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Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

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cbus cat fan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/8/2017 11:19:17 PM

Uncle Wes brings up the point about gentrification and the allure of urban living for young people with regard to their college experience. However popular that idea may be now, it doesn't mean that future generations will feel the same way. We are being told that Generation Z (those who are entering college now and will be for some time) are quite different than their older millennial brothers and sisters. They have different views concerning college options and debt, politics and perhaps life in general. This is not new. Each generation and the one after that is always different that previous ones.

The other day a fellow co-worker and I commented on the building boom via the many construction cranes visible in downtown Columbus. I mused aloud what would happen if future young--single people became enamored with country or suburban living?

Athens has unique character and certainly charm. It may not be for everyone, especially if urban living is your preference. Ohio State or Cincinnati may be for those who want that in a state school. However, are there really a lot of prospective students who think Wright State, Toledo, Akron or Bowling Green has more charm than Athens?

Last Edited: 8/8/2017 11:20:55 PM by cbus cat fan

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/9/2017 12:50:32 AM

More data to chew on. UCLA has the highest faculty salary of any public school with UC Berkeley #2. UC Santa Barbara is #4 and UC Irvine is #5. The University System of Ohio is significantly further down the list. 90% of UC Davis is 171,000 or 20% above the OU average. It would cost OU 5.9 million and Cincinnati 6.2 million a year to move those averages up to 171k. To move up to 200k for OU 12.0 million, UC 21.3 million and OSU 22.3 million. Benefits might add another 40-50% to the lifetime cost.

http://faculty-salaries.startclass.com /

Yearly Salary Full Professor (# of full profs)
UCLA 246,009 (1,568)
UC Berkeley 234,160 (876)
UC Santa Barbara 214,442 (511)
UC Irvine 212,902 (792)
UC San Diego 208,899 (1,069)
UC Riverside 193,254 (329)
UC Davis 190,517 (1,134)

Ohio State 179,811 (1,114)
Cincinnati 159,120 (520)
Miami 155,109 (223)
Akron 148,149 (231)
Wright St 147,982 (226)
Ohio 142,909 (211)
Cleveland St 139,253 (125)
BG 138,025 (158)
Toledo 133,765 (170)
Youngstown St. 117,731 (128)
*Marshall 102,352 (242)

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

DelBobcat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/9/2017 1:10:32 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

I think there is an opportunity for the university and Athens to promote the city as "urban-lite." As someone who lives in one of the largest cities in the US and very much fits the bill of "millennial enamored with urban living" I can tell you that it's not the sheer size of the city that is attractive to our generation. It's the scale, walkability, and convenience. Athens has those things. You can live there without a car. You can go see a musical, a comedy show, or live music. You can spend a night on the town and walk home safely. The Court Street area has the same feel as many big city neighborhoods. It's all the better that you can quickly get out of town and into nature (another thing that millennials love). To me, UC and OSU don't provide the "big city" campus feel. When I think of that I think of Columbia, NYU, Penn, etc. Columbus may be technically a big city with almost a million residents but it is a very spread out city and feels very suburban. It's definitely gotten better and will continue to do so but it's not there yet in my opinion. Cincinnati feels more urban with its dense urban core and Downtown/OTR are getting better everyday, but the area around UC is not the desirable part of the city. McMillan and Calhoun Streets have really become more urban and walkable over the past decade or so and Short Vine continues to get better too but the neighborhood as a whole isn't really that walkable or convenient. In contrast, I pretty much lived the same urban lifestyle in Athens as I do in Center City Philadelphia.

Last Edited: 8/9/2017 1:11:56 PM by DelBobcat

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/9/2017 2:58:01 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/9/2017 4:00:18 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

143K in Athens is 256K in LA and 382K in Berkeley.

Last Edited: 8/9/2017 4:01:53 PM by Alan Swank

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/9/2017 8:17:59 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

When OSU posts an average ACT of 29 because that freshman class is so large those it the bottom 10th percentile don't have nearly the scores. My guess that if anyone has a 25 on the ACT going to a OSU branch campus they likely didn't have the grades to earn a scholarship anywhere else. I don't think as many of those types even are sitting at OSU branch campuses at OUPride makes it to be. If they love OSU football that much they can go to Akron and watch them on TV in the dorms.

Of course the bottom 10% doesn't have the scores. That's why they're the bottom 10%. The question is what the bottom 10% does have or conversely how large is the pool of low achieving students. At OSU last Fall, 6% were 18-23. Or in a freshman class of 7800, that's 468 students against 3822 with a 30+. At Ohio, 46% of the class is 18-23 and 1% is 17 or lower. That's 2021 students under 24 as opposed to 300 at 30+.

