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Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Topic: RE: Nellis planning public input forums

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C Money
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/3/2017 1:29:16 PM

OUPride wrote:

Let's see. Say you limit the program to 500 students. That means you're admitting 125 every year at in-state cost of attendance ($27K) times 4 years is 125 $108K scholarships given out annually ($13.5M). Assuming a 4.5% annual disbursement from an endowed fund, that works out to right around a $300M donation. Higher if you want to have some out of state students included.

Nah. Can't remember exactly how we figured it, but it was about $2 million a year that was needed. This was 8-10 years ago, so call it $3 million today. Doable on a $300 million jackpot.

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/3/2017 1:36:07 PM

3 million in annual full cost of attendance would fund a program of 111 students or 28 incoming every year (all in-state). That's the 3M cost every year. To have an endowed fund that would disburse that amount every year, you have to multiply by 22.5 to get to the required endowment. So even that 3M annual cost requires an endowment donation of $67.5 million.

Or roughly 4 years of athletic subsidies [/ducks & covers]

Last Edited: 8/3/2017 1:53:12 PM by OUPride

mf279801
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/3/2017 1:46:23 PM

OUPride wrote:

C Money wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Ohio should really promote the Oxbridge based tutorial model of the program to differentiate itself from similar programs at OSU/Miami. I also remember that it's always been a relatively small program. I'd like to know more as to whether that's a function of choice, of available resources and funding and/or of the overall applicant pool from which to choose. Last year, we had 7% at 30+ACT and 15% in top 10% of HS class.

I had this very discussion with former HTC Asst. Dean Jan Hodson. The consultants were saying abandon it because no one else does it. I said absolutely not, precisely because no one else does it.

My understanding is that the size limitation is primarily a function of resources--specifically, merit based scholarships. Former Dean Fidler had an open offer that anyone who would donate enough to give every HTC student a full ride academic scholarship would have the college named after them. I've had a portion of my future Powerball winnings earmarked ever since.

Much smaller than 500 students. I graduated a few years ago now, but I don't think the size is dramatically different when I was there. Probably about 120-150 total enrollment is in the right ballpark.

The other aspect in which resources are limiting is the tutorial system, which requires significant buy-in from professors in the respective academic departments for those one-on-one tutorials (in my experience, professors were delighted to be involved in this, but it was still significant extra work on their part for what was in effect volunteer/uncompensated duty).

C Money
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/3/2017 2:04:30 PM

OUPride wrote:

IIRC, we were also taking into consideration that students would receive other aid, so the endowment fund would not have to cover the full cost.

$17.5 million is the number that sticks in my mind as what it was going to take....but that was me as a young, overconfident, recent business grad thinking I could manage the money myself and average a 12% return.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/3/2017 3:32:43 PM

OUPride wrote:

. . . I know an older OSU alum who said at his freshman orientation in the early 70s, they told everyone to look at the person to your left and to your right and then said that one of you three won't be back next year.

That's exactly what my wife was told in her freshman orientation at OHIO back in the fall of 1964. She loves to tell that story.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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74 Cat
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 6:53:04 AM

My daughter went to Rose Hulman in Terre Haute. At her freshman orientation, they did the look left/right routine. The difference there was it was said that they expected all three of the students to graduate.

That school was all about the student. Profs taught every class (no teaching assistants except in labs). In the labs,the prof still did the instructing. The T.A.s were there to assist students with the lab work.

Some profs gave out their phone numbers. Students could call up to midnight if they needed help.

My daughter played soccer there. It is a D-3 school so there are no scholarships. It is done by grants, etc. However, before the start of the soccer season, the head coach called me. He politely told me that if I needed to reduce tuition, the person to call was...I did and it was. After that happened, I got a second phone call and was told if I needed tuition reduced the person to call now was...

The coach also told the players parents/caregivers that if their player was having academic issues, the coaching staff would be contacted by the academic faculty. The coaches were responsible for finding a tutor. The coaching staff also told us that they knew that the players on the team were at school to be engineers, not soccer players so if a class project got in the way of practice, there were no laps to run and no game time missed.

