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Ohio Football
Topic:  OHIO Talent

Topic:  OHIO Talent
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 12:42:49 PM 
Contrary to what some have said on this board:

“@JasonAmessenger: Solich feels Ohio has enough talent to compete, but has not played well/consistent. "We have enough athletes to win, no question about it."

No offense, but I think Frank has a better handle on this issue than the average BA poster including myself. Now you could say he's not telling the truth or he isn't as sharp as he used to be in assessing talent, but I see no reason to believe that either of those is true.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 12:49:24 PM 
Interesting. Question then becomes and Coach Solich leaves himself and his staff somewhat exposed here. Is the lack of consistent execution a function of the team's youth and lack of experience or is it because of coaching?
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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 3:05:59 PM 
Reminds me of some thoughts I've had while reading other threads recently (that I don't care to re-open).

How to be a college head football coach:

Spend years as an assistant and study under experienced, successful coaches,

Move your family every couple of years chasing the next great opportunity

Read hundreds of player evaluations and choose exactly those who give you the best chance of winning (and of matriculating)

Visit other coaches and camps to look for the next great innovation

Spend countless hours in observation at spring practice, fall practice, in-season practice and other team activities

Watch hour after hour of film of your recruits, your players, your opponents and other programs that do similar things, then watch more film

Meet with your assistants daily to evaluate players performance and potential

Meet with trainers and doctors to see who is fit to play and who isn’t

Track academic progress to see who is not doing their homework and losing eligibility

Install a police scanner to listen to real-time police calls to prevent off the field lapses

Develop a game plan that’s better than every other team you play, based on all of the above; do it 12 weeks in a row

OR:

Watch a couple of games on the internet,

Read this message board

Last Edited: 10/31/2014 3:06:17 PM by Bobcatbob

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 3:18:25 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Contrary to what some have said on this board:

“@JasonAmessenger: Solich feels Ohio has enough talent to compete, but has not played well/consistent. "We have enough athletes to win, no question about it."

No offense, but I think Frank has a better handle on this issue than the average BA poster including myself. Now you could say he's not telling the truth or he isn't as sharp as he used to be in assessing talent, but I see no reason to believe that either of those is true.


I say this as a Solich fan and as someone who knows he's not going anywhere and doesn't want him to go anywhere until he's good and ready, but c'mon OCF!

This is not a very convincing argument. What do you expect him to say? Is he going to slam his own players, staff and self by announcing that he has recruited poorly and is surrounded by inferior players?

The results on the field speak for themselves. Against all but the dregs of 1A, we have looked inferior across the board -- coaching, recruiting and overall talent.

I sincerely doubt he actually believes what he said.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 3:29:16 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Contrary to what some have said on this board:

“@JasonAmessenger: Solich feels Ohio has enough talent to compete, but has not played well/consistent. "We have enough athletes to win, no question about it."

No offense, but I think Frank has a better handle on this issue than the average BA poster including myself. Now you could say he's not telling the truth or he isn't as sharp as he used to be in assessing talent, but I see no reason to believe that either of those is true.


I say this as a Solich fan and as someone who knows he's not going anywhere and doesn't want him to go anywhere until he's good and ready, but c'mon OCF!

This is not a very convincing argument. What do you expect him to say? Is he going to slam his own players, staff and self by announcing that he has recruited poorly and is surrounded by inferior players?

The results on the field speak for themselves. Against all but the dregs of 1A, we have looked inferior across the board -- coaching, recruiting and overall talent.

I sincerely doubt he actually believes what he said.


Agreed.

I like Solich and considering where this program was at when he came in, I don't believe we are in a position to rip him. He built this thing.

With that said, the results do speak for themselves. We are losing and it hasn't been close loses where a dumb penalty or poorly executed play here or there has swung the game. We are getting blown out. You get blown out when you are the less talented team.

