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Topic:  Required Reading

Topic:  Required Reading
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RSBobcat
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 3,947

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  Message Not Read  Required Reading
   Posted: 8/5/2019 12:07:56 AM 
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


RS Bobcat

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,439

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/5/2019 8:16:41 AM 
RSBobcat wrote:
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


Am reading it as we speak. Two of the non-negotiables for the leaders of the Ohio Company were that there would not be slavery in the Northwest Territory and that there would be a university. A change in one vote when Ohio was formed would have made Ohio a slave state. As for the university, it was never in doubt. Fascinating read.

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Jeff Johnson
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Lake Frederick, VA
Post Count: 152

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/5/2019 9:03:01 AM 
RSBobcat wrote:
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


Thanks RSBobcat for the heads-up...I immediately ordered the book on my Kindle. McCulloch's books are always well written and entertaining, and I'm sure that I will enjoy reading it.

I am an avid student of SE Ohio and NW Territory history as ancestors on both sides of my families were among the earliest settlers to the region and participants in that history.

Last Edited: 8/5/2019 9:04:07 AM by Jeff Johnson


Jeff Johnson '67, Lake Frederick, Virginia
Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. Benjamin Franklin

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,322

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/5/2019 10:49:29 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


Am reading it as we speak. Two of the non-negotiables for the leaders of the Ohio Company were that there would not be slavery in the Northwest Territory and that there would be a university. A change in one vote when Ohio was formed would have made Ohio a slave state. As for the university, it was never in doubt. Fascinating read.



Two things Alan: One the vote would not have made Ohio a slave state. That was prohibited by the Northwest Ordinance. It would have introduced "limited slavery" into Ohio, which certainly could have been expanded in a defacto way. The other is that McCullough repeated an oft cited myth. The vote to defeat the slavery clause was actually not just by one vote. The essence of the story, however, is true. Ephraim Cutler was brought to the convention on a stretcher. He got up and made an impassioned speech. Prior to his speech the slavery provision well might have passed. However, his speech was so effective that he changed several votes, enough for the measure to be defeated by several votes. The one vote story kind of captures the dramatic events and correctly gives Cutler the credit for the the defeat of the slavery provision. It's a benign legend.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,461

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  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 6:24:05 AM 
Thanks for posting this !

Bought the book last night.

Really enjoying it.

The book also has some really good illustrations.

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,439

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  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 7:58:50 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


Am reading it as we speak. Two of the non-negotiables for the leaders of the Ohio Company were that there would not be slavery in the Northwest Territory and that there would be a university. A change in one vote when Ohio was formed would have made Ohio a slave state. As for the university, it was never in doubt. Fascinating read.



Two things Alan: One the vote would not have made Ohio a slave state. That was prohibited by the Northwest Ordinance. It would have introduced "limited slavery" into Ohio, which certainly could have been expanded in a defacto way. The other is that McCullough repeated an oft cited myth. The vote to defeat the slavery clause was actually not just by one vote. The essence of the story, however, is true. Ephraim Cutler was brought to the convention on a stretcher. He got up and made an impassioned speech. Prior to his speech the slavery provision well might have passed. However, his speech was so effective that he changed several votes, enough for the measure to be defeated by several votes. The one vote story kind of captures the dramatic events and correctly gives Cutler the credit for the the defeat of the slavery provision. It's a benign legend.


So if that is true, how much of the other stuff that McCullough put in the book should we accept as truth?

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,461

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  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 8:35:22 AM 
I was somewhat surprised that the sales person at Barnes and Noble said the
book is one of their best sellers.
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Ted Thompson
Administrator



Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: MAC Play
Post Count: 6,182

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 9:08:44 AM 
I read his book on the Wright Brothers and loved it.


Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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OU_Country
General User



Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On US33 between Athens and Madison Co., OH
Post Count: 7,130

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 10:43:52 AM 
Thanks for the heads up. I have this in my list for books to buy, or borrow from the library.
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Mike Johnson
General User



Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,445

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 10:58:08 AM 
Me too. I have several books on my shelves.



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OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,322

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 11:01:25 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Apologies if was posted elsewhere - But any true OHIO UNIVERSITY enthusiast should read this recently new book

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/08/721352662/the-pioneers-div...


Am reading it as we speak. Two of the non-negotiables for the leaders of the Ohio Company were that there would not be slavery in the Northwest Territory and that there would be a university. A change in one vote when Ohio was formed would have made Ohio a slave state. As for the university, it was never in doubt. Fascinating read.



Two things Alan: One the vote would not have made Ohio a slave state. That was prohibited by the Northwest Ordinance. It would have introduced "limited slavery" into Ohio, which certainly could have been expanded in a defacto way. The other is that McCullough repeated an oft cited myth. The vote to defeat the slavery clause was actually not just by one vote. The essence of the story, however, is true. Ephraim Cutler was brought to the convention on a stretcher. He got up and made an impassioned speech. Prior to his speech the slavery provision well might have passed. However, his speech was so effective that he changed several votes, enough for the measure to be defeated by several votes. The one vote story kind of captures the dramatic events and correctly gives Cutler the credit for the the defeat of the slavery provision. It's a benign legend.