It was truly an amazing place.

While naturally I would have wanted to see my daughter as a Bobcat, realistically, she would not have played D-1 soccer. Additionally, by the time I got done fooling around with financial packages, it was less expensive to go to Rose than to go the Russ College at Ohio.

Robert Fox
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 8:53:52 AM

74 Cat wrote:

My daughter went to Rose Hulman...

Thanks for posting this. I gave Rose Hulman serious consideration for my son who wanted to play college football but couldn't quite make the D1 level. He also wanted to study engineering, so Rose seemed like a good potential fit. In the end, he wanted to be an OU student so that's the direction he took.

In hindsight, it makes me wonder if we made the right choice. He's happy where he is, but I wonder about what seems like improved academic engagement from the smaller D3 schools. It looks very appealing.

On the other hand, my daughter is playing D1 soccer and it is a job. She is enjoying her experience but we still wonder about how she might have enjoyed a D3 experience. She did look at multiple D3 opportunities, but in the end was lured by the D1 mystique.

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 1:24:12 PM

Smaller universities have time for more personalized attention. Another reason why a 10% cut to the freshman class would be a good thing. Also it allows OU to cancel plans to build additional dorms and saves on energy resources. I think 16,000 undergraduate is plenty big enough for SE Ohio. Its about 17,500 now. If they want bigger enrollment grow the graduate student population.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 1:42:57 PM

I looked at Rose-Hulman's stats. They have a phenomenal 94% retention rate. The 6 year graduation rate really isn't all that good at 72%, but I don't think that's a case of them failing but rather deciding in Sophomore year that engineering is not for them and transferring out. At more comprehensive universities, those kids would just transfer to another major within the school.

As for why Ohio should move away from accepting a lot of kids with low test scores, the reasons are several. First of all, quality attracts quality. A lot of high ability kids (and their parents) do not want to consider a school that's easy to get into. We can talk about what our scores were and how many people we knew had 30+, but the reality is that only 7% of last year's class was in that category as opposed to 49% at OSU and 33% at Miami. And Ohio doesn't have a big time AAU/Engineering/Science reputation to attract them regardless, as OSU did in its open admission period. Secondly, those low test score kids are a drag on retention rates and graduation rates, which negatively impact both the USNWR rankings (criticize it all you want, but it's the 1st impression of a university for millions of kids and parents every year). And now with the University System of Ohio, it negatively impacts funding as state money is now a combination of basic headcount and output factors of which freshman retention and graduation rates are primary.

Unfortunately, I think demographic trends make this goal immeasurably harder. Nellis seems to be saying as much when he says that he doesn't plan on increasing admission standards. The time to have done this was during the last decade when the number of graduating seniors in Ohio was steadily increasing, and McDavis utterly dropped the ball.

Last Edited: 8/4/2017 1:45:35 PM by OUPride

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 1:53:48 PM

I would market ourselves as part of the University of Ohio System. Ohio isnt a state where you have 1 land grant university with everything else in the second tier. That would tie is more to Ohio State and our STEM class offerings should match OSU in quality. Then as a historic four corners university in that system along with Miami, Kent and BG it ties OU to Miami. I'd market the medical, engineering, communications, honors tutorial and fulbright achievements. Market OU like its a heavier academic university the same academic quality as OSU. Bobcat promise markets to graduate middle class students. Makes it more difficult to attract serious academic students. Think University of California system. There is Cal and UCLA but the others UC Davis, UC Riverside are highly regarded.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 2:28:16 PM

OUPride wrote:

As for why Ohio should move away from accepting a lot of kids with low test scores, the reasons are several. First of all, quality attracts quality. A lot of high ability kids (and their parents) do not want to consider a school that's easy to get into. We can talk about what our scores were and how many people we knew had 30+, but the reality is that only 7% of last year's class was in that category as opposed to 49% at OSU and 33% at Miami.

