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Topic:  Penalties

Topic:  Penalties
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 7:12:12 PM 
Do teams which are penalized more lose more? It turns out, it depends on the type of penalty. From football outsiders we learn that teams that commit offensive penalties lose more often, particularly teams which commit false starts, while defensive penalties are not correlated to losing.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/FO-basics
football outsiders wrote:
Teams with more offensive penalties generally lose more games, but there is no correlation between defensive penalties and losses.

... One reason is that defensive penalties often represent good play, not bad. Cornerbacks who play tight coverage may be just on the edge of a penalty on most plays, only occasionally earning a flag. Defensive ends who get a good jump on rushing the passer will gladly trade an encroachment penalty or two for ten snaps where they get off the blocks a split-second before the linemen trying to block them.

...The penalty that correlates highest with losses is the false start, and the penalty that teams will have called most consistently from year to year is also the false start.


In fact, there is evidence that there is a positive correlation between defensive penalties and defensive performance. This study doesn't have the ability to separate defensive penalties from total penalties, so they used total penalties, and found that teams that were more penalized had better defense: http://tinyurl.com/ohkuyak

Deadspin found a similar thing, very little overall correlation between penalties and performance in the NFL: http://tinyurl.com/lbop2ng
deadspin wrote:
So what does this mean? This doesn't imply that penalties aren't bad for teams; individual penalties are clearly detrimental on both offense and defense. What it does imply, I think, is that the sort of teams that accumulate more penalties—teams you might call "aggressive" when they're winning—aren't necessarily bad teams, and the sort of teams that accumulate fewer penalties aren't necessarily good teams.

Last Edited: 10/18/2014 7:19:44 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 8:34:06 PM 
But, you know, Akron had us at our 13, then gave us 35 of the first 37 yds on the drive because of penalties (a 5 and two 15s). We scored a TD on that drive, which might not have happened without the penalties. We were in a hole and they helped us get out of it. Yes, penalties are part of the game. But when they come in clusters or are just plain stupid penalties (like throwing a punch) they can make the difference in a close game.

Last Edited: 10/18/2014 8:34:37 PM by Pataskala

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 8:41:51 PM 
As I posted in another thread, the point is not that teams should be careless, or undisciplined. The point is that teams that play aggressively sometimes get penalties, especially on defense.

Just to be clear, I didn't like the chop blocks at all, which could result in someone getting hurt. The pass interference calls didn't bother me; I want the DB's to contest catches, even though they may get flagged sometimes. I also didn't mind an occasional defender jumping offsides, trying to get anticipate the count, so long as they don't do it too often.

Last Edited: 10/18/2014 8:48:28 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 9:27:31 PM 
The usual stuff doesn't bother me so much, either. But it seems we've had more than our share of the stupid stuff the last couple games. Hitting people who are well out of bounds, dead-ball personal fouls, chop blocks, etc. Once today we had a false start penalty and a dead-ball chop block that cost us five plus half the distance. We had two chop blocks today and one or two last week. I can't remember that we've ever had back-to-back games under Solich with the number of penalties and penalty yardage like the last two.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 9:41:28 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
. . . I can't remember that we've ever had back-to-back games under Solich with the number of penalties and penalty yardage like the last two.


I think you're right here. I'm also concerned with the bonehead penalties. The late hit out of bounds seemed really stupid. I noticed that Frank had a animated talk with the perp on sidelines afterwards.

Speaking of penalties can anyone explain to me what the heck happened on the first half play where we made a first down amid three flags -- two on us and one on them? Somehow the one on them didn't count and the two on us moved us way back, but we were credited with first down because we made the line to gain before the penalties. It took the officials a long time to sort it out, and I don't think that the got it right. It left me shaking my head.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 10:14:04 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
...Speaking of penalties can anyone explain to me what the heck happened on the first half play where we made a first down amid three flags -- two on us and one on them? Somehow the one on them didn't count and the two on us moved us way back, but we were credited with first down because we made the line to gain before the penalties. It took the officials a long time to sort it out, and I don't think that the got it right. It left me shaking my head.

It was 3rd and 6, and Sprague ran for 25 yards. Even after taking off 15 yards for the penalty, it was still a 10 yards gain, which was enough for the first down.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 10:17:16 PM 
What happened on the play where the Kron player was ejected? It didn't look to me like there was an Ohio player close enough to him for it to have been a punch, but maybe the ref was just slow with the flag.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/18/2014 10:18:47 PM 
On departing Peden I turned on the car radio and listened to the post-game show. Coach Solich was very pleased with the win but not the "discipline" and "penalties."

After last week's 153 yards in penalties, I jotted down today's Bobcat penalties.

First Qtr
* #67 flagged for unsportsmanship conduct. 15 yards and negates much of a long run.
* Chop block. 15 yards. Drive killer.
* #40 flagged for personal foul on a punt return. 15 yards.

Second Qtr
* Offsides. 5 yards. Aided Akron's drive to a FG.
* #42 flagged for late hit out of bounds. 15 yards.
* #37 pass interference. 15 yards

Third Qtr
* #67 & #59 flagged for chop block. 15 yards
* Pass interference. 15 yards

Fourth Qtr
* Holding on kickoff return. 10 yards

120 yards

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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Pete Chouteau
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/19/2014 12:06:54 PM 
In my opinion, that litany surpasses the BG game's performance.