So if that is true, how much of the other stuff that McCullough put in the book should we accept as truth?



Hes generally a careful researcher. In this case he relied on numerous secondary sources that all said the same thing, and he assumed they were correct. I doubt there are other significant factual errors in this book. A number of years ago I stumbled on the proceedings of the convention, while actually looking for something else in them I happened to see the series of votes on the issues related to African American rights.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,322

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/6/2019 11:55:27 AM 
Alan:

I went back and looked at the Ohio Archaelogical and Historical Publications, Volume V (John L. Trauger, Columbus: 1895), which contains the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention in 1802, and was reminded how complex these votes were. There were actually a series of votes on questions related to rights of blacks and the question of slavery.

The only one that I could find that was decided by only one vote was a motion to strike out of the constitution these words: "But no negro or mulatto shall ever be eligible to any office, civil or military, or give their oath in any court of justice against a white person, be subject to military duty, or pay a poll-tax in this State; Provided always, and it is fully understood and declared, that all negroes and mulattoes now in, or who may hereafter reside in, this State, shall be entitled to all the privileges of citizens of this State excepted by this constitution."

Striking these words from the constitution passed by one vote (17-16), and Cutler was in the affirmative. Those that voted with Cutler, include some other names prominent in SEO and Ohio University history: Abbot, Browne, Dunlavy, Gatch, Gilman, Goforth, Huntington, Kitchel, Milligan, Paul, Putnam, Reily, Sargent, Updegraff, Wells and Wilson.

Perhaps this is the vote upon which the legend rests?

Another close vote, 19-15, with Cutler in the affirmative, granted black suffrage to those who made a record of their citizenship within a certain time frame.

These were not, though, votes directly on the slavery issue. Those votes were all by fairly lopsided margins against slavery, or in the words of the convention, held as a "servant under the pretense of indenture."

The final words of the Ohio Constitution as passed by the convention on the slavery issue were as follows:

1 -- ". . . Nor shall any indenture of any negro or mulatto, hereafter made and executed out of the State, or if made in the State, where the term of service exceeds one year, be of the least validity, except those given in the case of apprenticeships."

2 -- "There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in this State, otherwise than for punishment of crimes, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted; nor shall any male person, arrived at the age of twenty-one years, or female person arrived at the age of eighteen years, be held to serve any person as a servant, under the pretense of indenture or otherwise, unless such person shall enter into the such indenture while in a state of perfect freedom, and on a condition of bona fide consideration, received or to be received, for their service, except as beforehand excepted." [That exception refers to conviction for crime.]

3 -- And, in a related issue, in the bill of rights section, there were several instances where the word "white" was stricken from the original draft so that the statements applied to all men, not just white men. These tended to be close votes, with Cutler in the affirmative.

In conclusion, this is a very complex subject, which the legend kind of summarizes in an easily understandable way. In that sense, legends may serve a good and useful purpose.

If you want to wade through the proceedings yourself, you an do so at:
https://tinyurl.com/y2pxs45p

If you find any interesting nuggets that I've neglected, or come to different conclusions, please post.

Last Edited: 8/6/2019 12:39:32 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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RSBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 3,947

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/8/2019 10:10:45 PM 
I bought the book after watching this on CSPAN. I have most every book he ever wrote....

https://www.c-span.org/video/?460340-1/david-mccullough-d...


RS Bobcat

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OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 10,322

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/8/2019 10:31:48 PM 
RSBobcat wrote:
I bought the book after watching this on CSPAN. I have most every book he ever wrote....

https://www.c-span.org/video/?460340-1/david-mccullough-d...


I was there in person. It was a huge event for the Ohioana Library, on whose board I am one of four gubernatorial appointees. Hey, buck.cat, some of us old farts still do productive things. ;-)


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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L.C.
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Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 8,974

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 8/27/2019 7:05:19 PM 
I was asked to post a couple links for required reading. The first link is to a review of Smoketown:
http://www.washingtonindependentreviewofbooks.com/index.p...

In particular, notice what's referred to in the ninth paragraph here--the man who led (mostly organizationally and financially, as I recall) the Pittsburgh Black Renaissance left Athens because of the racism he and his wife found there.

The second link I was asked to post was regarding:
Trump's plan to Appalachia: Mountains of plastic, rivers of radioactive waste and billions of Chinese dollars

https://news.yahoo.com/secret-billions-from-china-radioac...


We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak. ― Epictetus

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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,461

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Required Reading
   Posted: 9/23/2019 7:23:30 AM 
Keep forgetting to post this.

In the "Acknowledgements" section of the boss,McCullough talks about getting
the inspiration to write the book when he came to O.U.to give the Commencement
Address for O.U.s 200th Anniversary.
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