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Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......

Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/4/2018 5:03:21 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Day Tripper wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


Why do nearly all mass shootings take place in gun free zones? No opposition. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have 5 to 15 minutes before police arrive and probably 30 minutes or more before they decide to do any thing after they assess the situation if they do any thing at all initially.
How many attacks do you see against police stations or armed military camps?
These attackers might be crazy but they are not stupid. They want to shoot where there is the least resistance. A show of force or a police presence helps deter crime.


How do you define "mass shooting"? And how do you define a "gun free zone"?

There was a mass shooting at Fort Hood and another at the Washington Navy Yard. So, that's two attacks on armed military bases. There was an armed guards at Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, the Mandalay Bay in Vegas, Virginia Tech, and the Pulse Nightclub. And those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is as cut and dry as you seem to think or that armed guards/police are necessarily the deterrent one might think.



Fort Hood and other installations are actually gun free zones, only MP’s carry on base, other ammunition is closely guarded and checked out as needed. And a mass shooting is defined as 3 or more.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/4/2018 5:19:07 PM 
MedinaCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


At Metlife there are always very visible tactical teams.Especially in the bag search area and where the NJ Transit trains drop off/pick up.
They are all N.J. State Police.

I'm sure there are also a bunch of others "in the shadows" not to mention in their Command Center that was expanded for the Super Bowl.

It is interesting that,when there is an event around 9/11 or something similar, you also see military personnel providing security.

We go to West Point for concerts and some sporting events.
Talk about security.
All soldiers,with M-16's
Last time we were there they checked under the car with a mirror,then we had to open the back cargo area and engine compartment.




I grew up at West Point. There didn't used to be such a presence. It was an open campus, and while there was a Military Police officer at every gate, civilians could enter at will without so much as a conversation about where they were headed. It wasn't until security services at West Point were privatized post 9/11 that such precautions were put into place.


I assume the precautions are prescribed by the academy and not a result of the outsourcing. That said, some things should not be outsourced/privatized.


Honestly, I suspect that's sort of half the case.

When I was there, the level of security was directly related to the level of threat. It wasn't uncommon that West Point be a target of threats, and occasionally when the threats were deemed more credible, the MPs would increase security.

My guess is that the private security company they hired doesn't have a security clearance that gives them access to the insight necessary to gauge the threat level, so they treat all days as if the threat level is high in an abundance of caution.

Last Edited: 9/4/2018 5:40:17 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/4/2018 5:22:12 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Day Tripper wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


Why do nearly all mass shootings take place in gun free zones? No opposition. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have 5 to 15 minutes before police arrive and probably 30 minutes or more before they decide to do any thing after they assess the situation if they do any thing at all initially.
How many attacks do you see against police stations or armed military camps?
These attackers might be crazy but they are not stupid. They want to shoot where there is the least resistance. A show of force or a police presence helps deter crime.


How do you define "mass shooting"? And how do you define a "gun free zone"?

There was a mass shooting at Fort Hood and another at the Washington Navy Yard. So, that's two attacks on armed military bases. There was an armed guards at Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, the Mandalay Bay in Vegas, Virginia Tech, and the Pulse Nightclub. And those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is as cut and dry as you seem to think or that armed guards/police are necessarily the deterrent one might think.



Fort Hood and other installations are actually gun free zones, only MP’s carry on base, other ammunition is closely guarded and checked out as needed. And a mass shooting is defined as 3 or more.


So the definition we're using of a "gun free zone" is a place that is patrolled by military police who carry guns? In the context of this conversation, that would also make Peden Stadium a gun free zone, correct? Because the only people carrying were police officers? It would also make such notoriously unsafe locales as the White House and commercial flights 'gun free zones'. Because only Air Marshals and the Secret Service get to carry guns there.

In other words, pretty silly definition. The term 'gun free zone' is a relatively new one -- it dates back to the 90s and was coined by concealed carry advocates, and has nothing to do with police presence or even, oddly, the presence of armed people. All of the examples I listed above in which armed people were tasked with guarding a location where there was a mass shooting are considered 'gun free zones.'


Last Edited: 9/4/2018 5:58:20 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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OhioStunter
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Location: Chicago
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/4/2018 5:22:17 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Day Tripper wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


Why do nearly all mass shootings take place in gun free zones? No opposition. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have 5 to 15 minutes before police arrive and probably 30 minutes or more before they decide to do any thing after they assess the situation if they do any thing at all initially.
How many attacks do you see against police stations or armed military camps?
These attackers might be crazy but they are not stupid. They want to shoot where there is the least resistance. A show of force or a police presence helps deter crime.


