10/2012 Post Count: 1,880 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/18/2015 2:39:31 PM  CMU will very probably be in a bowl when all is said and done. A win over either of Kent St. or EMU would probably be enough do it. Back to Top L.C. General User Member Since: 8/31/2005 Location: United States Post Count: 10,067 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/18/2015 3:59:32 PM  I think there will be eight MAC teams eligible, though someone might mess up and cut the number to seven. “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus Back to Top Pataskala General User Member Since: 7/8/2010 Location: At least six feet away from anybody else Post Count: 9,152 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/19/2015 12:21:11 PM  The MAC will have at least seven, and probably eight teams in bowls this year. I read somewhere that the MAC has a contract with the Quick Lane Bowl in Detroit to provide backup if either the ACC or B10 can't fulfill their commitment. If that happens I'd expect either WMU or CMU to show up there because they can pretty much guarantee butts in the seats. The five-win teams that are least likely to get in are UConn (they play Houston and Temps), Utah St (Nevada and BYU), Ariz St (Ariz and Cal), Mizzou (Tenn and Ark), FIU (WKU), Neb (Iowa) and maybe Illinois (Minn and Northwestern). The four-win teams that are most likely to get in are Indiana (Maryland and Purdue) and Rice (UTSA and Charlotte). Last Edited: 11/19/2015 12:34:55 PM by Pataskala We will get by. We will get by. We will get by. We will survive. Back to Top C Money General User Member Since: 8/28/2010 Post Count: 3,420 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/21/2015 7:53:09 PM  Kron's win over Buffalo today helps us. Even if they both win next week and we lose, we would have the head-to-head win over a Kron tem with the same record, and we would have a better overall record than 6-6 Buffalo. (I know record or head-to-head doesn't matter ultimately, but let's pretend it does to the extent the MAC offices has any sway with the bowl invites. We are a better draw than either of those teams anyway.) Assuming all eligible West teams get bids before us, we'd still be MAC team #6 with 6 MAC bids assured. The B1G should eat itself next week, with four 5-6 teams having to win to get eligible, and three of those (Nebraska, Illinois, and Minnesota) likely to be heavy underdogs. Assume the expected happens, and there will be only 8 eligible B1G teams. That should open up the Quick Lane Bowl for MAC team #7. Back to Top L.C. General User Member Since: 8/31/2005 Location: United States Post Count: 10,067 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/21/2015 11:51:10 PM  My prediction is that Ohio ends up MAC #4 and ends up with Christmas in Bermuda. “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus Back to Top Alan Swank General User Member Since: 12/11/2004 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 7,023 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/22/2015 10:14:30 AM  As of today, there are only 71 teams eligible for 80 spots and 14 teams who need a win to claim on of the other 9 spots. Everyone with a 6 and 6 record will get in this year - it's just a matter of where each team goes. Looks like we'll be dipping into the post season opportunity fund again this year. Back to Top Bcat2 General User Member Since: 7/6/2010 Post Count: 4,295 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/22/2015 12:27:30 PM  Alan Swank wrote: As of today, there are only 71 teams eligible for 80 spots and 14 teams who need a win to claim on of the other 9 spots. Everyone with a 6 and 6 record will get in this year - it's just a matter of where each team goes. Looks like we'll be dipping into the post season opportunity fund again this year. I expect to buy tickets for kids again, though, if L.C.'s prediction pans out not sure about the desire of