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Ohio Basketball Recruiting

Topic: Recruiting "over" players

Topic: Recruiting "over" players

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Jeff McKinney
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Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 4:00:52 PM

There's more to a long term recruiting strategy than sitting at a computer, finding the statistically most impressive players, then doing whatever it takes to sign them.

One of the main strategies is to build recruiting pipelines into certain cities, regions, schools.

Recruiting "over" players isn't a good way to do this. For example, I'm not sure that recruiting a "big" who will be our most important inside player next year sends the right message to Doug Taylor. Doug, we're giving up on ya.

We are continuing to build a recruiting pipeline into Columbus and schools like Northland. Recruiting "over" players we get from there could shake the confidence of those high school coaches, AAU coaches ,and parents when we come calling in the future.

If a player is a complete washout, I could understand recruiting over him. That's not the case with Doug. Still has a good upside for improvement. So why throw him and Northland under the bus to bring in someone who is an unknown from God knows where?

This is a reason why a signing like Mickel could be a really good fit for Ohio. A tough guy who will help us inside without recruiting "over" existing players or incoming freshmen. We recruited Gareri and Vander Plas because we have confidence they can do the job. Why send them a conflicting message?

Still shaking my head over the vote of no confidence being shown toward these incoming freshmen from some posters on here. But some of these same folks said Carter wasn't really any more than a scrub at the Div I level.

Would appreciate any feedback or criticism of what I'm saying here.

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 4:10:06 PM

When I look at recruiting, I look at first replacing the talent that we lost and second, if we did not win, try to find players that will challenge the incumbent. In this case, I would have tried to find a better player than Doug Taylor, someone who could blocks shot beeter and rebound better. Taylor may make a huge jump next year, I could see it. I don't think Mickle is that player. With what he have on our roster, I would have recruited a wing to challenge Block and a big to challenge Taylor and replace Tone.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

perimeterpost
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 4:32:53 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

There's more to a long term recruiting strategy than sitting at a computer, finding the statistically most impressive players, then doing whatever it takes to sign them.

One of the main strategies is to build recruiting pipelines into certain cities, regions, schools.

Recruiting "over" players isn't a good way to do this. For example, I'm not sure that recruiting a "big" who will be our most important inside player next year sends the right message to Doug Taylor. Doug, we're giving up on ya. We are continuing to build a recruiting pipeline into Columbus and schools like Northland. Recruiting "over" players we get from there could shake the confidence of those high school coaches, AAU coaches ,and parents when we come calling in the future.

If a player is a complete washout, I could understand recruiting over him. That's not the case with Doug. Still has a good upside for improvement. So why throw him and Northland under the bus to bring in someone who is an unknown from God knows where?

This is a reason why a signing like Mickel could be a really good fit for Ohio. A tough guy who will help us inside without recruiting "over" existing players or incoming freshmen. We recruited Gareri and Vander Plas because we have confidence they can do the job. Why send them a conflicting message?

Still shaking my head over the vote of no confidence being shown toward these incoming freshmen from some posters on here. But some of these same folks said Carter wasn't really any more than a scrub at the Div I level.

Would appreciate any feedback or criticism of what I'm saying here.

so we should not try to recruit a post player that is better than Taylor because it might hurt his feelings?

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

FearLeon
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 4:46:47 PM

perimeterpost wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

There's more to a long term recruiting strategy than sitting at a computer, finding the statistically most impressive players, then doing whatever it takes to sign them.

One of the main strategies is to build recruiting pipelines into certain cities, regions, schools.

Recruiting "over" players isn't a good way to do this. For example, I'm not sure that recruiting a "big" who will be our most important inside player next year sends the right message to Doug Taylor. Doug, we're giving up on ya. We are continuing to build a recruiting pipeline into Columbus and schools like Northland. Recruiting "over" players we get from there could shake the confidence of those high school coaches, AAU coaches ,and parents when we come calling in the future.

If a player is a complete washout, I could understand recruiting over him. That's not the case with Doug. Still has a good upside for improvement. So why throw him and Northland under the bus to bring in someone who is an unknown from God knows where?