Looking at their branch campuses, there are a lot of kids who would be in the top half at Ohio that Ohio should be trying to recruit.

Newark: 38% 24-29 and 3% 30+ (????)
Mansfield: 36% and 3%
Marion: 38% and 3%

What is the enrollment of the 3 branch campuses? Do you have a data source that also includes average GPA. Its ACT+GPA that decides if you are getting into college. The example where 6% are below 23 on the ACT. They probably had 3.8+ GPAs. If the average GPA at OSU branch campuses is a 3.5 you might be onto to something but I suspect its a 3.2 so you are talking about more of a BG student. Price is also a driver for some of those kids at Marion and Mansfield.

If you look at class rank, the four OSU branches have 5-7 percent in the top tenth and 25% percent in the top quarter of their high school class. Total freshmen at all four campuses last year was roughly 2400 students. So, assuming that all the students in the top quarter of their HS class also were 24+ ACT scorers, that's at least 600 freshmen going to OSU branch campuses who would be in the top half of Ohio's freshmen class. That's a big pool of students who could move Ohio's numbers forward. Should recruiting them be Ohio's top priority? No. Should it be a priority, particularly in a time of declining high school graduates? I would argue yes.

Another interesting stat that jumped out at me looking at their common data sets. OSU's freshman class last year was 7800 students. So I checked Michigan's, and it was 5800. While Michigan's class has 72% with 30+ ACTs compared to only 49% at Ohio State, the raw numbers aren't that far off--4100 to 3800. If OSU lopped off the bottom 2K students that they're now allowing in, they'd literally have a class profile roughly equal to Michigan or Berkeley. McDavis' talk about equaling OSU in admissions isn't going to happen. It sounded good to hear it, but it was empty boasting.

cbus cat fan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/10/2017 9:52:35 PM

I think Del Bobcat made some good points about Athens being "Urban Lite." Hopefully there are a few administrators of our beloved university checking out these posts. There is some good information to be gleaned here. The intricate process that has evolved into the selection of a higher education institute by high school students involving a boat load of info, data analytics, and college selection firms charging healthy amounts of money, just boggles the mind.

I don't know if anyone else had the same experience but I graduated from high school in the early 80s. I believe I was accepted by our beloved alma mater, Dayton and Ohio State in November or December without these three schools having seen my ACT scores. I wasn't scheduled to take the ACT until the spring, and I am not sure I ever did. I was a good student but was not in the Top 10% of my class. I went to a small rural Catholic high school that was well regarded, but it certainly didn't have the notoriety of a St. Ignatius or St. Charles.

Yet, after I qualified as a regional finalist for the State History Exam given by the History Department of our beloved university, I was asked to come down again to meet with the Chairs of the Political Science and History Department and that impressed me. If I remember right, tuition back then was $5,000 room and board. Most of my high school friends went to Dayton and I liked that school a lot, but Ohio gave me a $1,000 scholarship and that helped because my parents could only pay for $2,000, so with me paying $2,000 it all seemed manageable. It seemed easy to understand and a lot more personal than what I hear is happening now. I will be facing it soon enough with my kids, but it all seemed so much simpler back then.

Last Edited: 8/10/2017 10:06:57 PM by cbus cat fan

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/10/2017 11:18:44 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

143K in Athens is 256K in LA and 382K in Berkeley.

This is true. My youngest daughter teaches at Cal Poly at San Luis Obispo. She makes a good salary that at OHIO, where she interviewed two years ago for a job she didn't get, would be a small fortune. However, in SLO the best housing she and her husband can afford is a relative small condo. When my daughter interviewed for the job at Cal Poly I talked with Bob Glidden who served as interim president there for about a year. The first thing he told me was how beautiful the area was and what a nice school Cal Poly was. The second thing he told me was about the high cost of living and how most young faculty could not afford to live in SLO and, therefore, lived out in the country where housing was slightly less expensive.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/11/2017 9:29:47 AM

cbus cat fan wrote:

For those prospective students who have a connection to Athens (parents who may know someone here), the experience can be equally rewarding. I've called professors and deans to set up tours and interviews for prospective students and answered lots of phone calls from parents whose children have enrolled here asking for help and advice. For those who know who to ask, when to ask and what to ask, the outcomes are very positive. But because college is such a new experience for many families, it's a bit of a crap shoot hence the whole college selection industry that cbus cat fan has alluded to.

Mike Johnson
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/11/2017 10:03:56 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

143K in Athens is 256K in LA and 382K in Berkeley.

