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Topic:  RE: An assault on old OU

Topic:  RE: An assault on old OU
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/4/2017 4:59:58 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school. You can even create a progressive voucher system, where the poorest get a full ride in private school, and where, with higher and higher incomes, the parents have to pay more. Essentially this is applying the college scholarship model to lower levels, and it empowers the poor, not disenfranchises them.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/4/2017 7:45:49 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.


Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".




Well Deciduous Forest Cat that was a revealing post. I said nothing about religion and no Republican has been out on the campaign trail saying anything about the Bible and schools. Yet you have to attack religion and throw in the Bible for good measure.

This is part and parcel of the Militant Left. Religion isn't under their control, though they have their ideas which I will state shortly. Whatever one's religious faith it's tenets come from the divine and not man, therefore the Left can't hope to control it like they do government and social institutions.

In the 1950s, Bella Dodd former US Communist Party organizer and head of the New York State Teacher's Union stated before Congress that she was given directives by Moscow to help infiltrate religious seminaries, primarily US Catholic seminaries. The plan never really got off the ground because Thank God she had a religious awakening and returned to the Catholic faith of her youth. She stated that Moscow believed it could gradually influence academia and social and entertainment institutions, but religious ones were a hard nut to crack (link below)

It has always been the dream of the Left to dismantle faith. John Lennon shortly before he was murdered also lamented Socialism't influence on him. He even spoke of his admiration for religious faith and Ronald Reagan (link below.)

I say this because while it has always been the Left's attempt to extinguish religion's significance from society, it will be at society's peril. Oddly, I learned from of all people a leftist professor at our alma mater. It was a graduate studies class on Western Thought. The professor began the class by telling the students that they probably never had a professor who would acknowledge to being openly gay, socialist and atheist (this was nearly 30 years ago.) The liberals in the class thought this would be right up their alley. Yet, after a few days one disgruntled student asked how it could be at a public university that he would be taught about St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas (Thomism) and Patristics (the Early Church Fathers?)

The professor reminded him and all of us that western thought has been influenced by all of these and for the better he might add. He went on to say that you can disagree with it, but where would our culture be without the moral compass they established?

Think of it this way, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had another belief system and look where it lead them. Something to ponder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bella_Dodd
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/06/28/lennon-was-a-closet-...

Last Edited: 2/4/2017 7:49:49 PM by cbus cat fan

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/4/2017 11:21:46 PM 
Yeah, OCF, the right is so open to everything. Uh, where's the vote on Obama's SCOTUS nominee? Where's the left slamming Trump for his lies, grossness, failure to keep promises? Where's the outrage at the lack of divestiture by Trump and his removing security experts from such as the NSC in favor of political appointees, etc, etc, etc. Yemen = Trump's Benghazi.

I guess it was okay to call Obama and Clinton on stuff--but not Trump.

L.C.--It would..distance/transportation...give 'em the money and watch the corruption...admission standards...etc, etc...split the country more.


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/4/2017 11:25:44 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
For the life of me, I can't get how some liberals like Alan agree on how ridiculous the OU faculty has been acting and not see how ridiculous the powers that be in Washington have been treating kids, parents and educators for decades.

.


Time out my good man. You have no idea whatsoever what my thoughts on education are. On some matters they are quite liberal and on others they are very conservative. Yes, it's possible to have a balanced set of beliefs on a single topic. As for Washington and for that matter the state of Ohio, at the junior high and high school level what happens when the door is shut in the individual classroom varies widely from room to room much less building to building.

I won't or don't pretend to know the answers but having worked in hundreds of schools over the last 40 years, the two most important factors in the education of a child are the stability of the home and the quality of the teacher (well grounded in subject matter and able to deliver it in an engaging fashion - something other than a PowerPoint presentation).
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/5/2017 12:00:27 AM 
Well said Allen, from your points I truly believe you have a more nuanced view on matters than some of your liberal colleagues. The point I still contend is while we both agree in not blaming teachers and local administrators for the problems in education, the powers that be in DC still try to push an agenda that is to the detriment of all involved. Whether it be the social engineering, incessant testing and endless regulations and mandates, this is what is hurting educators who are already dealing with many children who come from home lives that are very challenging.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/5/2017 10:01:59 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Yeah, OCF, the right is so open to everything. Uh, where's the vote on Obama's SCOTUS nominee? Where's the left slamming Trump for his lies, grossness, failure to keep promises? Where's the outrage at the lack of divestiture by Trump and his removing security experts from such as the NSC in favor of political appointees, etc, etc, etc. Yemen = Trump's Benghazi.

I guess it was okay to call Obama and Clinton on stuff--but not Trump.

L.C.--It would..distance/transportation...give 'em the money and watch the corruption...admission standards...etc, etc...split the country more.