This is a reason why a signing like Mickel could be a really good fit for Ohio. A tough guy who will help us inside without recruiting "over" existing players or incoming freshmen. We recruited Gareri and Vander Plas because we have confidence they can do the job. Why send them a conflicting message?

Still shaking my head over the vote of no confidence being shown toward these incoming freshmen from some posters on here. But some of these same folks said Carter wasn't really any more than a scrub at the Div I level.

Would appreciate any feedback or criticism of what I'm saying here.

so we should not try to recruit a post player that is better than Taylor because it might hurt his feelings?

+1^^^^^^^^^^^^ If DT averages 8 points and 8 boards during his Junior season, I'll come back here and say I was dead wrong about DT. Some people on this board compared Taylor to Antonio Campbell during Tone's Sophomore year. Huh? Campbell averaged 10 points and 7 rebounds his SOPHOMORE YEAR. If you can bring in a better player than what you already have on the current roster, you do it....period. The fact is that DT doesn't have one offensive move in the paint. I pray that he's going to a couple of big man camps this summer to work on footwork. I truly hope DT proves me wrong in 2017-2018. Maybe he can find some KVK magic heading into his Junior year.

And if people are worried about players coming here and reading comments...who cares? Can you imagine what it's like on message boards for players at Kansas, North Carolina, Kentucky...etc. If a player can use a fan comment on this message board as motivation, then I'm all for it. Get after it this summer DT and prove me, Allen and some others on this board all wrong. I want nothing more than to see this young man help lead OHIO back to its first NCAA Tournament in 5 years.

Last Edited: 4/23/2017 4:52:53 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 6:02:33 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

There's more to a long term recruiting strategy than sitting at a computer, finding the statistically most impressive players, then doing whatever it takes to sign them.

One of the main strategies is to build recruiting pipelines into certain cities, regions, schools.

Recruiting "over" players isn't a good way to do this. For example, I'm not sure that recruiting a "big" who will be our most important inside player next year sends the right message to Doug Taylor. Doug, we're giving up on ya. We are continuing to build a recruiting pipeline into Columbus and schools like Northland. Recruiting "over" players we get from there could shake the confidence of those high school coaches, AAU coaches ,and parents when we come calling in the future.

If a player is a complete washout, I could understand recruiting over him. That's not the case with Doug. Still has a good upside for improvement. So why throw him and Northland under the bus to bring in someone who is an unknown from God knows where?

This is a reason why a signing like Mickel could be a really good fit for Ohio. A tough guy who will help us inside without recruiting "over" existing players or incoming freshmen. We recruited Gareri and Vander Plas because we have confidence they can do the job. Why send them a conflicting message?

Still shaking my head over the vote of no confidence being shown toward these incoming freshmen from some posters on here. But some of these same folks said Carter wasn't really any more than a scrub at the Div I level.

Would appreciate any feedback or criticism of what I'm saying here.

+1. Agree through and through, especially with our in-roads we have made in-state. Everyone knows with Campbell potentially not coming back and losing Wadly we had to go get a big to fill depth and to balance classes.

As to our in-state, couldn't agree more. I've harped on this when I give my props to our current staff. They do great work identifying both the in-state and out-of-state kids and in turn should set up nicely for the next 5 years (note: I do include Saul leaving and one of our assistants getting the HC job here in Athens. Not sure who, but I feel we will have great in-state relationships to sustain a coaching transition.)

bobcatsquared
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 7:06:44 PM

Couldn't disagree more.

If I'm Larry Hunter 20-plus years ago and I can get a stud better than Gary Trent I sign him up right away. If I can get a player better than my hometown boy Jordan Dartis then I go get him. If a player better than DT or any other player on our roster shows interest in becoming a Bobcat I do everything I can to get him down to Athens.

crackerbaby00
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 7:07:19 PM

While I dont really agree that we shouldnt recruit players better than our current players (a rising tide raises all boats), I am baffled at the faction of people that don't see the value that Taylor provides. He played just 13.5 mpg last year and averaged just under 4ppg and 5rpg. I realize that it is not matter of simply multiplying, but if he plays 27mpg next year, I could see him averaging 7 and 8 or 7 and 9. He averaged almost 2 rpg more than our starting PF who played more than twice as many minutes. He also averaged just under a block per game, so he could easily average 1.5-2 bpg next year.