The sad thing is the amount of students over 30 was 11-12% twenty years ago so its moved backwards in perception. I remember when I was looking at engineering schools 20-25 years ago Ohio State offered a better package than Ohio which at the time was easier to get into. I never thought OSU would blow by us in reputation. At this point I would be happy with 25% 30+. Nellis is bragging about our ranking as the 74th best public school. When I was a fresh we were ranked 37th. I do like some of construction plans. Knocking out new south and building west green together was good. Clippenger is getting an overhaul and a new medical school building is on the way. I do not see the point of spending 100 milllion on another dorm so we can bring more students with a 23 ACT in and further crowd the library and dining halls.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 2:46:26 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Interesting that you brought up the UC system. I've always argued in these threads that is the direction they need to move the University System of Ohio to end the empire building. Of course, that means one has to accept that OSU is acknowledged as the Berkeley of the system. The real goal is to ensure that Ohio is one of the other UC schools rather than a Cal State school. And I think Ohio certainly has every right both historical and current to make that cut.

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/4/2017 3:00:25 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Smaller universities have time for more personalized attention.

And on what do you base this statement?

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/5/2017 2:26:02 PM

OUPride wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

A lot of it has to do with faculty pay levels. Ohio State's average faculty pay is in line with the University of California schools. Ohio's pay plan for faculty was to ensure it stays among the top 3 in pay within Ohio but the pay is about 30% below OSU (which has a ton more faculty to pay for). The state should make a plan to give the four corner universities additional money for the purpose of faculty pay to get them within the 90th percentile of the University of California salaries. With Bowling Green State specifically it could use a rebranding University of Ohio at Bowling Green (UOBG). For example student with a 2.5 and 25 ACT with dreams of going to OSU business school to make a lot of money trying to transfer in from OSU Marion could do better for themselves by going to UOBG and receive an education of comparable quality. They could be the UC Santa Barbra of the system. Ohio, Miami and Kent State would keep their names but get more dollars for faculty. UC, Toledo, Akron, Wright, YSU and Cleveland State should remain as STEM access schools.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/5/2017 2:57:29 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Smaller universities have time for more personalized attention.

And on what do you base this statement?

Smaller student to faculty ratios. Its a positive factor in the USNWR. Obviously the mindset has to be there for the faculty to serve the students. A lot of the students at OU that I knew picked OU over private universities because it had a liberal arts setting but being 4-5 times larger had more resources and better student organizations. They were not looking for a place that is over crowded. The whole move by OU to increase enrollment was originally a bulwark against having to take cuts in graduate programs. An attempt to paint a picture that Ohio is a flagship state university. With the University System of Ohio centers of excellence in place graduate cuts are no longer a threat. I do think maintaining at least 15,000 undergraduates is an important psychological level between a smaller and mid sized public university. 15,500 to 16,000 is a good range for OU.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

cbus cat fan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 9:41:14 AM

Totally agree Uncle Wes 15,000-16,000 is a good figure. The branch campus model is definitely going to have come under some rethinking in the coming years. Lots of Ohio State main campus wannabees end up in Marion or Mansfield for a while and they may never be accepted into the college they want. Columbus State promises acceptance into any Ohio public university after completing two years. However, what they don't tell the students is that they won't automatically be accepted in that university's college that they originally desired.

Because of Ohio's history in the Northwest Territories we have a plethora of public and private institutions. The legacy private institutions like Wittenberg and Ohio Wesleyan and many others, that once attracted out of state well to do families for generations are facing serious challenges because of their fast rising tuition rates. Top notch schools like Kenyon can manage better than some, but the demographics of a smaller number of graduates due to decade long birth rate decline doesn't show sings of changing any time soon.

In the Ohio public school realm, Akron and Wright State have been in a free fall for some time in college rankings. Bowling Green and many others have started to slide. Lately only our beloved alma mater, Ohio State and Cincinnati have held their own in those college rankings. It will be interesting to see what the future holds since early surveys of Generation Z who are just now entering college shows they don't want to incur debt like their millennial older brothers and sisters. Many are looking at apprentice type programs for highly skilled trade type positions that are in increasing demand.

