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Topic: RE: An assault on old OU

Topic: RE: An assault on old OU

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DelBobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 11:37:46 AM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Talk about liberal rants and stereotypes. Jeez. Conservatives don't like teachers. Catholic schools kick kids out and don't take kids with learning disabilities. I take it all the African-American and Hispanic parents who send their children to these schools must be rich.

I am going to forward this thread to my friends who are parents and administrators at these schools, they could use a good laugh!

By the way, I understand the liberal Bubble Community (the skit from Saturday Night Live) is still taking applications.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-bubble/3...

Lots of Catholic schools absolutely do not take kids with learning disabilities or behavior problems. That is a fact. In Philly, the Catholic schools are very competitive and only the best students are admitted.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

cbus cat fan
General User

Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 11:41:31 AM

Del Bobcat, maybe Philly and some other places where they don't have the resources and limited space, but they do in many other locations. They absolutely do in much of Ohio and the West Coast.

DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 11:47:30 AM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Del Bobcat, maybe Philly and some other places where they don't have the resources and limited space, but they do in many other locations. They absolutely do in much of Ohio and the West Coast.

That's fine but we're talking about looking for policies that would be useful nationwide.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 12:07:47 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school.

Only if there are options. I work 4 counties away from Charlotte mecklenburg county. 3 of the 4 counties only have one high school in the county. One high school public or private. There are about a dozen such counties in North Carolina only. A shift to a voucher system does then no good. The system is a viable approach in urban America but not rural America.

What county do you live in cc? West Virginia and Kentucky have similar one school counties and Ohio has at least one (Vinton County).

The county I grew up in had, and has, only four high schools. Adams County. There was talk at one point of consolidating them into two schools, but kids already spend so much time on buses. Sometimes, when I would spend the night at my grandmother's house, the bus would come to pick me up at 5:45 am. I did not look forward to those bus rides.

And the choice kids in your county is going to get? More for profit on-line schools that are exempt from state standards.

The pick of DeVos is a horrible pick on many levels, not the least of which is the fact that in the last election cycle she and her family donated over $40K to Rob Portman. The issue many has is not that choice should not be an option, but its what the choice looks like, and the choice she has promoted is profiteering and failure.

Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 12:08:50 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

We've tried to keep an important discussion civil. Sentences like you last destroy that discussion.

You misunderstand my tone. I was not attempting to be uncivil. Just pointing out what I perceive to be the overall problem, at least in the eyes of some. When it comes to the inner-workings of the school, you have a much better handle than I do. So I can't argue with you effectively. However, the issue here regards where the control comes from. I prefer that control to be as local as possible, especially when I have NO choice but to send my children to the local school.

.

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 12:12:14 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Del Bobcat, maybe Philly and some other places where they don't have the resources and limited space, but they do in many other locations. They absolutely do in much of Ohio and the West Coast.

No, they actually do not! Students are turned away everyday from the parochial schools in Ohio for a variety of reasons.

Check out Florida, 86% of charter schools do not serve kids with severe disabilities. Check out Michigan what has happened with kids with disabilities in Detroit under her watch.

https://stateimpact.npr.org/florida/2011/12/21/can-charte... /

DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 12:18:39 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

cbus cat fan wrote:

Del Bobcat, maybe Philly and some other places where they don't have the resources and limited space, but they do in many other locations. They absolutely do in much of Ohio and the West Coast.

Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 12:58:16 PM

DelBobcat wrote:

Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.

Interesting allusion to a quote from the majority opinion in Brown V. Board of Education back in the most recent Civil Rights Era; however, I think it is misdirected. Why do black parents in the inner city overwhelmingly approve vouchers in virtually every survey that has been done of that cohort? It seems to me that they are saying they want to be able to send their children to a better school, rather than the one in their neighborhood. It's almost like volunteer rather than forced busing.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,820

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 1:46:04 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

L.C. wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

What county do you live in cc? West Virginia and Kentucky have similar one school counties and Ohio has at least one (Vinton County).