Sometimes, flags happen. I don't think that's been our case.
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/19/2014 1:30:15 PM 
Ohio is an undisciplined team. The penalties the last few weeks are maddening to watch. Lately, the Bobcats have been real badasses after the whistle blows.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/19/2014 6:25:20 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
Ohio is an undisciplined team. The penalties the last few weeks are maddening to watch. Lately, the Bobcats have been real badasses after the whistle blows.


^ This

Has been a problem

No two ways about it

RS Bobcat

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bobcat2nc
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/19/2014 9:38:36 PM 
Maybe it is because the Bobcats are the only team I have watched or listened to every week for 15 or so years but it seems like many personal fouls have come after long gains on 3rd downs over the years. Maybe it happens to other teams too but I only remember what seems like a lot of scores right before the end of the first half due to extended drives

Probably just feels that way though.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/19/2014 9:50:35 PM 
I was sitting down on the field, and from the sound of the jawing going on and the look of some of the penalties, it was a dirty and chippy game on both sides. There was nastiness between the two teams that exceeded anything I can remember seeing at Peden. It doesn't excuse the stupid penalties, but it might help explain them.
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 8:23:02 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
I was sitting down on the field, and from the sound of the jawing going on and the look of some of the penalties, it was a dirty and chippy game on both sides. There was nastiness between the two teams that exceeded anything I can remember seeing at Peden. It doesn't excuse the stupid penalties, but it might help explain them.


I assume after the BG game Akron knew it could get some easy penalties on our guys by talking smack. I expect the same from all our opponents the rest of the way.

I saw one of the chop blocks. It was not a mistake. Pretty brutal.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Casper71
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 12:59:02 PM 
I noticed the chop block calls too. In my opinion, it is a classless play and I am wondering why we have had a few this year. Don't remember having any in the past. At any rate, I hope they clean this up because it is one of the most brutal forms of contact in football and has no place on the field.
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 1:15:34 PM 
It looked pretty bad on TV.

The Wells play was pretty bad too, but admittedly it was nice to see some swagger and ferocity from the defense.
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Bobcat Grad 86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 2:48:07 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
I was sitting down on the field, and from the sound of the jawing going on and the look of some of the penalties, it was a dirty and chippy game on both sides. There was nastiness between the two teams that exceeded anything I can remember seeing at Peden. It doesn't excuse the stupid penalties, but it might help explain them.


Reminds me of the confrontation between the Marching 110 Alumni members who mixed it up with the Miami football team in 1992.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jGD-VrDIfo
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 3:13:04 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
I noticed the chop block calls too. In my opinion, it is a classless play and I am wondering why we have had a few this year. Don't remember having any in the past. At any rate, I hope they clean this up because it is one of the most brutal forms of contact in football and has no place on the field.


We had chop block calls all the time with Grobe. In most of these cases he claimed that it was a legal block and that the officials got it wrong. He said that there was one type of legal block used frequently in an option offense that was close to a chop block but really wasn't. I'm not vouching for the accuracy of what Grobe said, I'm just passing on what he said at the time.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 3:31:15 PM 
I'm told it is a sometimes accidental result of the zone blocking system, where each lineman reads who he is supposed to block independently, and two linemen read the situation differently. Hopefully they get it cleared up so it doesn't happen again. Fortunately no one has been hurt on the three calls, but they are also drive killers.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 3:33:25 PM 
Casper71 wrote:
I noticed the chop block calls too. In my opinion, it is a classless play and I am wondering why we have had a few this year. Don't remember having any in the past. At any rate, I hope they clean this up because it is one of the most brutal forms of contact in football and has no place on the field.


Agreed, and while both teams were dirty, I'd say we were dirtier. I didn't blame Zippy for being angry over the chop blocks, especially the two-man job that sent their player off injured.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 3:43:36 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Agreed, and while both teams were dirty, I'd say we were dirtier. I didn't blame Zippy for being angry over the chop blocks, especially the two-man job that sent their player off injured.

A chop block is always a two-man job, with one blocking high, and the other blocking low. I didn't see the injury. That's why they are illegal, and should be; they often result in injuries.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 3:45:06 PM 
In terms of "dirtiest", I think the 3 steps out of bounds late hit sealed that distinction for us.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 4:18:57 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Agreed, and while both teams were dirty, I'd say we were dirtier. I didn't blame Zippy for being angry over the chop blocks, especially the two-man job that sent their player off injured.

A chop block is always a two-man job, with one blocking high, and the other blocking low. I didn't see the injury. That's why they are illegal, and should be; they often result in injuries.


Yes, high-low is the key. Double-team blocks are legal if both blockers hit above the waist.

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 4:40:11 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Agreed, and while both teams were dirty, I'd say we were dirtier. I didn't blame Zippy for being angry over the chop blocks, especially the two-man job that sent their player off injured.

A chop block is always a two-man job, with one blocking high, and the other blocking low. I didn't see the injury. That's why they are illegal, and should be; they often result in injuries.


Yes, high-low is the key. Double-team blocks are legal if both blockers hit above the waist.


Or if both engage low, no?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Penalties
   Posted: 10/20/2014 5:32:19 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Agreed, and while both teams were dirty, I'd say we were dirtier. I didn't blame Zippy for being angry over the chop blocks, especially the two-man job that sent their player off injured.

A chop block is always a two-man job, with one blocking high, and the other blocking low. I didn't see the injury. That's why they are illegal, and should be; they often result in injuries.


Yes, high-low is the key. Double-team blocks are legal if both blockers hit above the waist.


Or if both engage low, no?



Correct! Has to be high low.
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