I have friends - a mother and daughter - who both live in the Corona del Mar section of Newport Beach. They are real estate agents. I was visiting them last month. Went to an open house they were hosting. House has view of Pacific. Asking price: $15 million - and it will be teardown.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

The Optimist
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/13/2017 2:15:37 AM

Mike Johnson wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

143K in Athens is 256K in LA and 382K in Berkeley.

coastal elites

I've seen crazier things happen.

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 12:24:17 AM

Not really on the coastal elites statement. A house on Morris Avenue in Athens just went for 300K that was purchased just 3 years ago for 170K. There's a house on Maplewood now listed at 350K. In certain places in Athens and around the country, housing prices are just plain crazy.

The Optimist
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 11:53:19 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

I tried to pull up a comparable 300k house in Berkeley...

There aren't any...

Cheapest on Zillow? A 400k condo.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Berkeley-CA/16992_r... /

Coastal. Elites.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Ohio69
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 12:27:05 PM

The Optimist wrote:

Coastal. Elites.

I do not live on a coast (although I once did), nor am I elite. But, I know many who fit the description. And, all of them took life seriously early on, did well in school, busted ass work-wise, and ended up fairly successful. What's not to like about those people again? Seems to me we need way more of those types around here in opiod land. But, we digress....

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Mike Johnson
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 1:06:17 PM

The Optimist wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

There is no place in Ohio that's as expensive to live as those places. Making 200k in some areas of California makes you slightly above homeless.

143K in Athens is 256K in LA and 382K in Berkeley.

coastal elites

Not to get into Clintonesque parsing - as in define 'is' - but your use of "coastal elites" strikes me as painting with an overly broad brush. Let me relate a few anecdotes.
* I friend named Lad bought a house in Malibu in the 1960s. He paid about $30,000. He lived there for decades while working his career as a journalist. In the end he sold it for millions. Doesn't strike me as elite.
* One of my high school classmates - Larry - bought a home in San Jose. In the early 70s he bought it for $32,000. I've visited him a couple times. It's nice or what we might call a 3-bedroom starter ranch. Larry spent his career at Lockheed Martin. He's retired now and when selling he'll receive millions. But elite? Don't think so.
* My woman friend - the Newport Beach realtor - is 85. Still working. Her house was built in 1959. She bought it in 1976. Or before area home prices began soaring. She has decided to downsize and is moving to a nearby condo. She'll get millions for her house - and will pay millions for her condo. Elite? Not in my book.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 11:18:26 PM

Its mostly luck to be in an area with huge population growth that spawns the next big global industry and with a country that has a monetary policy to allow the flow of cheap money. In Ohio the last 3-4 decades you didn't get that for the most part.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 11:47:20 PM

OUPride wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

cbus cat fan wrote:

Uncle Wes, interesting to note concerning endowments on the private side; Case Western Reserve is at nearly 2 billion, while Oberlin (undergrad around 3,000) and tiny Dennison (undergrad slightly more than 2,000) both have endowments that are around 300 million more than our beloved alma mater.

https://www.collegeraptor.com/college-rankings/details/En...

Ive said before that if OU was founded in Cuyahoga county instead of Athens county it would have been on a trajectory to be a Top 10 public university. An elite student profile that OUPride wants I dont think is realistic in SE Ohio. I would be happy with UC/SUNY type first tier branding and 26-27 ACT.

That's actually what I also see as realistic. Once set free from forced open admissions, nobody was going to stay with osu. They just have too many resources and too many weapons with which to recruit. It was in today's Dispatch that they raised over 500 last year, and 58M of it is going into endowed funds that support undergrad financial aid.

What I expect of Ohio is to maintain its undergraduate advantage over Cincinnati and to at least stay competitive with Miami. And, to sound like a broken record, McDavis failed to position us for that goal.

Another consideration in increasing the quality and number of faculty is having the office space for them. OU investing into a new facility in Athens should help. A large and growing endowment helps support research.

https://www.ohio.edu/medicine/about/news-and-events/news-...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

cbus cat fan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/14/2017 11:49:18 PM

Uncle Wes, unfortunately the lucky part for southeast Ohio came in the logging rush before the Civil War, but the money they made was a pittance of what it could have been. There were new settlers coming and lots of demand for timber in the growing East as well. Some southeast Ohio counties reached their population peak before the Civil War. I believe Monroe was one of them.

The only reason they filmed in Hollywood in the very early days of film making was to complete movies in the winter months. After a few winters spent in the Hollywood Hills, the powers that be said goodbye to New York and Chicago, the old movie making hubs, and set up shop out west.

Silicon Valley took off in the 1970s because of places like Stanford and Cal Berkeley, there was a natural research style setting already in place and had been so since the Second World War. The warmer weather east of the cool Bay Area helped draw people as well. Athens got its break at the very wrong time, while the other aforementioned locations had perfect timing (or so it seems.)