How do you define "mass shooting"? And how do you define a "gun free zone"?

There was a mass shooting at Fort Hood and another at the Washington Navy Yard. So, that's two attacks on armed military bases. There was an armed guards at Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, the Mandalay Bay in Vegas, Virginia Tech, and the Pulse Nightclub. And those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is as cut and dry as you seem to think or that armed guards/police are necessarily the deterrent one might think.



Fort Hood and other installations are actually gun free zones, only MP’s carry on base, other ammunition is closely guarded and checked out as needed. And a mass shooting is defined as 3 or more.


While true, I think this further strengthens the point that a show of force/presence of weapons (even with MPs) does not necessarily prevent these terrible incidents from happening.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/4/2018 5:43:05 PM 
.

Last Edited: 9/4/2018 5:43:31 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 1:01:41 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Day Tripper wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


Why do nearly all mass shootings take place in gun free zones? No opposition. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have 5 to 15 minutes before police arrive and probably 30 minutes or more before they decide to do any thing after they assess the situation if they do any thing at all initially.
How many attacks do you see against police stations or armed military camps?
These attackers might be crazy but they are not stupid. They want to shoot where there is the least resistance. A show of force or a police presence helps deter crime.


How do you define "mass shooting"? And how do you define a "gun free zone"?

There was a mass shooting at Fort Hood and another at the Washington Navy Yard. So, that's two attacks on armed military bases. There was an armed guards at Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, the Mandalay Bay in Vegas, Virginia Tech, and the Pulse Nightclub. And those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is as cut and dry as you seem to think or that armed guards/police are necessarily the deterrent one might think.



Fort Hood and other installations are actually gun free zones, only MP’s carry on base, other ammunition is closely guarded and checked out as needed. And a mass shooting is defined as 3 or more.


So the definition we're using of a "gun free zone" is a place that is patrolled by military police who carry guns? In the context of this conversation, that would also make Peden Stadium a gun free zone, correct? Because the only people carrying were police officers? It would also make such notoriously unsafe locales as the White House and commercial flights 'gun free zones'. Because only Air Marshals and the Secret Service get to carry guns there.

In other words, pretty silly definition. The term 'gun free zone' is a relatively new one -- it dates back to the 90s and was coined by concealed carry advocates, and has nothing to do with police presence or even, oddly, the presence of armed people. All of the examples I listed above in which armed people were tasked with guarding a location where there was a mass shooting are considered 'gun free zones.'




Peden is a gun free zone, so was Columbine, Va Tech, Parkland, etc, law enforcement is not considered part of the gun free zone definition, only applies to Joe Citizen. Which, ironically we are saying the same thing, you just chose to argue. And yes, Fort Hood was a gun free zone, and every venue you listed is considered “gun free”. So what is your point?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 6:24:55 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Day Tripper wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
The weapon debate aside, back to the initial post.

I have the pleasure and honor to work with a number special units at Ft. Bragg (they train in a county I help promote - it is not uncommon for hunters and hikers to stumble upon a hidden member of special forces - who subtly show themselves so as not to cause a hunting accident).

Their view - the show of force is not done as a deterrent, as even the most lone wolf does enough homework to understand the protection and firepower in place. In most cases, the police/military are present, but stay out of the main site lines (hence why most do not know they are present at BB games, etc. I know at Panther games (assuming all four gates are handled the same), there are probably 2 dozen heavily armed personnel at each game. But you have to really look to spot them).

The show of power is done more to assure civilians of the protection. It may be done once or twice in the beginning, but then retreats to the shadows. The exception is if those involved want to boost their own testosterone.

I suspect the sentry observed the other day will be back in the shadows next game.


Why do nearly all mass shootings take place in gun free zones? No opposition. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. You would have 5 to 15 minutes before police arrive and probably 30 minutes or more before they decide to do any thing after they assess the situation if they do any thing at all initially.
How many attacks do you see against police stations or armed military camps?
These attackers might be crazy but they are not stupid. They want to shoot where there is the least resistance. A show of force or a police presence helps deter crime.


How do you define "mass shooting"? And how do you define a "gun free zone"?

There was a mass shooting at Fort Hood and another at the Washington Navy Yard. So, that's two attacks on armed military bases. There was an armed guards at Stoneman Douglas, Columbine, the Mandalay Bay in Vegas, Virginia Tech, and the Pulse Nightclub. And those are just off the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is as cut and dry as you seem to think or that armed guards/police are necessarily the deterrent one might think.



