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Topic: RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Topic: RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 11:38:54 AM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

I would say of all of the kids at my high school that went to OSU maybe a little more than half got onto the main campus. I don't think OSU is trying to do this to boost numbers I just think they don't have nearly as much housing on campus as they'd like. If you walk around in Columbus construction on resident halls is going on everywhere.

I absolutely think they care about those numbers, just like any self-respecting university should. Those numbers translate into public reputation, US News rankings (which regardless of what you think of them are important branding for any university), fundraising, faculty recruitment (which leads to research funding) and so on. I think their dorm building has more to do with the requirement that students live in campus for two years than making room for their transfer students to come in as freshman.

cbarber357
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Member Since: 9/9/2012
Location: Pickerington, OH
Post Count: 744

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 11:58:27 AM

Here's what matter, Ohio's enrollment is up, while Ohio State and most other schools in state are going down. I know a few people from high school who went to Kent State and OSU who are coming to Ohio next year instead. Most people I know who go to Ohio State end up back home at a regional campus or they transfer out to UC or OU

The Situation
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 957

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 3:49:54 PM

OUPride wrote:

You keep playing fast and loose with numbers the way that you accuse Ohio State of doing. It's not 3,000 transfers; it's 2500. And the percentage is not 30%. Last year, they had 2500 transfers and 7000 freshman. That's 2500 out of 9500, or 26%. If you assume an average 5 years to graduation, that means that around 35,000 students out of 44,000 came in as freshman, or 20% transfers. The actual number is probably somewhere between the two.

Listen bro,

I was ball-parking numbers (as previously stated). But just to show you personally that I was quite reasonably in the ballpark, I've attached my quick Excel calculation. (Source: enrollmentservices.osu.edu/report.pdf)

There are additional minor assumptions to consider that favor both my argument and yours, let's call those a wash.

Ohio State's misrepresentation is in fact a huge deal.

When a mom, dad, student, teacher, reporter, investor, hiring manager, sits in front of a computer screen and sees 38% of freshman at Ohio State have an ACT score of 30+ they are likely impressed. I believe the typical person will take the number at face value and think, "Wow, that school is huge! They have like 44,000 students. That means like, um, over 16,000 students their got a 30 or more on their ACT. That's more students than a lot of schools have all together! That's incredible!"

As shown below, I don't believe they have 16,796 students right now in the general undergraduate population who got ACT scores of 30+. I believe the average person quite easily, and quite reasonably, could get that impression. My estimate on the 30+ number is less than 10,000 students (a reduction of 74%! compared to the implied value by Ohio State).

There are people on the market to hire, or award research dollars, or write favorable articles, or rank universities that think Ohio State has a lot more brain power than the student body actually does.

If OHIO withheld 30% of their undergrads, as a result boosting the 30+ ACT population from 8% to 11%, we're only talking about 600 students that don't exist. Ohio State does withhold nearly 30% of their undergrads and as a result they create the perception that over 7,000 additional undergrads got a 30+ on their ACT.

Keep in mind here that a 30 or more on your ACT means you're in the 95th Percentile of standardized test scores. If you're looking for indicators for potential talent, or intelligence, that's a big deal.

Last Edited: 4/23/2014 3:52:37 PM by The Situation

Campus Flow
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,952

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 8:50:40 PM

I will start by saying I have the numbers. The smoking gun that invalidates the OUPride strategy of targeting the 27 ACT scoring rejects of Ohio State. The strategy won't work because they don't exist which I can prove. Ohio State's numbers are partially so good because they place emphasis on the ACT score first and foremost where at Ohio the priority is more on GPA. To make things interesting I will show you the stats from my 1994 Barron's College guide to show you where things were 20 years ago. Then in another post I'll show you where the schools are today.

Miami Universtiy
ACT Avg: 38% (24-26)
Applied 9,239
Accepted 7,788
Enrolled 3,351
Status: Very Competitive

Ohio University
ACT Avg: 29% (24-26)
Applied 11,457
Accepted 8,374
Enrolled 3,271
Status: Competitive

University of Cincinnati
ACT Avg: 28% (24-26)
Applied 6,855
Accepted 5,553
Enrolled 2,408
Status: Competitive

Bowling Green State University
ACT Avg: 21% (24-26)
Applied 9,251
Accepted 7,333
Enrolled 3,076
Status: Competitive

Ohio State University
ACT Avg: 21% (24-26)
Applied 15,076
Accepted 12,860
Enrolled 6,468
Status: Less Competitive

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,952

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 9:18:10 PM

I found a website that has actual application data straight from university sources. It shows what the GPA's by each quartile are not simply the median ACT score which makes Ohio State look great. Some schools don't report the bottom quartile but I found GPA's of accepted students in the data set on the website to supplement those numbers. The most important number from this thread is that that OSU 25% quartile of GPA is 2.00. Nobody that Ohio would accept is being turned away from OSU because Ohio's 25% quartile is 2.70. Also OU's student profile is much closer to Miami's than some think and the gap is mostly due to a larger freshman class by 1,000 students in 2014. Data is from 2011-12 but it should be pretty accurate.