As for not having an offensive game, not eveyone on the teams has to score to be effective. If that were the case, Ben Wallace would have never lasted as long as he did in the NBA. I am not saying that Taylor is Big Ben, but if all he does is rebound, play defense, block a couple shots per game, and allow Carter to play the 4, I would consider that an effective year.

I feel like there is a growing number of people on this site that don't realize that there is a natural progression from freshman to senior year. His first two years with the team, Taylor has been behind Campbell (junior and MAC POTY), KK (junior and P5 transfer), and Setty (senior) in year one and then Campbell, KK, and Carter (all-freshman team) in year two. With Campbell and KK moving on, Taylor will have his chance to show what he can do. Who knows, his role may completely change if he ends up starting.

I would compare his first two years to that of DeVaughn Washington. His freshman year, he averaged 1 and 1 in 6.5 mpg while appearing in 32 games playing behind Leon, Jerome, and KVK. As a soph, he averaged 6.7 and 4.4 in 22mpg while sharing time with KVK next to Tillman. In the same number of minutes, Taylor would have averaged 6.2 and 7.8. In DeVaughn's junior year, he averaged 25mpg and finshed with 11.3 and 5.4. He was asked to be the primary post scorer while starting with KVK and being backed up by freshmen Keely and Ivo. Taylor will not be asked to be a primary scorer in the post, as Carter will assume that role.

Is this a guarantee that Taylor will progress the same way? Of course not. But players generally improve the longer they are in a program. I am excited to see what the young man can do with more playing time in the fall.

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 8:00:36 PM

I will say there are times that when you have a kid that you can go get that's pretty good, you go get em. As long as you are up-front and honest, kids will show up and play ball and not plan on leaving.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 8:06:36 PM

I'm not saying that we don't recruit players better than our current players. I'm saying that for a mid major, there has to be a wise sequence of signings that continually upgrade the roster talent, but the mid major also has to balance that out with keeping the bridges strong with established recruiting pipelines. Disregard for that can cause instability.

For high major programs that recruit nationally, they maybe can use the model suggested by Allen and Fear Leon. For a mid major in the MAC, it's more important to cultivate relationships with certain cities, schools and regions. High majors don't have to worry as much about burning bridges. For example, Louisville has four and five star talents nationally who want to play for Pitino.

Getting a reputation as a school which quickly tosses aside developing players isn't good for a mid major that wants stable growth.

Some of you sound like NBA GMs.

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 9:45:33 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 9:47:38 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

I agree.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

FearLeon
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 9:50:50 PM

This is a damn good thread. #solid

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Chicken George
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 10:39:13 PM

I recall a great conversation with JC where he told me that you can't fill an entire roster with guys who expect immediate PT or you're going to turn them over in frustration. At the same time, SP tenure at OHIO has been filled with a short bench and lots of dead weight on the sidelines that based on how much he plays them--is not useful or functional as they're either not available to play or he doesn't have the confidence too play them. He's worn the tread on more than a couple guys and plays his bench very short minutes. Based on that mere fact, I think I'd be taking "best available" right now and building depth. Not sure he's in the position to be "protecting" guys right now. What do we have, like 2 guaranteed parts to MAC Championship Team puzzle (Carter & Simmons and we're not even sure of Simmons)? Every other roster position is "maybe's," "could be's" and "we expect to be be's." I see nobody whose spots are protected, do you? Our PG could be leaving and we have no proven back up. Our #2 is one dimensional and while he's my favorite player, could be more versatile. Our #3 IMO opinion needs totally upgraded all together. Could score more, could slash more, could be more athletic, could be a lot of things. And at the #4 and/or #5 we've got Carter and nothing else guaranteed. That to me is not a "cupboard is full" situation. That to me, is a situation where lots of positions are open competitions going into next season.