Fort Hood and other installations are actually gun free zones, only MP’s carry on base, other ammunition is closely guarded and checked out as needed. And a mass shooting is defined as 3 or more.


So the definition we're using of a "gun free zone" is a place that is patrolled by military police who carry guns? In the context of this conversation, that would also make Peden Stadium a gun free zone, correct? Because the only people carrying were police officers? It would also make such notoriously unsafe locales as the White House and commercial flights 'gun free zones'. Because only Air Marshals and the Secret Service get to carry guns there.

In other words, pretty silly definition. The term 'gun free zone' is a relatively new one -- it dates back to the 90s and was coined by concealed carry advocates, and has nothing to do with police presence or even, oddly, the presence of armed people. All of the examples I listed above in which armed people were tasked with guarding a location where there was a mass shooting are considered 'gun free zones.'




Peden is a gun free zone, so was Columbine, Va Tech, Parkland, etc, law enforcement is not considered part of the gun free zone definition, only applies to Joe Citizen. Which, ironically we are saying the same thing, you just chose to argue. And yes, Fort Hood was a gun free zone, and every venue you listed is considered “gun free”. So what is your point?


To refute the poster I replied to, who insisted such shows of force deterred shootings without providing any such evidence.

Last Edited: 9/5/2018 7:36:11 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 1:45:57 PM 
Interesting thread indeed, and I always enjoy when folks declare their opinion as fact/irrefutable, when by definition, an opinion isn't a fact, and conversely, facts are not opinions, but I digress.

Related to the subject of the thread, my opinion is as follows, as I don't have kids like the Love, and have a clearly different perspective and different concerns over influences:

I HATE what has become of TSA at airports, and the drudgery of travel via airplanes today, however I do understand that it is with the best interests of all 150+ passengers flying in the aluminum tube with me (plus those on the ground) that I suffer considerable inconvenience versus what I used to have to go through pre-9-11.

The same holds true for public safety at major gatherings with the ever expanding threat from mass shootings and other nefarious deeds. Increased security at these events will be with us forever. Then related to Saturday, I consider if some disgruntled individual wanted to rush the field at halftime with some form of mass destruction, when all the high school bands were on the field, along with the fans standing in the east stands watching that display. Easily 1,000 people on the field in extremely close proximity plus likely five to six thousand people standing as easy targets for a rogue combatant against whom to take out their beefs. If I were in attendance on Saturday, my inconvenience from the gate staff and armed police force would have been far less intrusive TO ME than what I go through at an airport for a threat that is potentially, proportionally far less than what is possible at a large sporting event. But that's just me.

Last Edited: 9/5/2018 1:54:13 PM by D.A.


The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC."  Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

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Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 7:28:21 PM 
D.A. wrote:


I HATE what has become of TSA at airports, and the drudgery of travel via airplanes today, however I do understand that it is with the best interests of all 150+ passengers flying in the aluminum tube with me (plus those on the ground) that I suffer considerable inconvenience versus what I used to have to go through pre-9-11.




This guy who flies every day for a living disagrees with you.

http://www.askthepilot.com/essaysandstories/terminal-madness /

As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? We're all too eager to accept a militaristic presence and authoritarian rules everywhere in this country.
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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 7:54:07 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
D.A. wrote:


I HATE what has become of TSA at airports, and the drudgery of travel via airplanes today, however I do understand that it is with the best interests of all 150+ passengers flying in the aluminum tube with me (plus those on the ground) that I suffer considerable inconvenience versus what I used to have to go through pre-9-11.




This guy who flies every day for a living disagrees with you.

http://www.askthepilot.com/essaysandstories/terminal-madness /

As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? We're all too eager to accept a militaristic presence and authoritarian rules everywhere in this country.


Good point, thank you.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 8:07:42 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.


"When two men always agree, one of them is unnecessary." William Wrigley

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 10:06:39 PM 
Meanwhile 3 rapes on Athens campus in over 1 week. Maybe we should return to community policing initiates instead of writing traffic tickets and buying armored vehicles.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 11:52:56 PM 
While we all may have differing opinions about this, I think it comes down to what seems reasonable when it comes to event security. I was at the Ohio-UNC football game back in 95 and both endzones had state troopers lined up along the end line -- almost shoulder to shoulder for the whole game.

That seemed a little much, but probably did the job as a visual deterrent without being too threatening.