www.parchment.com/c/college/college-964-Ohio-University.html

Miami University

75% Percentile GPA 3.75
25% Percentile GPA 2.86

University of Cincinnati

75% Percentile GPA 3.70

25% Percentile GPA 2.70

Ohio University

75% Percentile GPA 3.59

25% Percentile GPA 2.70

Bowling Green

75% Percentile GPA 3.30

25% Percentile GPA 2.20

Ohio State University

75% Percentile GPA 3.85

25% Percentile GPA 2.00

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 9:41:51 PM

What Ohio State has become is a back up school for other Big Ten schools. Students who can't get into Illinois or Penn State are throwing an application OSU's way while passing over Miami and Ohio. Ohio needs more visibility out of state particularly better marketing that targets different sectors of the country. The Ohio Promise campaign works in Appalachia but not in New England where the expectation is prestige. The marketing mix has to be right. The school has a lot more to offer than a lot of tiny schools in the Northeast in small towns flooded with 30 ACT applications. They are unaware of the value of Ohio University. It has to be marketed more like a private school out of state which is what Miami is doing as part of their mix. Sell athletics as a charter member of the Mid-American Conference since 1946 not 5 Straight Bowls/Sweet 16 hyper excitement. The majority of the students Ohio wants to attract to improve its profile don't want big athletics. A student would be much better off with a name like OHIO on the resume than Bucknell or Marist because at worst you'll get confused with Ohio State, a Big Ten school with a 3 Billion dollar endowment. Colleges within Ohio (Scrips, Russ, Patton) are highly respected by people who are familiar.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,707

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 10:09:42 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

What Ohio State has become is a back up school for other Big Ten schools. Students who can't get into Illinois or Penn State are throwing an application OSU's way while passing over Miami and Ohio. Ohio needs more visibility out of state particularly better marketing that targets different sectors of the country. The Ohio Promise campaign works in Appalachia but not in New England where the expectation is prestige. The marketing mix has to be right. The school has a lot more to offer than a lot of tiny schools in the Northeast in small towns flooded with 30 ACT applications. They are unaware of the value of Ohio University. It has to be marketed more like a private school out of state which is what Miami is doing as part of their mix. Sell athletics as a charter member of the Mid-American Conference since 1946 not 5 Straight Bowls/Sweet 16 hyper excitement. The majority of the students Ohio wants to attract to improve its profile don't want big athletics. A student would be much better off with a name like OHIO on the resume than Bucknell or Marist because at worst you'll get confused with Ohio State, a Big Ten school with a 3 Billion dollar endowment. Colleges within Ohio (Scrips, Russ, Patton) are highly respected by people who are familiar.

Re marketing Ohio in New England. How about including this factoid? Ohio was chartered in 1787 as American Western University as part of the Northwest Ordinance in the Bunch of Grapes Tavern in Boston.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 11:22:56 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

. . . .OCF - post a review of the recent War of North Aggression ball here in Athens and perhaps they'll send you a check too.

You apparently haven't seen the new display at the University Archives in Alden Library. You really need to be sent to the Cump Sherman Yankee re-education camp!

Surprised Alan hasn't had a retort on this yet. When Doug McCabe told me he was putting up this display, I thought that he was joking. I had occasion recently to visit the Archives, and there it was. Actually, it's factually accurate if you know how the war started.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

C Money
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Member Since: 8/28/2010
Post Count: 3,420

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 11:35:06 PM

I'd be curious to know the breakdown and academic profile of undergraduate international students for each of those schools, if that's possible to track. I had a conversation with some administrators at a different university a few months ago, and they mentioned that their university was beginning to target international students as the major component of increased enrollment, because (a) you can charge international students more, and (b) foreign governments will gladly pay cash to have their young people study at American universities.

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/23/2014 11:49:28 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

. . . .OCF - post a review of the recent War of North Aggression ball here in Athens and perhaps they'll send you a check too.

You apparently haven't seen the new display at the University Archives in Alden Library. You really need to be sent to the Cump Sherman Yankee re-education camp!

Can't believe that Alan does have a retort for this yet. When Doug McCabe told me he was putting this up, I thought he was kidding, but then I visited the Archives last week, and there it was. It's actually accurate if you know how the war actually started. Remember Ft. Sumter!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

JSF
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Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,341

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/24/2014 12:06:07 AM

It's not factually accurate if you don't know how the war started?