Recently we had some electrical issues at our home and a young man came to fix them. He told my wife and me that he was studying engineering and wracking up debt when he decided to just get an associates degree. He soon started his own electrical business and now is living far better than many of his former engineering students who are trying to find work and pay off debt. This might change the whole college dynamic.

Last Edited: 8/6/2017 9:49:58 AM by cbus cat fan

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 12:48:41 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I think you're be far, far too expansive in this. And there's no way that UC gets relegated. They have both the largest grad/research infrastructure after Ohio State and the most political/business community clout after Ohio State. Also, if you start letting all these schools in, you wake the beast in Columbus who is going to fear a return to the 60s and 70s. Somebody who works in Ohio higher ed put it this way, "Ohio State doesn't have enough power to get everything they want, but they do have enough power to kill anything they don't want."

As for BG and KSU's legacy as four corners universities, it means exactly nothing. They're regional commuter schools. That's what they were founded to be. That's what they've always been. And that's what they need to continue to be. Good luck trying to get special appropriations so that they can raise faculty salaries in a state with high tuition and was just ranked as the worst state in the nation for student loan debt. If schools want to attempt to compete with Ohio State on faculty salaries, they're going to have to try and find a way to do it within their budgets.

If you look at the ratio of UC to Cal State schools and compare the population of California to Ohio, at best you're looking at 3 or maybe 4 schools that make the cut for the top tier. Ohio State, Miami and Ohio and/or Cincinnati. Let BG, KSU, Toledo and Akron occupy a mid-tier of moderate admissions standards and limited graduate/professional programs. Cleveland State, Wright State and Shawnee would remain relatively open admission campuses.

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 12:57:07 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

I've always said that Ohio should get very aggressive in marketing to OSU's wait list. They're sending kids to the branch campuses for a year or two who would be in the top half (sometimes quarter) of Ohio's freshman class. Reach out to those kids and convince them that they shouldn't have to spend half their college career in a branch campus and to come to Athens and start it right from the beginning.

cbus cat fan wrote:

In the Ohio public school realm, Akron and Wright State have been in a free fall for some time in college rankings. Bowling Green and many others have started to slide. Lately only our beloved alma mater, Ohio State and Cincinnati have held their own in those college rankings.

I wish that were true, but under McDavis, Ohio slid from around 105 to 146. Miami has bounced from the low 60s to as low as 90, but is back up to 79. Cincinnati had a boost when they went from open admissions to rough admissions parity with Ohio. That was the easy part. We'll see where they go from here.

Last Edited: 8/6/2017 1:56:29 PM by OUPride

cbus cat fan
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 3:19:53 PM

OUPride I believe the rankings I was referring to came from Dr. Vedder's research group (Center for College Affordability and Productivity) in conjunction with Forbes magazine. I realize others will claim he was biased towards Ohio and away from other public schools. He claims the numbers can't be manipulated. Anyway, here's the link.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2016/0...

Last Edited: 8/6/2017 3:21:17 PM by cbus cat fan

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 3:52:38 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

I don't think Vedder's biased towards Ohio. I do think he's completely biased again public universities overall. He's stated that in his perfect world there would be no public universities and no federal or state financial aid of any kind. I think his rankings are set up to promote that bias that and are somewhat ridiculous (25% of the score is based on ratemyprofessors.com).

Say what you will about USNWR. They're at best imperfect and at worst deeply flawed, but they don't exist to serve any agenda beyond selling college guides. And they're also the most important out there for a school like Ohio to make an impression with kids and parents.