I'm not sure a cop with a machine gun greeting people at the main entrance does the same thing -- otherwise, we'd not be discussing this. More than one person here feels this way and I'm sure others who don't visit this board probably are thinking the same thing.

I'm fine with a bag search/metal detector and a heavy police presence, but there's something about the show of high-powered weapons at the door that seems unnecessary to me.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/5/2018 11:58:59 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Meanwhile 3 rapes on Athens campus in over 1 week. Maybe we should return to community policing initiates instead of writing traffic tickets and buying armored vehicles.


Sounds like this is news that needs released to every high school in Ohio. So based on that, if I had a daughter she would likely not be attending Ohio and wherever she would carry mace and a 9 mm. Jefferson, "keep your guns close and maintain your proficiency with them." Surprising to some, given instruction, young ladies gain proficiency more quickly than young men.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 12:33:57 AM by Bcat2


"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 7:53:15 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 8:22:02 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Meanwhile 3 rapes on Athens campus in over 1 week. Maybe we should return to community policing initiates instead of writing traffic tickets and buying armored vehicles.


BRING BACK THE NOISE ORDINANCE!


I've seen crazier things happen.

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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 10:20:36 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
D.A. wrote:


I HATE what has become of TSA at airports, and the drudgery of travel via airplanes today, however I do understand that it is with the best interests of all 150+ passengers flying in the aluminum tube with me (plus those on the ground) that I suffer considerable inconvenience versus what I used to have to go through pre-9-11.




This guy who flies every day for a living disagrees with you.

http://www.askthepilot.com/essaysandstories/terminal-madness /

As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? We're all too eager to accept a militaristic presence and authoritarian rules everywhere in this country.

I'm flattered he disagrees with the fact that I have accepted today's heightened security, regardless of whether or not it is actually a deterrent. I'm willing to allow him his opinion also.


The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC."  Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 11:46:44 AM 
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


"When two men always agree, one of them is unnecessary." William Wrigley

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 12:08:48 PM 
Sam bobcat wrote:

Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence.


This relies on several assumptions:

1.There is only one police officer in the area,"assault" weapon or not.

2.You are able to "surprise" that officer before he can react.

3.You are using a weapon that can penetrate a bullet "proof" vest or are a good
enough shot to hit him/her in an unprotected area.

More likely, the shooter goes down,killing spree prevented.




Last Edited: 9/6/2018 12:10:12 PM by rpbobcat

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 12:17:53 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 12:33:57 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.


You make the point for more/better armed security.


"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 1:18:37 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.


You make the point for more/better armed security.



Actually I read the point as too many people have access to too many guns and that assault weapons have absolutely no place in civilized society.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 1:56:39 PM 
I've disagreed with BLSOS before, but I agree on this point -- armed security is not necessarily the deterrent many people think it is. Of the top 10 mass shootings in U.S. history, 5 of the venues had armed security present. While I do believe armed security is important -- and CAN be a deterrent -- it is not a guarantee of safety. And I've not seen any evidence that upgrading the weaponry of security increases the likelihood of thwarting an incident.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 1:57:15 PM by OhioStunter

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 2:08:52 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Sam bobcat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Recovering Journalist wrote:
...
As to your other scenario, do you really think a heavily armed cop is a deterrent for someone on a suicide mission? ...

Obviously, yes. If all the person wanted to do was to commit suicide, they could easily do that in the privacy of their own home. These people don't become mass shooters in a spur of the moment decision. They plan it out. They don't want to pull out their gun, and be shot before they manage to kill anyone. Therefore they pick places where a large number of potential victims can be found, and less chance of being stopped quickly.



Or they would just shoot the one cop with the assault rifle first. Deterrent eliminated. Killing spree can now commence. And no offense meant, but how did you get inside the heads of mass shooters to the point you know what they want and how they plan their crimes? Seems a little much LC.

Can you give me an example of a killing spree that started by taking on a heavily armed policeman?


The Columbine shooters had a shootout with an on campus police officer. The Navy Yard shooting began with the armed guard being shot. At the Pulse Nightclub, there was an off-duty police officer working as an armed guard who was shot and killed.

It's not always the deterrent one would think.


You make the point for more/better armed security.



No, you made that point.

I think there are far wiser approaches to attempting to solve the problem of mass shootings than accepting their inevitability and placing heavily armed security personnel everywhere Americans gather.

Last Edited: 9/6/2018 2:10:08 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DelBobcat
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,104

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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/6/2018 2:28:36 PM 
Especially prescient given today's events... No gun free zones are not the problem:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/no-mass-shoo... /


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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