I live in mecklenburg county (Charlotte) but work in Scotland County. The other two one high school Counties I pass through are Anson and Richmond. The viability of online is also limited as many of the kids do not have computers at home and the town is not wired. Many simply do not realize how poor parts of this country still are In 2017. Devos has shown no understanding of the challenges of rural America.

BillyTheCat
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 2:05:55 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.

Duh!!! The issue is why their schools have been degraded to the point people want out. Just look at your own backyard and you will see one of the greatest haves v. have not's situations in education in OHIO. If there was race involved it would be a sure fire loser in federal court.

GroverBall
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Member Since: 12/3/2012
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,241

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 3:43:17 PM

Robert Fox wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

We've tried to keep an important discussion civil. Sentences like you last destroy that discussion.

Robert Fox wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Then they will turn around and vilify the profession. From my experience, this is very prevalent in the south, not the majority but very prevalent none the less.

Message: Suck it up, buttercup.

Gee Alan, how did you misunderstand RF's tone?

Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 2,992

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 3:53:24 PM

I once sat an listened to a complete train wreck of a story about a new teacher's experience in an inner-city Chicago school. She lasted one year and I can't recall if she gave up on teaching or not. But, I just could not believe what I was hearing. So there are completely dysfunctional schools. From leadership to facilities to teachers to students and their families.

But, this isn't normal competition. Vouchers and charter schools dilute funding. Conservatives need to "man up" and help fix these schools instead of running away from issues with vouchers and choice. The wimps! ;)

I got a buddy who works at GE. If his plant starts failing, he doesn't open a new one across the street and build stuff at both. He works on fixing the current plant.

Last Edited: 2/7/2017 3:54:37 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 3:56:04 PM

GroverBall wrote:

Gee Alan, how did you misunderstand RF's tone?

I guess it's not obvious that the message (suck it up, buttercup) is coming from the left and delivered to the right. That's not my message to you. Sheesh.

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 4:43:21 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.

This a true but little know fact to those who came to OU for 4 years, graduated and left. One of our local elementary schools passed zero of the 12 performance objectives this past year while another school in the district passed 10 of 12. The former has a 78% free and reduced lunch population, the latter is at 18%. 117 students who live in the attendance area for school A exercised an intra-district option to go to another school while only four transferred in. See a problem? Unfortunately they are generally poorer rural white kids with no one to advocate for their education well-being.

BillyTheCat
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Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 4:47:10 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

DelBobcat wrote:

Exactly. Vouchers are really about creating two school systems. Separate and unequal. They will only exacerbate educational and income inequality.

Also of note, Intra district busing was discontinued, so those students of lower socio-economic status had no means to transport themselves to the better schools, which creates an even more lopsided disparity of wealth and resources.

Last Edited: 2/7/2017 4:47:29 PM by BillyTheCat

cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 4:49:54 PM

To our friends on the left, honestly from a political point of view, keep doing what you are doing. You have no idea how this is all going to blow back on you in Nov 2018. I don't know how other conservatives voted but in the GOP primary but I didn't vote for Trump, but did vote for him the general election. I have to think Trump strategists believe they couldn't have scripted this any better.

The hysterics on the Left are as bewildering as they are amusing. I can't tell you how many women I know who didn't for Trump were appalled by the language of some of the speaker sat the Women's March. Then we had the anarchists in Berkeley, and daily drama coming from the liberal powers that be. Just looked at my in box, I received a couple of replies from parents in the city that I know who send their children to Catholic and charter schools. I sent them a link to this thread. I was slightly admonished by one person for even trying to reason with a "bunch of crazy people who don't live in the neighborhoods we do." They told me to save my breath.

Don't take my word for it. Rahm Emmanuel, who is hardly a conservative told his fellow liberals they are making a big mistake with all these hysteric. Below is a link from a New York Daily columnist, again hardly a conservative paper. The author says the Left is getting played by Trump and it will turn out badly for them. Check it out and remember it in Nov 2018.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/democrats-played-artic...

Last Edited: 2/7/2017 4:51:22 PM by cbus cat fan

cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,820

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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 4:50:54 PM

Robert Fox wrote:

GroverBall wrote:

Gee Alan, how did you misunderstand RF's tone?