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 611

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/24/2014 12:26:50 AM

OUPride wrote:

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

I would say of all of the kids at my high school that went to OSU maybe a little more than half got onto the main campus. I don't think OSU is trying to do this to boost numbers I just think they don't have nearly as much housing on campus as they'd like. If you walk around in Columbus construction on resident halls is going on everywhere.

I absolutely think they care about those numbers, just like any self-respecting university should. Those numbers translate into public reputation, US News rankings (which regardless of what you think of them are important branding for any university), fundraising, faculty recruitment (which leads to research funding) and so on. I think their dorm building has more to do with the requirement that students live in campus for two years than making room for their transfer students to come in as freshman.

I'm not saying they don't care about the numbers I'm just saying they aren't trying to boost them through branch campuses. Or at least that's not completely their objective at them. These kids who go to the branch campuses don't go there for higher academics they could later get at the main campus. They could easily go to OU or Cincy or Miami for that. They go there because they want to be a buckeye. They want to be associated with Ohio state sports and be able to go OH-IO because that's what they grew up loving. Going on a branch is so risky because if you don't get onto main you're stuck there and are bored to death. But people who go there are ok with that HUGE risk because they'll do anything to "be a buckeye"

Edit: and it makes me sick

Last Edited: 4/24/2014 12:27:17 AM by TheBobcatBandit

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/24/2014 12:27:37 AM

JSF wrote:

It's not factually accurate if you don't know how the war started?

Hey man, ain't my truth just as good as yours?

This is the age of relativity. (Pun intended)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

Status: Offline

RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/24/2014 1:25:26 PM

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

OUPride wrote:

[QUOTE=TheBobcatBandit]

I'm not saying they don't care about the numbers I'm just saying they aren't trying to boost them through branch campuses. Or at least that's not completely their objective at them. These kids who go to the branch campuses don't go there for higher academics they could later get at the main campus. They could easily go to OU or Cincy or Miami for that. They go there because they want to be a buckeye. They want to be associated with Ohio state sports and be able to go OH-IO because that's what they grew up loving. Going on a branch is so risky because if you don't get onto main you're stuck there and are bored to death. But people who go there are ok with that HUGE risk because they'll do anything to "be a buckeye"

Edit: and it makes me sick

And this is the issue that I feel is important as it relates to OHIO, not attempting to discern exactly how competitive OSU is or what their numbers might have been like before this Fall's freshman class was even born.

How does OHIO recruit these kids better? I agree that a portion of this pool are lost causes, but I do think there is a real potential for OHIO to do a better job of recruiting these kids and raising our admissions profile in the process. That, to me is the issue we should be talking about.

The Situation
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Member Since: 7/12/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 957

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RE: Ohio applications continue to rise

Posted: 4/25/2014 10:35:27 AM

OUPride wrote:

And this is the issue that I feel is important as it relates to OHIO, not attempting to discern exactly how competitive OSU is or what their numbers might have been like before this Fall's freshman class was even born.

How does OHIO recruit these kids better? I agree that a portion of this pool are lost causes, but I do think there is a real potential for OHIO to do a better job of recruiting these kids and raising our admissions profile in the process. That, to me is the issue we should be talking about.

We are recruiting these kids better; OUr improving year over year freshman metrics support that (despite your continuing dismissals of your own favorite metric).

A more prudent question would be:

How does OHIO recruit these kids at an even faster rate than we are currently?

Answer: You either increase the perceived value of OUr product to these specific kids. Or you decrease the perceived value of Ohio State's product to these specific kids.

A simple division of "these kids" would be:

Academics first
Athletics first

To increase OUr value academically:

Hire more professors that have a broader national presence either through publications, elite- level research, a track record of main stream media exposure, or just incentivize recruitment of our students by private industry either as interns or new college hires, that kind of stuff.

To increase OUR value athletically:

Win. Win everything. Every battle.

To decrease Ohio State's value academically:

Call them out. Advertise specifically what we do better than OSU. Quantify what ever that may be (J-school ranking, ceramics program ranking, research royalties, student happiness, personal safety, campus beauty, percentage of students that start as incoming freshman and go through graduation, whatever). Literally go out there, on TV, on radio, on billboards, and specifically say we do "this" better than Ohio State. If you care about "this", come to OHIO. Ask for the sale.

To decrease Ohio State's value athletically:

Call them out. Go to the newspapers, the TV stations, the billboards and say Ohio State won't play us in Athens because they're scared. They're a house of cards. And then, beat them.

In summary:

We can recruit "these kids" at a faster rate than we are currently. But do not dismiss the progress we've made so far. In order to attract these kids at a faster rate, you're going to have to spend money at a faster rate, or you're going to have to grow a pair and look your opponent right in the eye and challenge him to a duel.

P.S.

You didn't have to call out my estimate of OSU's transfer rate in an attempt to de-value my statements. But after I vetted my estimate, an acknowledgement of your error was merited.

Last Edited: 4/25/2014 10:47:18 AM by The Situation

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