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 4:20:29 PM

Speaking of the earlier discussion here on gpa versus test scores, I just saw this. 47% of American seniors are graduating with an A average at the same time SAT scores are declining.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/07/17/easy-a-nea... /

Last Edited: 8/7/2017 12:55:41 PM by OUPride

Campus Flow
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 6:11:14 PM

Miami doesn't have a lot of clout on the future make up of the USO. They are way down the list in state funding. A five school plan with Toledo, UC, OSU, Kent and Ohio with Kent the UC Santa Cruz is the way to go. Tier I faculty payments to those universities to keep faculty pay at the research elite. Numbers below don't include state money for branch campuses adding another 30-50 million for OSU, UC, OU, Kent.

https://www.ohiohighered.org/content/fy2018_operating_budget

$$$ millions
OSU 384.2
UC 218.0
Ohio 159.5
Kent 156.6
Toledo 109.7
Akron 105.5
Wright 85.7
BG 76.9
Miami 74.7
Cleveland 74.5
YSU 42.9
Shawnee 12.9

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Alan Swank
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/6/2017 8:46:52 PM

OUPride wrote:

Speaking of the earlier discussion here on gpa versus test scores, I just saw this. 47% of American seniors are graduation with an A average at the same time SAT scores are declining.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/07/17/easy-a-nea... /

My point exactly. Related to that is the number of younger teachers who were used to getting an A. GPA really means nothing in an era when most high school graduates can't name the 50 states much less their capitals or give a practical use for the pythagorean theorem.

Robert Fox
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/7/2017 9:27:30 AM

Interesting article. No doubt grade inflation is a real problem. However, I also have doubts about the value of standardized testing--how effective it is in predicting academic performance.

Then again, I frequently question testing methodologies. Many variables to consider, and those variables have a potentially huge impact on test takers. For example, I have read AP History questions that offer multiple choice answers that are nothing short of needless complexity, purposeful confusing language, even word games designed, apparently, to trip up the student. All of this is then put to some rather arbitrary time limit.

Someone, somewhere, has decided that these methods are the best for selecting academic excellence.

Again, I have my sincere doubts.

OUPride
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RE: Nellis planning public input forums

Posted: 8/7/2017 12:52:19 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

I would market ourselves as part of the University of Ohio System. Ohio isnt a state where you have 1 land grant university with everything else in the second tier.

It depends on what portion of Ohio history you're looking at. Ohio people don't like to openly discuss it, but that is exactly what OSU was founded to be. It's why Hayes fought to keep the new university out of Springfield and away from the ag interests and then pushed through a vote on a classic curriculum as soon as it was open and changed the name a couple years later. Their role as the state's only grad/research school was written into law in 1906, and when the state instituted the first annual budget supporting higher education it was set up as two separate funding bills--one for OSU and one for the Four Corners. And that's the way things stayed until the 1960s.

Now if you look at the Rhodes era, then you're correct. All the universities were treated the same. The only exception being that he looked the other way when Millett allowed Miami to backdoor their way into selective admissions. But the Rhodes period never swept away the advantages that OSU had built up over the previous 80 years, which is why they were able to bounce back and swat Miami aside so quickly.

Post-Rhodes, is a bit of a grey area. OSU has never been reinstated as any kind of formal "flagship" by the state, yet it takes a bit of willful thinking to not accept that, on the ground, that's exactly what they are: AAU, nearly a billion dollars in annual research, $4B endowment, highest admission standards in the system and so on. One could dig into the National Research Council doctoral program rankings in everything from Astonomy to Philosophy and see how big the gap is between them and the rest of the system. It was just papered over for a couple of decades by the open admissions policy.

https://mup.asu.edu/sites/default/files/mup-2015-top-amer...

So bringing this back around to how you would reorganize the system. I still think you're being too broad about this. California funds 9 public 4-year research universities for a population of 39M. Ohio has a population of 11M or roughly 28%. That would be 2.52 public research universities. I think, at most, you put four in that top tier. OSU, UC, Ohio and Miami as the Santa Cruz type campus. I said in a different thread once that Ohio has been held back the last few decades not so much by Ohio State as by Akron, and UT and BG and KSU all running unnecessary and irrelevant doctoral programs and diluting funding. Your plan still tries to spread the peanut butter to every corner of the state. And I think OSU would view it as another go at teaming up to pull them down rather than working with them to bring some rational structure to the system, and that's they key to getting anything done politically.

Last Edited: 8/7/2017 12:58:17 PM by OUPride

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