Bermudan kids to attend a bowl game. Who knows might create some island fans of Ohio football. I suggested Tickets For Kids before the Independence Bowl. We went to the game and met some youth attending in donated seats. They were having a great time. This in spite of one board member's suggestion; "Nah. I'll spare 'em the depression of watching us try and play football." Glad a good number of fans continue to support the program. Last Edited: 11/22/2015 12:33:07 PM by Bcat2 "Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK Back to Top C Money General User Member Since: 8/28/2010 Post Count: 3,420 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/22/2015 2:06:18 PM  Alan Swank wrote: As of today, there are only 71 teams eligible for 80 spots and 14 teams who need a win to claim on of the other 9 spots. Everyone with a 6 and 6 record will get in this year - it's just a matter of where each team goes. Looks like we'll be dipping into the post season opportunity fund again this year. Yep. I count four teams likely to get eligible (Tulsa, VaTech, Indiana, and Buffalo) and four toss-ups (ECU, Kansas State, Kentucky, and ODU). Even if all of those teams make it, there's still one opening to fill. I have us as MAC #5, heading to Del Boca Vista on Festivus Eve. Back to Top Victory General User Member Since: 3/10/2012 Post Count: 1,880 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/22/2015 2:50:27 PM  1 Air Force 100.00% 2 Akron 100.00% 3 Alabama 100.00% 4 App State 100.00% 5 Arizona 100.00% 6 Arizona St 100.00% 7 Arkansas 100.00% 8 Arkansas St 100.00% 9 Auburn 100.00% 10 Baylor 100.00% 11 Boise State 100.00% 12 Bowling Grn 100.00% 13 BYU 100.00% 14 California 100.00% 15 Central Mich 100.00% 16 Cincinnati 100.00% 17 Clemson 100.00% 18 Colorado St 100.00% 19 Connecticut 100.00% 20 Duke 100.00% 21 Florida 100.00% 22 Florida St 100.00% 23 GA Southern 100.00% 24 Georgia 100.00% 25 Houston 100.00% 26 Iowa 100.00% 27 LA Tech 100.00% 28 Louisville 100.00% 29 LSU 100.00% 30 Marshall 100.00% 31 Memphis 100.00% 32 Miami (FL) 100.00% 33 Michigan 100.00% 34 Michigan St 100.00% 35 Middle Tenn 100.00% 36 Miss State 100.00% 37 Mississippi 100.00% 38 N Carolina 100.00% 39 N Illinois 100.00% 40 Navy 100.00% 41 NC State 100.00% 42 Nevada 100.00% 43 New Mexico 100.00% 44 Northwestern 100.00% 45 Notre Dame 100.00% 46 Ohio 100.00% 47 Ohio State 100.00% 48 Oklahoma 100.00% 49 Oklahoma St 100.00% 50 Oregon 100.00% 51 Penn State 100.00% 52 Pittsburgh 100.00% 53 S Florida 100.00% 54 S Mississippi 100.00% 55 San Diego St 100.00% 56 Stanford 100.00% 57 Temple 100.00% 58 Tennessee 100.00% 59 Texas A&M 100.00% 60 Texas Tech 100.00% 61 Toledo 100.00% 62 TX Christian 100.00% 63 UCLA 100.00% 64 USC 100.00% 65 Utah 100.00% 66 Utah State 100.00% 67 W Kentucky 100.00% 68 W Michigan 100.00% 69 W Virginia 100.00% 70 Wash State 100.00% 71 Wisconsin 100.00% 72 Buffalo 76.20% 73 Tulsa 74.00% 74 Washington 73.60% 75 VA Tech 68.20% 76 E Carolina 55.70% 77 Indiana 55.60% 78 Nebraska 53.10% 79 Illinois 40.00% 80 Old Dominion 37.90% 81 Kentucky 37.60% 82 Minnesota 31.40% 83 Kansas St 28.70% 84 San Jose St 19.10% 85 Missouri 18.90% 86 S Alabama 10.10% 87 LA Lafayette 3.10% 88 Texas 2.40% 89 Georgia State 2.20% 90 Army 0.00% 91 Ball State 0.00% 92 Boston Col 0.00% 93 Central FL 0.00% 94 Charlotte 0.00% 95 Colorado 0.00% 96 E Michigan 0.00% 97 Fla Atlantic 0.00% 98 Florida Intl 0.00% 99 Fresno St 0.00% 100 GA Tech 0.00% 101 Hawaii 0.00% 102 Idaho 0.00% 103 Iowa State 0.00% 104 Kansas 0.00% 105 Kent State 0.00% 106 LA Monroe 0.00% 107 Maryland 0.00% 108 Miami (OH) 0.00% 109 N Mex State 0.00% 110 North Texas 0.00% 111 Oregon St 0.00% 112 Purdue 0.00% 113 Rice 0.00% 114 Rutgers 0.00% 115 S Carolina 0.00% 116 S Methodist 0.00% 117 Syracuse 0.00% 118 Texas State 0.00% 119 Troy 0.00% 120 Tulane 0.00% 121 TX El Paso 0.00% 122 TX-San Ant 0.00% 123 U Mass 0.00% 124 UNLV 0.00% 125 Vanderbilt 0.00% 126 Virginia 0.00% 127 Wake Forest 0.00% 128 Wyoming 0.00% Adds up to 77.8 which is barely changed from last week Back to Top Campus Flow General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Alexandria, VA Post Count: 4,952 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 12:29:04 AM  L.C. wrote: My prediction is that Ohio ends up MAC #4 and ends up with Christmas in Bermuda. Ohio is now MAC #3 with 8 wins and a win over an 8-4 NIU team. The mobile game has the MAC champion. The other 5 games then are on the table. Boca is with an AAC opponent so I can see the cats striving for that one. Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended 2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round 2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl 2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086 Back to Top Mark Lembright '85 General User Member Since: 8/22/2010 Location: Highland Heights, OH Post Count: 2,447 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 10:45:53 AM  Uncle Wes wrote: L.C. wrote: My prediction is that Ohio ends up MAC #4 and ends up with Christmas in Bermuda. Ohio is now MAC #3 with 8 wins and a win over an 8-4 NIU team. The mobile game has the MAC champion. The other 5 games then are on the table. Boca is with an AAC opponent so I can see the cats striving for that one. Hmmm, our old friend Temple perhaps?? Back to Top MFRONE General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Sheffield Lake, OH Post Count: 383 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 10:58:17 AM  Mark Lembright '85 wrote: Uncle Wes wrote: L.C. wrote: My prediction is that Ohio ends up MAC #4 and ends up with Christmas in Bermuda. Ohio is now MAC #3 with 8 wins and a win over an 8-4 NIU team. The mobile game has the MAC champion. The other 5 games then are on the table. Boca is with an AAC opponent so I can see the cats striving for that one. Hmmm, our old friend Temple perhaps?? I don't want this bowl for this reason alone. Would rather play somebody we haven't played, not some team we use to play every year. Back to Top ou79 General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 644 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 11:25:51 AM  How about Detroit and see if we can get Nebraska. FS could lead his troops in a beat down of the Huskers and then retire, going out a winner and giving a little payback in the process. Relax everyone, I know it is never going to happen. Back to Top Pataskala General User Member Since: 7/8/2010 Location: At least six feet away from anybody else Post Count: 9,152 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 12:02:58 PM  A lot depends on where Toledo falls regarding an access bowl. If Toledo gets the access slot, all the MAC teams should move up a bowl. Right now they're the second G5 team in the CFP poll, behind Navy and ahead of Temps. If Toledo beats WMU, Navy loses to Houston and Temps loses to UConn or even has a tough time with them, Toledo could move into the lead next week. Then it might just be a matter of beating BG in the MACCG for Toledo to get the access bowl. But if Temps wins easily, the winner of the AACCG (Temps vs Navy/Houston) will likely get the nod. We will get by. We will get by. We will get by. We will survive. Back to Top Diamond Cat General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 808 Status: Offline     RE: Bowl picture    Posted: 11/25/2015 12:12:35 PM  No Temple for me. Boring team and school. Been there and punk'd them. Back to Top Showing Replies:   51 - 75  of 199 Posts Jump to Page:   < Previous    1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8    Next > View Other 'Ohio Football' Topics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               WHO'S ONLINE There are 241 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com 241 Guests 0 Registered Users There are no other users looking at this page.

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