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Topic:  RE: We are number 400+

Topic:  RE: We are number 400+
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/30/2020 12:24:06 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
The strategy has been growth to stay important in state funding considerations and to keep the new construction dollars flowing.

Admissions are supply and demand driven. Foreign students out of the equation is going to reduce demand at all the public schools, opening more spots in-state. Miami has relied on big demand in foreign students and out-of-state applicants which should dry up.

OSU tried to grow its traditional freshman class size this past decade. With more in-state slots they might have to chase less competitive students and snowball back down the rankings.

The pandemic could force them into equilibrium with Ohio's admissions.


OSU grew their freshman classes by about a thousand in recent years to almost 8000, and they did it without dropping in quality. Avereage SAT/ACT just grew more slowly than it had been previously, but it's still in the top 10 for public universities. As I've argued here before, OSU is literally stockpiling high quality Ohio kids while the rest of the system (except perhaps UC and Fiami) are facing severe enrollment shortages. People need to stop clinging to the fantasy that OSU is ever going to be in equilibrium in admissions or rankings or endowment or research or anything else with Ohio or Miami or Cincinnati or any other Ohio public. Instead, make some kind of deal with them to cap their freshman classes at a certain number and free up a thousand or more good quality kids for the rest of the schools which desperately need them.


OSU is stockpiling but they've also grown a big out of state enrollment that could be in jeopardy. When you're as high up there in the rankings as OSU it takes a critical mass of demand to sustain it because all of the pressure is downward.

What I traditionally heard was that in SW Ohio if you don't get into Miami you end up attending UC. If Miami needs more students that is going to chip into UC's pool or they'll be both losing more students to OSU. Miami has slipped out of the top 100 USWNR and they desperately need those rankings to justify their price point.

Regardless of endowment or research funding 90% of the USWNR ranking is the admissions (though both endowment and research drive perception) and it takes a huge demand for any public to sustain it at 3.75/27 ACT level. That OSU has used a historic football run to swell demand is a cause for concern when no football is being played.

Its tough to predict but the next 5 years are going to be interesting.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/30/2020 12:43:22 PM 
This looks pretty if BG is up this year in enrollment with a 3.59 GPA while Ohio's freshman class is down 8-15%.

Are we about to fall behind BG in the rankings too?

https://www.sent-trib.com/news/bgsu-announces-record-rete... .


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 9/30/2020 5:02:18 PM 
Its bizarre to be struggling compared to 20 years ago (at least relative to the other state schools) to bring the students in with all the improvements in around Athens. The university endowment is up to $730 million, seven times larger than what it was 20 years ago.

Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.

I found a site called niche. It rated Ohio #12 best school in the state, behind Miami at #8 and UC at #7. The net yearly price for attending Ohio is listed as higher than OSU and Miami. In fact it was almost the same price as attending Ohio Northern and Cedarville University ranked right around OU at #11 and #12. Muskingum University is $3000 a year cheaper.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges/s/ohio /

Ohio promise campaign out of steam? Four year tuition guarantee meaningless when housing is so high in cost?

Last Edited: 9/30/2020 5:02:44 PM by Club Hyatt


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/1/2020 8:26:15 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:


Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.


This feels backwards to me. Those in it for the party culture are the exact folks for whom coming to Athens makes sense.

The problem seems more that those in it for the degree -- and the job that comes after that -- are finding better options elsewhere. No?
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/1/2020 2:35:55 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:


Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.


This feels backwards to me. Those in it for the party culture are the exact folks for whom coming to Athens makes sense.

The problem seems more that those in it for the degree -- and the job that comes after that -- are finding better options elsewhere. No?


I'm saying the combination of reliance on out of the area students and those who are coming into town for the party scene that doesn't exist with COVID-19 is a double whammy for enrollment.