College football is ALL about recruiting. If you don't bring in talent, you get blown out. Simple.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 3:56:28 PM 
Guys, the proof is in the pudding or in sports in the results. Recruiting or not, talent or not, coaching or not, execution or not, preparation or not, whatever or whatever not. This program has not got it done the last 30 or so games like it did the 30 before. That is what has people in a tizzy.
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 4:54:41 PM 
Bobcatbob wrote:


OR:

Watch a couple of games on the internet,

Read this message board


You don't need to be a professional football coach or ex-player to assess talent. If you can't tell the difference between Mike Mitchell (in his Ohio days) vs. our current group of safeties then you either aren't paying very close attention, or you haven't watched much football in your life.

What is Frank going to say? That we don't have enough talent to win?

For Frank to admit that we don't have the talent would be an admission on his part that his staff screwed up in some way. Which he typically avoids. In Frank's world the issues with his program are solely based on the players failure to "execute" his staff's flawless game plan.

Last Edited: 10/31/2014 4:57:57 PM by Paul Graham

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 5:06:46 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
. . . You get blown out when you are the less talented team. . . .


Or, when you are the less experienced and younger team. This year's blowout losses may be next year's wins. Anybody who has watched college football for just a few seasons knows that last year's awful looking team can be next year's cinderella story. Happens all the time. Now, the real elite programs usually just reloaded (this year's exception is Michigan State in Ann Arbor ). And, the real dregs often stay the dregs for years on end, but the rest of college football has peaks and valleys. The kind of year we are suffering through now is not all that unusual in D1 world. And, please don't get caught up in that dumb crap about the last 22 plus games. Last year is just not part of the normal equation. If don't believe this, look closely, again, at the Solich presser from a few weeks ago when he was asked about last year's team. It doesn't take a mental giant to read between the lines and figure out in a general way what happened.

Now, Recovering Journalist, I agree that Frank's statement could be just a load of self-serving crap. However, objective evidence -- as L.C. has pointed out many times far better than I could -- seems to strongly indicate that our recruiting (2010 excluded) has gotten better with time. Therefore, a reasonable person would conclude that Frank was not doing a CYA job in answering that question about talent but simply stating what he believes to be true. Again, when it comes to such observations I think Frank's track record both here and at Nebraska warrants giving him the benefit of the doubt. I know that some of you vehemently disagree, and that's OK. What any of us say here will have zero influence on decisions made by Jim, Frank or Rod. So flame away, if it makes you feel good. BA can be good therapy for football fans of all stripes, myself included.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 6:40:29 PM 
To make any kind of argument that 1) coaching isn't involved in some way and that 2) our play reflects anything other than average (or much lower) coaching is to, as stated above, not be watching our games.

If roughly 30 games now doesn't deliver a bit of a message, then what's your number--38, 46, 53?


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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MonroeClassmate
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 8:44:34 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Contrary to what some have said on this board:

“@JasonAmessenger: Solich feels Ohio has enough talent to compete, but has not played well/consistent. "We have enough athletes to win, no question about it."

No offense, but I think Frank has a better handle on this issue than the average BA poster including myself. Now you could say he's not telling the truth or he isn't as sharp as he used to be in assessing talent, but I see no reason to believe that either of those is true.


OHIO Talent btw is what you see walking around campus....

All-conference awards are sometimes unfair but if a program isn't getting its share than talent on that team is trailing...it won't be long till they post the all-MAC teams.

OhioCatFan, what was the best year of all-MAC award winners under C.Solich and how will last and this years players rank comparatively? Recall too that this is not a robust year for the MAC in general and specifically the East so theoretically it should be a bit easier to walk away with an award.

Last Edited: 10/31/2014 9:09:28 PM by MonroeClassmate

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 10/31/2014 9:29:00 PM 
First, we're running the wrong offense.

We should be running two back, heavy sets. Dbacks and line backers in MAC are lightweight. Put the power on 'em. Passing comes from that. Gotta run to win. (I know that my main man bcat2 agrees 100% with me.) It's so obvious; two back, heavy set.

Didja see the side article in SI quoting Pettine? He rightly says that you have to be able to run to get tough yards and/or yards in bad weather--so might as well start with that.

This ain't rocket science.




Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 2:17:55 AM 
Bobcatbob wrote:
Reminds me of some thoughts I've had while reading other threads recently (that I don't care to re-open).

How to be a college head football coach:

Spend years as an assistant and study under experienced, successful coaches,

Move your family every couple of years chasing the next great opportunity

Read hundreds of player evaluations and choose exactly those who give you the best chance of winning (and of matriculating)

Visit other coaches and camps to look for the next great innovation

Spend countless hours in observation at spring practice, fall practice, in-season practice and other team activities

Watch hour after hour of film of your recruits, your players, your opponents and other programs that do similar things, then watch more film

Meet with your assistants daily to evaluate players performance and potential

Meet with trainers and doctors to see who is fit to play and who isn’t

Track academic progress to see who is not doing their homework and losing eligibility

Install a police scanner to listen to real-time police calls to prevent off the field lapses

Develop a game plan that’s better than every other team you play, based on all of the above; do it 12 weeks in a row

OR:

Watch a couple of games on the internet,

Read this message board



+1
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 8:36:13 AM 
Because I'm curious, I'm going to try to, this weekend if possible (but it may take longer), do an analysis of recruiting in the MAC over the last 10-12 years. I've been following MAC recruiting for awhile, and I've found that since the recruits for all teams mostly get minimum ratings, the actual recruiting rating from the services don't correlate well to the players performance.

The best indicator that I have found is the number of other FBS offers that a player has - the more he has, the more likely he is to be a player. It isn't foolproof, though, because the absolute best players in the MAC are normally players who had no other offers, because no one else saw him. Thus, Carrie, Brazill, Dri Acher for Kent, and Mack for Buffalo all had no other offers.

For most players, though, the numbers of offers does correlate to their ability. That isn't surprising because if 10 coaches look at a guy and 5 say "I want him", that's better than if 10 coaches look at him, and only 1 says "I want hi."

I don't have the time to match all the recruiting sources to try to get perfect data. Thus, for one player you may find that Rivals says he had offers from Kent and EMU, while Scout says he had offers from Kent and Miami, which would probably mean he had 3 offers, not two. Anyway, I don't have time to do that, so I will select one service, and use it, which won't be completely accurate, but shouldn't be biased. I'm going to use Rivals for older years, since they were pretty accurate until about 2011 or so, when they pretty much stopped caring about the MAC. For 2011 on, I'm not sure who I'll use yet.

I'll post the results when I'm done.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:08:50 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
. . . You get blown out when you are the less talented team. . . .


Or, when you are the less experienced and younger team.


Last year...


I've seen crazier things happen.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:21:11 AM 
I await your analysis, L.C. This appears to be a lot more objective approach than some of the seat-of-pants statements I've seen on here by many of our BA colleagues.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:30:25 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
. . . You get blown out when you are the less talented team. . . .


Or, when you are the less experienced and younger team.


Last year...


Have you not read all that's been said about last year? Multiple posts explain what happened to team morale. Listen to the video of Frank's comments a few weeks ago when asked about last year. He said it was his worst experience in coaching college football. Read between the lines, and I think you'll get the general picture. Locker room issue year followed by rebuilding year = not good and horribly frustrating for fans, myself included. However, when we still our emotions for a minute and look at this rationally, we can understand why we are where we are at the moment. I, for one, remain optimistic -- as should you TO [grin] -- that we will show marked improvement in these last three games.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:30:34 AM 
MonroeClassmate wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Contrary to what some have said on this board:

“@JasonAmessenger: Solich feels Ohio has enough talent to compete, but has not played well/consistent. "We have enough athletes to win, no question about it."

No offense, but I think Frank has a better handle on this issue than the average BA poster including myself. Now you could say he's not telling the truth or he isn't as sharp as he used to be in assessing talent, but I see no reason to believe that either of those is true.


OHIO Talent btw is what you see walking around campus....

All-conference awards are sometimes unfair but if a program isn't getting its share than talent on that team is trailing...it won't be long till they post the all-MAC teams.