I guess it's not obvious that the message (suck it up, buttercup) is coming from the left and delivered to the right. That's not my message to you. Sheesh.

Ironic. I was having this discussion in the Charlotte area last week as folks were reaching out to Sen Tillis about opposing Devos. I explained the situation in rural North Carolina and his response was to tell the folks in Scotland County to "suck it up snowflakes, there is a new sherif in town."

Pethaps both sides need to stop telling the other side to do anything and start listening. Especially on s subject such as education that impacts the next generation that will have to clean up the mess we are giving them. We being both parties. All of us.

Kevin Finnegan
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Location: Rockton, IL
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 5:07:36 PM

C-bus, this discussion about education does not have to be about liberal vs. conservative. It seems as though that is your first approach with any debate, while providing little to the topic at hand.

Not allowing students of disabilities into a charter/private school should not be a right/left issue, it should be something that a school that prides itself on the education of Christ to be ashamed of. Does this happen? Your damn right it does, and I know this first hand. At my (public) school, we service a number of students who had to leave private schools to get the speech/OT/PT/special education services that they need. And you know what? We do it while still maintaining far higher scores than any private school in the area.

I have not seen anything about the Women's March in this entire thread until your last response. I don't know what that has to do with Betsy DeVos's confirmation, which is now official. Instead of now trying to defeat her nomination, I hope to be able to educate her now on the great things that are being done in education and hope that she will finally start to learn about the department she is running rather than vilify it.

I think you would do well to make this an inclusive discussion rather than looking to attack people for their beliefs.

cbus cat fan
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 5:52:42 PM

Finn Ohio, I had to take a step back away from the computer due to your last post. I don't make blanket condemnations about anyone in my business. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is why I only knock education administrators in Washington DC. I took issue not only with President Obama's education policies, but those of President George W Bush's "No Child Left Behind," which I felt was too test centered and took too much power from local parents and educators. If she showed up to work in a drunken stupor Betsy DeVos couldn't be any worse than what we have had for too many years.

I never said all Catholic schools accept kids with disabilities, a lot of them can't. They are on shoe string budgets. Yes, there are elitist, liberal Catholic schools who are Catholic in name only. However, the ones I have been associated with are salt of the earth schools, which reflect the background from which I came. I have been involved with too many fundraisers helping those in need to take your liberal, lying diatribe at face value.

As I stated before, I don't make blanket condemnations about people in my business, but I see you do. I have worked with many public school administrators who have basically stated they don't believe in the nonsense they hear coming from liberal elitist who try to control their communities from Washington. It seems you welcome the DC elitist, social engineering nonsense at face value. A pretty sad indictment indeed!

Last Edited: 2/7/2017 5:55:39 PM by cbus cat fan

akroncat
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Location: Akron, OH
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 6:01:35 PM

Alan, as you know, I live in Akron. I feel for your district, but if Athens has this trouble is there any hope for Akron. Couple of questions - What would you and Billy recommend to fix the problem? Have the better teachers transferred to the better school? My limited knowledge here is that the better schools like the Firestone area tend to have the better teachers. You can't blame them in high school here where they can get assaulted at school.

I do charity work for the Society of St. Vincent dePaul and each week I visit homes in the inner city. It is hard to see how some of these kids have any chance of surviving. Almost always one parent homes with mothers who started having kids at 16. The breakdown of the family is in my opinion the number one cause of many issues. If the children had two working parents they would at least have a chance. Until we get everyone to work and take responsibility, I don't think there is enough money in the world to fix these problems. As you can tell I am rather conservative, but I do this charity work to help the kids. That is the only chance some of these households have for the future. We pay some bills, bring food and books for the kids since many house have none. We can argue liberal and conservative back and forth, but until individuals start taking responsibility, get an education and work for a living, I feel sorry for my children having to deal with this issue because this issue will still be here when I am long gone.