If you are in it for a professional program there is more motivation to attend one of those offered at OU. For example there is not that many engineering schools in the state which limits your options.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/1/2020 7:59:33 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
Its bizarre to be struggling compared to 20 years ago (at least relative to the other state schools) to bring the students in with all the improvements in around Athens. The university endowment is up to $730 million, seven times larger than what it was 20 years ago.

Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.

I found a site called niche. It rated Ohio #12 best school in the state, behind Miami at #8 and UC at #7. The net yearly price for attending Ohio is listed as higher than OSU and Miami. In fact it was almost the same price as attending Ohio Northern and Cedarville University ranked right around OU at #11 and #12. Muskingum University is $3000 a year cheaper.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges/s/ohio /

Ohio promise campaign out of steam? Four year tuition guarantee meaningless when housing is so high in cost?


Thanks for the link. I was looking at the SAT range, and I'm surprised about a couple of things. First, that Case is above Kenyon and Oberlin. Second, that OSU is so close to Kenyon and Oberlin with 8K freshman classes. Third, that the gap between Fiami and Cincinnati is much, much closer than I would have guessed. Most Miami alums I know refuse to believe that OSU is close to them (much less the reality of far above them), so I'd guess their heads would explode like the dude from Scanners if they knew that UC was closing in on them. Oh well, @#$% them.

As for Ohio, it just makes me more angry at the lost window we had when there were favorable demographics in Ohio to strengthen our admissions profile. UC found a way, but we didn't, and that's on McDavis.

Last Edited: 10/1/2020 8:00:24 PM by OUPride

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/1/2020 9:16:41 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
Its bizarre to be struggling compared to 20 years ago (at least relative to the other state schools) to bring the students in with all the improvements in around Athens. The university endowment is up to $730 million, seven times larger than what it was 20 years ago.

Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.

I found a site called niche. It rated Ohio #12 best school in the state, behind Miami at #8 and UC at #7. The net yearly price for attending Ohio is listed as higher than OSU and Miami. In fact it was almost the same price as attending Ohio Northern and Cedarville University ranked right around OU at #11 and #12. Muskingum University is $3000 a year cheaper.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges/s/ohio /

Ohio promise campaign out of steam? Four year tuition guarantee meaningless when housing is so high in cost?


But what are we using that endowment for? Education or to start and run more businesses? Maybe buy more hand sanitizer?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/1/2020 9:20:23 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
Its bizarre to be struggling compared to 20 years ago (at least relative to the other state schools) to bring the students in with all the improvements in around Athens. The university endowment is up to $730 million, seven times larger than what it was 20 years ago.

Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.

I found a site called niche. It rated Ohio #12 best school in the state, behind Miami at #8 and UC at #7. The net yearly price for attending Ohio is listed as higher than OSU and Miami. In fact it was almost the same price as attending Ohio Northern and Cedarville University ranked right around OU at #11 and #12. Muskingum University is $3000 a year cheaper.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges/s/ohio /

Ohio promise campaign out of steam? Four year tuition guarantee meaningless when housing is so high in cost?


Thanks for the link. I was looking at the SAT range, and I'm surprised about a couple of things. First, that Case is above Kenyon and Oberlin. Second, that OSU is so close to Kenyon and Oberlin with 8K freshman classes. Third, that the gap between Fiami and Cincinnati is much, much closer than I would have guessed. Most Miami alums I know refuse to believe that OSU is close to them (much less the reality of far above them), so I'd guess their heads would explode like the dude from Scanners if they knew that UC was closing in on them. Oh well, @#$% them.

As for Ohio, it just makes me more angry at the lost window we had when there were favorable demographics in Ohio to strengthen our admissions profile. UC found a way, but we didn't, and that's on McDavis.



Maybe on McDavis, but what is new administration doing to reverse this or stop the bleeding?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/2/2020 9:36:39 AM 
That's a good question, and I'd like to see and hear some concrete proposals from the current administration on how to move forward. I'd also like to hear them honestly address the problem and the reality of the state system rather than pump sunshine up our asses like McDavis did for so many years ("in three years, we're going to be more selective than Ohio State has ever dreamed of being"). Whatever good, bad or mediocre the current President and administration is or isn't doing, there's no denying that they were handed a terribly weak hand by McDavis and (to mix metaphors) are now having to try and come back from 5 runs down against a balls out closer.