Secondly, this fan board confuses me. If it's strictly going on cold hard facts and researched opinions, then it should only be a 3-5 pages long. This is a time killing board filled with opinions and hunches. Personally, I'm not doing research like I do for work, I'm just giving first hunch opinions. Granted, there are some really "not well thought out stuff" on here, but most is filler. In regards to Mickle, how can you grill people for not being impressed? Honestly, unless you're watching film I haven't seen; talking to people in the know; or are a FGCU fan that's been watching games the past 2-3 years and see something good--just based on the facts you're given, you're not impressed. Even the Naples Daily News article stated, "Mickle, who still is green offensively (despite being a Senior)," and is "apparently going to take a step down from Division I in search or more playing time." If that's the data you're presented with, are you really excited? On a casual fan board do you expect people to read this limited data and go, "GREAT GET. Way to find what on paper looks like one of the less appealing options on the transfer wire, while UM is going after Simmons, probably one of the more attractive options?" We won't know until we see him and then the pie is on the face of those who questioned the choice, but come on, true or false--just not great front page appeal.

Last Edited: 4/23/2017 10:41:17 PM by Chicken George

FearLeon
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 11:18:44 PM

Chicken George wrote:

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All of it. Too many people here are satisfied with 20 wins and CBI. Wish more people would get fired up over the fact this program hasn't been to the NCAA Tourney in 5 years. I don't care if players feelings get hurt because Saul found a better guy. This team has a ton of questions marks heading into next season. We just took a guy who many believed wasn't even going to play D-One this season. Something I also pointed out in a previous post. This coming from the paper that covers FGCU on a regular basis. Saul has had dead weight on the bench the last two seasons that didn't have a chance at hitting the floor. We needed to hit a home run or a triple with this grad transfer. Right now, it looks like a bunt single.

Last Edited: 4/24/2017 1:26:22 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/23/2017 11:59:58 PM

FearLeon wrote:

Chicken George wrote:

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All of it. Too many people here are satisfied with 20 wins and CBI. Wish more people would get fired up over the fact this program hasn't been to the NCAA Tourney in 5 years. I'm not into players feelings getting hurt. This team has a ton of questions marks heading into next season. We just took a guy who many believed wasn't even going to play D-One this season. Something I also pointed out in a previous post. This coming from the paper that covers FGCU on a regular basis. Saul has had dead weight on the bench the last two seasons that didn't have a chance at hitting the floor. We needed to hit a home run or a triple with this grad transfer. Right now, it looks like a bunt single.

You mean if the ball stays fair....then again like I said, our classes needed balanced badly.

I mean I'm glad he's getting this aspect back in order. That said, this is a grad transfer he needed to get something to contribute due to the potential for a thin rotation again.

Taiwan BC
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 12:06:32 AM

One thing that may have influenced the quality of recruit we are able to get is that we are not exactly sure our scholarship situation right now... I would think being 95 percent certain of having a scholly to give is actually a bit different than 100 percent. We're not exactly Michigan in the ability to have kids wait and see... My opinion is wholly based on us still not knowing what will happen with Campbell or Simmons.

Last Edited: 4/24/2017 12:07:44 AM by Taiwan BC

Ohio69
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 8:53:06 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Still shaking my head over the vote of no confidence being shown toward these incoming freshmen from some posters on here. But some of these same folks said Carter wasn't really any more than a scrub at the Div I level.

I agree with the above. Phillips and company have done pretty darn well recruiting.

We beat a list of very good mid-majors and some high-majors for this years class (Butler, Gareri, Vander Plas, Kirk) and past classes. And Jason Carter is a total stud.

They had to let 2 scholarships sit unused with Mompremier and Harley. What could have been with those 2? I'm guessing something good. And unfortunately Christian's leftovers chased Ryan Taylor out of Athens very quickly. (After a year with mono -- he had to be just miserable)

I like what we have coming in. And Coach Phillips is owed some positive Karma.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 9:41:03 AM

Chicken George wrote:

great post

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 9:42:20 AM

FearLeon wrote:

Chicken George wrote:

Read my mind

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 11:06:34 AM

If you think it's cool to refer to our student athletes or any human beings as "dead weight" for no reason other than they don't get much playing time, then I think you belong on another board.

Ohio69
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 11:38:09 AM

FearLeon wrote:

Too many people here are satisfied with 20 wins and CBI. Wish more people would get fired up over the fact this program hasn't been to the NCAA Tourney in 5 years.

Meh. Too many people on here think we all need to run around screaming and yelling that the sky is falling.