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 6:34:11 PM

And I've met too many conservative elitist who are dismissive of the challenges poor rural and urban communities face. They point to their suburban schools and scoff at parents in poor communities that question the allocation of resources. The reality is we are each shaped by our own experiences and what c-bus may experience in DC is nothing like we experience here in rural NC as he accepts. So what we have to do is put away the political monikers and the pushing/presenting of our own experiences as universal or indicative and listen to each other and do what is best for the kids. Because we can not change their living conditions to fit a solution. The solution must fit them. Especially those that do not have the many options others may have.

And while some may argue that "that is why it is best left to local politicians" they are too often unaware at how politically charged and motivated local school boards and politicians are (they all want the stack of money) so checks and balances must be in place.

My concern with Devos is she has never shown the ability or interest to adapt her solution and views to those in environments that are completely foreign to her. Grizzly bears and all.

Robert Fox
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Location: Knoxville, TN
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 7:49:03 PM

cc-cat wrote:

And while some may argue that "that is why it is best left to local politicians" they are too often unaware at how politically charged and motivated local school boards and politicians are (they all want the stack of money) so checks and balances must be in place.

And therein lies the rub. You just dismissed the conservative point of view. How can we find common ground with that kind of dismissal? Are you suggesting that I and others like me are not aware of local school boards, how they function, and how they are elected into office? How can a "check and balance" dictated by the federal government effectively apply to all local school districts?

Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 9:40:19 PM

Robert Fox wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

Guys you need to stop talking in absolutes. I guess I'll pull rank or experience here having taught at least one class in every state east of the Mississippi and north of the Florida border in the last 40 years. In some districts, unions are a must because the good old boy school board will get you if you don't toe their line. In some districts, the former coaches make very bad administrators. In some districts, the majority of teachers went to the local high school. I view those things as less than optimal. And of course there are many exceptions.

On the flip side I visited a high school southeast of Lexington, KY, that has a four year guitar program. I've been in a school in Delaware County, Ohio, that has a junior high broadcast journalism program. And I've taught a class in Minnesota in a school that has a $125K yearbook program. All three of those schools are getting it done.

It starts with the family - their presence, their education and their money. It continues with educational leadership in the local school house and at the superintendent's level. Short of those things, all the money in the world won't solve the problems that some schools face.

Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,706

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 9:45:52 PM

Herewith a collection of thoughts and memories about quality of education.

My grade 1-8 teachers were Franciscan nuns. Three or four struck me as exceptional. The others mediocre. One - my 8th grade teacher - was unprepared to teach/handle 14-year-old boys beginning to feel their oats and engage in a measure of rebellion.

At a public high school, several teachers - Latin, algebra, geometry, Spanish, history - were exceptional. Several were mediocre and one was dreadful.

Decades pass and my kids attended a high school - Charles Brush in Lyndhurst - which at that time was highly regarded. Its administration boasted about how well students did on standardized tests, the percentage that went to college, number who were awarded scholarships, etc. Yet, as my kids went thru Brush, they complained about certain teachers. I queried them:
Q. Are those teachers men or women?
A. Always men.
Q. About how old are they?
A. About your age, Dad.

Their answers reminded me of some Ohio men friends who majored in education not because they wanted to teach but because they regarded teaching as a means to deferments from military service. It was, then, easy to imagine them as 40ish and just marking time in classrooms until they could retire. I couldn't help wondering how many such men from colleges across the country were populating 1-12 classrooms.

More recently I read a lengthy story - Newsweek or TIME, as I recall - that reported on findings of a study on teacher quality conducted by McKinsey & Co.
The numbers I am about to cite may be off somewhat but they are in the statistical ballpark. The study on public school teachers found that only one-third had finished in the top one-half of their graduating classes. An even smaller percentage finished near the top of their classes. Again, I couldn't help wondering about the caliber of teachers in our nation's classrooms.

As I think many BAers know, other studies show a sizable percentage of teachers leaving the ranks of education after a few years. How many of those early departures are the most able teachers?

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline

RE: An assault on old OU

Posted: 2/7/2017 10:21:10 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Robert Fox wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

As Alan says, it starts with the family, and most times family is the most important variable.

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