OSU seems content with their position in the rankings (the average ACT is 30 not 27) and would rather pad their enrollment and cash so long as there's no drops in quality. Like a broken record, I think the rest of the system needs to accept the reality (we had our revolution against them in the 60s; we lost) and make some kind of deal in order to cap their freshman class size and free up hundreds of well qualified kids for the rest of the schools.

And their rise has nothing to do with their recent football run. They were in the 50s in USNWR before it began. It was simply the reemergence of the state's richest and only AAU school from a forced open admissions period in the 60s and 70s. It was pretty much inevitable the moment the state let them compete with Miami as a selective public that they would end up where they are. We then also waited half a decade before we asked the state to move to selective admissions, so Ping deserves more than a little bit of heat here and you can possibly argue that because of that perhaps Glidden and McDavis were also handed a difficult situation where they were playing catch up from the beginning.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/2/2020 2:37:31 PM 
I read the comments on niche and a lot of the positive vibes around OSU are centered around the football team. In the 80's and 90's OSU football was talked about about from the Ohio St-Michigan game through the bowl game but not the 24/7 media coverage it earned. Internet was a large factor in all of that to help promote and spread OSU's brand. That doesn't take away all the fundamentals as to why OSU moved up their admissions.

OU's marketplace in higher education has never been well understood. Many students had considered private schools before selecting OU and because its a smaller more intimate environment. I agree they should have capped the freshman class at 3500 when they had a chance.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/2/2020 2:51:13 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
Its bizarre to be struggling compared to 20 years ago (at least relative to the other state schools) to bring the students in with all the improvements in around Athens. The university endowment is up to $730 million, seven times larger than what it was 20 years ago.

Ohio is completely dependent on students coming in from other cities to make the numbers work and it might be a reluctance to want to go too far from home. Those in it for the party culture might not see the point.

I found a site called niche. It rated Ohio #12 best school in the state, behind Miami at #8 and UC at #7. The net yearly price for attending Ohio is listed as higher than OSU and Miami. In fact it was almost the same price as attending Ohio Northern and Cedarville University ranked right around OU at #11 and #12. Muskingum University is $3000 a year cheaper.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges/s/ohio /

Ohio promise campaign out of steam? Four year tuition guarantee meaningless when housing is so high in cost?


But what are we using that endowment for? Education or to start and run more businesses? Maybe buy more hand sanitizer?


A lot of that money has come into the engineering college and medical school which are in the process of adding new facilities. The full power of that money I don't believe has been realized yet.

Keep in mind most of the admissions for this year were locked prior to COVID so next year might see a deeper impact. OSU is down only 15% for this year in international students, a stat that is hard to believe in this environment. All the college seniors are going into this year thinking about the pandemic when deciding what to do for college. OSU said they were able to recruit more out-of-state students as an offset but I think the trend is stay closer to home.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/3/2020 12:41:19 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
I read the comments on niche and a lot of the positive vibes around OSU are centered around the football team. In the 80's and 90's OSU football was talked about about from the Ohio St-Michigan game through the bowl game but not the 24/7 media coverage it earned. Internet was a large factor in all of that to help promote and spread OSU's brand. That doesn't take away all the fundamentals as to why OSU moved up their admissions.

OU's marketplace in higher education has never been well understood. Many students had considered private schools before selecting OU and because its a smaller more intimate environment. I agree they should have capped the freshman class at 3500 when they had a chance.