OhioCatFan, what was the best year of all-MAC award winners under C.Solich and how will last and this years players rank comparatively? Recall too that this is not a robust year for the MAC in general and specifically the East so theoretically it should be a bit easier to walk away with an award.


Yes, all-conf awards are unfair. Mr. Ben Russell missed getting to play this season, he should have been. Mr. Blair Brown has shown flashes of All MAC talent, when healthy. Jordan Thompson was on his way to All MAC, Tremayne Scott had All MAC talent. Durrell Wood just needs a chance. All MAC is a list of top MAC talent that just happened to make it through healthy.


"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:36:41 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
I await your analysis, L.C. This appears to be a lot more objective approach than some of the seat-of-pants statements I've seen on here by many of our BA colleagues.

It should be objective and unbiased. I'm trying to think of potential flaws before I start, and here are a few I've come up with:
1. The relation is non-linear. A person with 10 offers is not five times as good as a person with 2 offers. I need to adjust for this. I think I will use 1 for a player with just an offer for the school he attends, 1.5 for a player with 2-3 offers, and 2 for players with 4 or more offers. I am debating whether I should count P5 offers for more than G5 offers, but I don't think I will.
2. I have no way of easily knowing who was a no-show (whether for academic reasons, or personal reasons) and who was not a no-show. Yes, I suppose I could analyze the roster for each team to determine that, but I don't have the time for that. As a result, I'm just going to treat it as if everyone on the recruiting list actually showed up, and presume that all schools have a few no-shows, and that while this assumption may lead to errors, it is a random error, not a biased error.
3. JUCO's, injuries, etc - Players who are recruited may never play, or they may only be on the team a couple years. I don't have a way of tracking this, short of analyzing each team's roster each year, which I don't have the time to do. Therefore, I'm just going to ignore this, and treat it as if all recruits are going to be around a few years. Again, this can lead to errors, but shouldn't bias the conclusions.

If anyone else has any suggestions as I work through the data, feel free to make them. It will take me awhile to work through all the data.

Last Edited: 11/1/2014 9:47:21 AM by L.C.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:36:53 AM 
And, what about Mr. Poling, Mr. Basham, Mr. Johnson and Mr. Bonestetter? Just to name a few that are having outstanding years.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 9:58:02 AM 
We are a fickle bunch, myself for sure included. There is some merit in what OCF says. Last year every single one of us thought PJ Fleck was an absolute goofball who would couldn't coach his way out of a box. We made fun of him and his program . The overwhelming consensus on this board last year was that WMU was a bad program.

Flash forward to this year. That very same WMU that we mocked last year has grown, matured and is within a missed extra point of being undefeated in the MAC. It is possible, as OCF says, that OUr losses this year turn into next year's wins. I'm not saying it will; I am saying its possible.

Monroe asked, what's the magic number? For me, how we do next year is pivotal. LC, whom we all greatly respect as a learned college football expert, says with our improved recruiting classes that Ohio should really be a major player in contending for a MACC next year and I agree. ASSUMING Ohio is healthy next year (a huge if), Ohio should be at least a 7-8 win team. If it's not, if being healthy and Ohio is only 6-6 or worse, then even I would have to think something is really amiss.

Last Edited: 11/1/2014 9:59:48 AM by Mark Lembright '85

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ytownbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 10:01:05 AM 
Our staff has to be careful about the mix of high risk "under the radar types" we sign and how many 2 star players with limited upside we sign yearly.
These seem to be the players that hold the key to our success.

If the under the radar guys don't pan out , we have guys on our roster that never play. If our 2 star guys never develop then that is another group that never contributes.

I don't want to mention names but if you look at players signed over the last few years that are no longer associated with our program, they fall into the two above categories.

Of course I am excluding injured and academic casualties.
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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 10:34:03 AM 
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:
We are a fickle bunch, myself for sure included. There is some merit in what OCF says. Last year every single one of us thought PJ Fleck was an absolute goofball who would couldn't coach his way out of a box. We made fun of him and his program . The overwhelming consensus on this board last year was that WMU was a bad program.