Some of us already know how this all works. Coach Phillips will get 3-4 more years. And, if we don't go the the NCAA tournament, he'll be fired. Whether he deserves it or not. Because that's what happens at 1 bid conferences and mid-major schools. And if he wins the MAC Tourney and it looks really impressive, he will leave for another school with higher pay, a longer guaranteed contract, and a conference with multiple bids. Just like Dambrot just did.

We just brought in what looks like 4 really promising freshman and a grad transfer role player. Seems like a nice Spring to me.

Go Bobcats!

Last Edited: 4/24/2017 11:41:13 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

allen
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 11:41:09 AM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

If you think it's cool to refer to our student athletes or any human beings as "dead weight" for no reason other than they don't get much playing time, then I think you belong on another board.

Let's be in our feelings

And our feelings
Just aren't feelings anymore
They're just words that come from whispers
From people we don't know
And our feelings
Just aren't feelings anymore
They're just words without emotion
From people who don't know

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OU_Country
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 2:03:42 PM

allen wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

If you think it's cool to refer to our student athletes or any human beings as "dead weight" for no reason other than they don't get much playing time, then I think you belong on another board.

What the heck is this?

OU_Country
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 2:12:28 PM

I like the thread discussion here. I can see both sides of the arguments in this thread. I agree that consistently recruiting over players isn't a good thing to do, especially in recruiting relationships that are being built. On the other hand, in cases where you can get a guy you think will be great, where you already have a young starter, I think it's a good plan. For Ohio next year, I'd say the PG position is an area where they've done exactly that.

I don't pretend to know who else the staff might have been recruiting instead of Mickel, and I agree that in terms of making a splash, this isn't that kind of signing. I do believe that the combination of Carter, Taylor, Vanden Plas, Gareri, and Mickel will get it done in the paint. And if you think kids aren't being recruited over, consider young Mr. Dozier. He just saw three guys that are new that he's likely to have to jump over for PT. So, I think they're going about this with a plan.

OUVan
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RE: Recruiting "over" players

Posted: 4/24/2017 2:13:08 PM

FearLeon wrote:

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ All of it. Too many people here are satisfied with 20 wins and CBI. Wish more people would get fired up over the fact this program hasn't been to the NCAA Tourney in 5 years.

I'm sorry but this is a load of bull. How is it you don't factor in that we are on our 3rd coach since our last NCAA appearance 5 years ago? Winning 20 games a year and peaking out in the CBI isn't acceptable in a vacuum. But you can't just blindly look at the year end results and state that the program isn't successful. We had a coach that earned a higher paying job and took it. He was replaced by a successful coach whose program wasn't built for the players he inherited. He was able to average nearly 25 wins his two season however and then he took the money and ran. He handed over a roster that wasn't at all built for his successor. Coach number three has turned over the roster with a lot fewer growing pains than I would have expected (one horrible year) and has us headed in the right direction. He might have done considerably better if he hadn't lost, not only our best player but the league's best player three games into the conference season. With each coaching change it takes time to build the program into his mold.

You guys can put on your recruiting in a vacuum hats all you want but it's not that simple. Recruiting isn't an exact science and there are a ton of personalities involved particularly for a college coach. You can say screw your current players and recruit over them and think you'll be successful but if I'm a kid and I know a coach isn't committed to me then why would I be committed to him? And if I'm an AAU or high school coach and I know a coach is going to screw my kid if a prettier penny comes along then why would I recommend my kid or kids go there? This isn't a video game where you can just replace an 82 rated player with an 88 and feel you've done well.

And I love the fact that you think that if people are satisfied with our recruiting that it means that we are fine with CBI appearances. That's idiotic. I can't speak for everyone but my stance is that I love what Saul has brought to the table. I love his offense. I love the type of player he brings into the program. I love the fact that Saul stayed committed to players like Mike Laster so we could watch him blossom. I'm looking forward to the same thing with Doug Taylor. I think Jordan Dartis, Gavin Block and Jason Carter are tremendous recruits. Our incoming freshman are all cut from a similar mold. I'm particularly excited about Ben Vander Plas but I think all four are going to be good because all four see the floor and move the ball and that's the hallmark of a Saul recruit. I really, really don't understand all the hand-wringing going on. With or without Jaaron Simmons we are going to be good next year. Possibly really good.

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