You realize that Earl got fired for not giving the 24/7 media access when they wanted it? Not sure why you believe OSU football has just been discovered by the people of Ohio and the US.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/3/2020 11:09:58 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
I read the comments on niche and a lot of the positive vibes around OSU are centered around the football team. In the 80's and 90's OSU football was talked about about from the Ohio St-Michigan game through the bowl game but not the 24/7 media coverage it earned. Internet was a large factor in all of that to help promote and spread OSU's brand. That doesn't take away all the fundamentals as to why OSU moved up their admissions.

OU's marketplace in higher education has never been well understood. Many students had considered private schools before selecting OU and because its a smaller more intimate environment. I agree they should have capped the freshman class at 3500 when they had a chance.


You realize that Earl got fired for not giving the 24/7 media access when they wanted it? Not sure why you believe OSU football has just been discovered by the people of Ohio and the US.


For various reasons it didn't have the visibility as it does today. Ohio St was for a long time second fiddle in the Big Ten to Michigan and that is where the top HS students who liked football wanted to go.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/3/2020 11:54:15 AM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
I read the comments on niche and a lot of the positive vibes around OSU are centered around the football team. In the 80's and 90's OSU football was talked about about from the Ohio St-Michigan game through the bowl game but not the 24/7 media coverage it earned. Internet was a large factor in all of that to help promote and spread OSU's brand. That doesn't take away all the fundamentals as to why OSU moved up their admissions.

OU's marketplace in higher education has never been well understood. Many students had considered private schools before selecting OU and because its a smaller more intimate environment. I agree they should have capped the freshman class at 3500 when they had a chance.


You realize that Earl got fired for not giving the 24/7 media access when they wanted it? Not sure why you believe OSU football has just been discovered by the people of Ohio and the US.


For various reasons it didn't have the visibility as it does today. Ohio St was for a long time second fiddle in the Big Ten to Michigan and that is where the top HS students who liked football wanted to go.


That's funny. When was that exactly (what time period)?

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/3/2020 12:42:07 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Club Hyatt wrote:
I read the comments on niche and a lot of the positive vibes around OSU are centered around the football team. In the 80's and 90's OSU football was talked about about from the Ohio St-Michigan game through the bowl game but not the 24/7 media coverage it earned. Internet was a large factor in all of that to help promote and spread OSU's brand. That doesn't take away all the fundamentals as to why OSU moved up their admissions.

OU's marketplace in higher education has never been well understood. Many students had considered private schools before selecting OU and because its a smaller more intimate environment. I agree they should have capped the freshman class at 3500 when they had a chance.


You realize that Earl got fired for not giving the 24/7 media access when they wanted it? Not sure why you believe OSU football has just been discovered by the people of Ohio and the US.


For various reasons it didn't have the visibility as it does today. Ohio St was for a long time second fiddle in the Big Ten to Michigan and that is where the top HS students who liked football wanted to go.


That's funny. When was that exactly (what time period)?



I'd say that OSU was not nationally relevant and mediocre, at least by blueblood standards, from the early 80s to the early 90s. That coincides exactly with their shaking off the open admissions mandate, becoming a fundraising powerhouse (they completed what at the time was the largest ever campaign by a public when I worked at the statehouse in the early 90s) and separating themselves from the rest of the system academically. It wasn't being driven by some fever for bucknut football.

My point has always been that it's not football related, and dates back to state decisions 100 to a 150 years ago. They were in the AAU 20 years before they became a national football powerhouse. Merely hoping for them to hit a rough patch in football to slide back academically is the most wishful thinking imaginable. There is never going to be some restoration of the pre-1870 order (and that wishful thinking has been sold by Ohio Presidents from Alden to McDavis), and Ohio needs to think very creatively about what it is, what it's future is and how it moves forward.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/3/2020 10:44:32 PM 
You lay a lot at the feet of presidents, but what about the trustees?


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: We are number 400+
   Posted: 10/4/2020 2:02:41 AM 
JSF wrote:
You lay a lot at the feet of presidents, but what about the trustees?


You mean the same trustees who give $100k bonuses for 3 years service.
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