Flash forward to this year. That very same WMU that we mocked last year has grown, matured and is within a missed extra point of being undefeated in the MAC. It is possible, as OCF says, that OUr losses this year turn into next year's wins. I'm not saying it will; I am saying its possible.

Monroe asked, what's the magic number? For me, how we do next year is pivotal. LC, whom we all greatly respect as a learned college football expert, says with our improved recruiting classes that Ohio should really be a major player in contending for a MACC next year and I agree. ASSUMING Ohio is healthy next year (a huge if), Ohio should be at least a 7-8 win team. If it's not, if being healthy and Ohio is only 6-6 or worse, then even I would have to think something is really amiss.

I disagree that everybody thought WMU was bad. Their recruiting proved otherwise. Anyone who didn't think they would be a real team in a year or two was not paying attention.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 10:43:00 AM 
ytownbobcat wrote:
Our staff has to be careful about the mix of high risk "under the radar types" we sign and how many 2 star players with limited upside we sign yearly.....

The problem is that it is never that simple, and sometimes you just end up scratching your head. For example from the 2011 class, you have highly rated players like Ben Russell and Landon Smith, and players who were unrated like Jovon Johnson and Mike Lucas. You also have high rated players like Eric Price and Jacob Welter, and unrated players like Michael Curtis, all of whom are gone from the program.

Oh the whole, my general observation is that if you have a highly rated player, they are usually "safe", and they will usually be pretty good, whereas if you have an unrated player, they are more apt to be at one extreme or the other, either great, or a bust.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 11:11:37 AM 
Another odd thread where the internet world takes a quote and then interprets what was really meant. So fine I'll play. Solich says it's not talent. Which he would never say. Not to deflect blame. But to not throw his players under the bus. By saying it is execution is to blame the coaching. We have talent but are not veering the most out of it. Is that what he really feels? Probably not. He knows we don't have the talent others do. And that too falls on the coaches. But to say that shifts it to players as well. A good classy coach never says its about player ability. Yes everyone can Assess the talent now. Welcome to Monday morning QB 101. The job isn"t after the fact but in recruiting. That has been discussed in other threads. Most have taken sides. But most also feel the quality coming in is better than the recent past. As possibly reflected in the number of underclassmen playing/starting. Will the new better talent be enough? We'll see. But we will find out with frank as coach.

Of course the usual suspects decry the offensive approach and overall coaching. Whatever. Leave your credentials at the door. Just remember you need the players with the proper skill set to run a particular system. For example a power game often requires a good blocking back. One hasn't stood out. Also requires a power blocking line. Just having "bigginz" doesn't qualify. Power blocking is as much about quickness as it is weight. It also requires technique... which falls to coaching. I'll defer to those that really know line play to evaluate our roster accordingly. of course this too falls back to recruiting and talent as you recruit to your approach/scheme. If you want to see if frank is changing the offense. Look at recruiting not Saturdays. Again. I ll defer to those more in the know on that subject.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: OHIO Talent
   Posted: 11/1/2014 11:13:18 AM 
L.C. wrote:
ytownbobcat wrote:
Our staff has to be careful about the mix of high risk "under the radar types" we sign and how many 2 star players with limited upside we sign yearly.....

The problem is that it is never that simple, and sometimes you just end up scratching your head. For example from the 2011 class, you have highly rated players like Ben Russell and Landon Smith, and players who were unrated like Jovon Johnson and Mike Lucas. You also have high rated players like Eric Price and Jacob Welter, and unrated players like Michael Curtis, all of whom are gone from the program.

Oh the whole, my general observation is that if you have a highly rated player, they are usually "safe", and they will usually be pretty good, whereas if you have an unrated player, they are more apt to be at one extreme or the other, either great, or a bust.


L.C. When you use the offers reported by the services you are counting on their information which is suspect. The services can only report what is turned into them and their sources are the players, their families and perhaps their coaches. Their sources have an interest up until a decision is made then they probably move on. A high School coach would have a vested interest in stretching the truth. Have you ever seen a high school program kids are reported taller and heavier than they ever will be. I am saying offers are unreported while some interest may be reported as offers.


"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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