Last Edited: 8/14/2017 11:52:32 PM by cbus cat fan

The Optimist
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 10:13:07 AM

"Coastal Elite" is a media term. It's a media term I've happily adapted using after growing up in Northeast Ohio listening to people on TV talk about how the "Rust Belt" and the Midwest in general is such a terrible, dirty place filled with uneducated people. Going to school in Appalachia further reinforced just how negatively a good chunk of society looks at where I choose to call home.

Ohio69 wrote:

I know a lot of smart people who have never touched opioids, who have busted ass in their careers and have made a life for themselves and their families. Funny story, they don't live on the coasts, they live in what you describe as "opiod land."
I know a lot of extremely successful people in Middle America who view speaking in "Clintonesque parsing" as a way for people to sound smart without actually having practical knowledge.

While not everyone from California looks down on Middle America, a very good percentage of the people on the coasts have bought up the media's narrative about how terrible this part of the country is.

...

I'm a hard working 27-year old who works for a tech company. No, I don't work in the Silicon Valley. I'm just a kid from Akron and I'm very happy with Ohio's current mix of hard-working kids from the Midwest with a smaller mix of national and internal students. I have ZERO interest in this University turning into an enclave for elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Robert Fox
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 10:47:28 AM

The Optimist wrote:

I have ZERO interest in this University turning into an enclave for elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Huzzah!

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 11:51:45 AM

The Optimist wrote:

I have ZERO interest in this University turning into an enclave for elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Yes, because all of those elites graduating from elite colleges never, ever manage to apply those educations in the real world, do they? It's so hard to find graduates of elite colleges in corporate boardrooms, blue chip law firms, research labs, and elite areas of the government like the State Department, CIA or NASA. They are literally never there.

Nobody is arguing that Ohio is going to turn into Princeton, nor should it.....nor could it. It should always work hard to maintain a large degree of socio-economic diversity in its student body. The question is what kind of public university it should be. Attracting the best qualified student body that it can and remaining competitive with UC and Miami, if not OSU, is not trying to turn Ohio into an elite enclave. It's about keeping it competitive and ensuring that the school maintains a good reputation in and outside of Ohio.

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 12:37:05 PM

This is the biggest challenge the school faces. It's not football where we havent had a losing season in 10 years. Its not funding where OU is at all time records. Campus is on schedule for more renovations. They have to make progress in attracting top students. New medical, natural sciences and engineering buildings in the next 5 years will help.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

The Optimist
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 3:13:37 PM

OUPride wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

I have ZERO interest in this University turning into an enclave for elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Throughout this thread, you've had an obsession with bashing McDavis because his policy didn't cater to "elite" students who would've raised class profiles. I could not disagree more with your view on the past decade or our current class profile. What you call the "lost decade" was actually an incredibly successful decade for this school.

The past 10 years have seen record applications year after year from people hoping to enroll at Ohio University. Our freshman class enrollment in Athens set records year after year as the largest in the history of the school. We didn't lower standards to achieve this growth; our entrance requirements remained fairly consistent with reasonable increases in test scores and GPAs. We also didn't allow our enrollment growth to surge to levels where sophomores were forced out of the dorms due to a lack of housing like has happened at so many other schools. A healthy growth rate and consistent "selectiveness" in admissions is exactly the approach every college should take during a "baby boom." Vast changes to the demographic makeup of your University when you can easily forecast national trends is reckless. From my view, Ohio's actions over the past decade were healthy, well-planned and sustainable moving forward.

...

I think the typical student at Ohio University today is very similar to what it was in prior decades well before McDavis. In addition to statistical and demographic data supporting this, I look at my own personal experience at Ohio University from 2008-2012 and compare it with my parents who attended in the early 70's and late 80's and see a lot of similarities.
We could devote entire threads to discussing the flaws of test scores and GPAs to define "elite" students. I could offer interesting personal insights on both of those issues along with the curriculum focus at both the grade school and college levels.
Without diving into those rabbit holes, I will say that Ohio University has done a very good job balancing growth and changing times without losing the character that makes Ohio University and Athens unique. Much of the value for Ohio University is the learning that happens outside the classroom. The current student body demographics contribute to that setting.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/16/2017 4:46:00 PM

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

I'm from Akron too and have a totally different perspective. Of course I'm 35 years older too. Where did you graduate from in Akron?

Ohio69
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/17/2017 8:31:16 AM

The Optimist wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Touche'!

Pretty well done. Except now you reply to my reply against a broad brush term (coastal elites) with several broad brushes or your own and a mythical creature: elites who are not capable of applying their education to the real world.

Oh well. F**k it dude, lets go bowling.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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