1.I believe it was Joe Biden who said that a Supreme Court appointment should not be made during a president's last year in office.
Maybe he meant only Republican presidents.

2.The left not slamming President Trump ?
I guess CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS,The New York Times and the Washington Post don't count.

3.As far as I know,Presidnet Trumps' divestitures meet all legal requirements.

4.Yemen = Benghazi. Seriously ?

An administration refusing to provide additional security,after numerous requests,not attempting to send aid when an embassy is attacked and then lying about the cause of the attack is the same as a military raid, resulting in a SEAL's death.

If that's the case,then every soldier that died in combat during Obama's term is on him.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/5/2017 11:23:30 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Well said Allen, from your points I truly believe you have a more nuanced view on matters than some of your liberal colleagues. The point I still contend is while we both agree in not blaming teachers and local administrators for the problems in education, the powers that be in DC still try to push an agenda that is to the detriment of all involved. Whether it be the social engineering, incessant testing and endless regulations and mandates, this is what is hurting educators who are already dealing with many children who come from home lives that are very challenging.


I'm not sure it's the number of tests but all of the factors surrounding them. I've seen schools take weeks taking practice tests to prepare for the tests. I've seen schools adopt unusually crazy schedules for test days. I've seen schools induce a level of anxiety that as parents we would never place on our own children. All all for what? One of our local elementary schools passed zero - none of the 12 performance indicators and nothing happens as far as sanctions.

My point - schools need to quit making such a big deal about tests and just go on doing what the great teachers do best - teach and facilitate learning. If that happens, the test results will take care of themselves.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/5/2017 11:53:47 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
...been short changed by an elitist, leftist cabal in DC, whose only goal is to control people and not educate or help them.


Are you out of your f***ing mind? Really?

If republicans put half as much energy into actual education as they do trying to shove the Bible into public education, we might be in a better spot. The education issues definitely deserve blame from both sides, but the idea that liberals are trying to control people? Yeah, that's rich. If republicans ever had an alternate name it would be "thought police".



You seem to be lost in the 1960s, or even earlier. The thought police today are clearly on the left. Look what just happened at UC-Beserkley. If you don't toe the liberal line you have no right to speak. The leftist thugs didn't want to attend his talk and then engage in questions and try to show intellectually the superiority of their arguments. They wanted to silence his speech. This on the campus that was once the birthplace of the free-speech movement. We are very much in danger of fascism of the left in this country. As you may recall from political science classes, the far-right and far-left have much in common and occupy close to the same space on the political spectrum.



The disruptions had jack-all to do with UC Berkeley or its students. UCB gave him a venue to speak, and the student protests were peaceful (hell, they even had a frickin' buffet set up). What happened is that about a 100 professional anarchists from Oakland showed up and started a riot. Berkeley (rightly) canceled the event out of public safety at that point. You (or Vedder or Trump) can't demonize higher education for this.

The guy's been allowed to speak at numerous other public campuses (he was at OSU right before the Berkeley speech) and has met large, peaceful student protests but no violence or riots. Berkeley was an aberration.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/5/2017 11:10:44 PM 
Well, this article from the New York Times has an interesting take on the UCB situation:

https://tinyurl.com/zl3t3dw

One quote from the article points out that the original free speech movement folks are not too happy with the current situation at UCB:


"One group that has been outspoken in favor of allowing Mr. Yiannopoulos to speak is the veterans of the university’s free speech movement.

"I’m really a little fatigued with all of this, ‘Oh my goodness, cover my ears, someone will say something that will upset me, I can’t tolerate that,’” said Jack Radey, who was a 17-year-old activist during the original free speech movement at Berkeley.

“There are racists, sexists, piggery of various kinds who will say really terrible things. And that is part of the world,” Mr. Radey said by telephone from Oregon, where he is retired. “Learn how to fight back. Don’t say, ‘Oh, no. We can’t allow someone to speak because someone might be offended.’ ”



The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/6/2017 12:18:47 AM 
Again, UC Berkeley allowed him to speak. They provided a venue for the sponsoring student group. The student-faculty protests were peaceful. Only after the outside elements started a riot outside the facility, set fires and began trashing businesses, threatening the safety of all present did the UC administration make the public safety decision to cancel the event.

You want to call out and demonize the black-bloc and anarchists who came in from Oakland to disrupt the event? I'm with you. But you can't hang this on the university.
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akroncat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/6/2017 11:36:31 AM 
Then why didn't the university or town police arrest those causing vandalism? Could it be that the university sided with them and didn't want any of its precious students arrested?
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/6/2017 11:54:03 AM 
Three arrested.

http://abc7news.com/news/3-arrested-in-violent-protest-at... /
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/6/2017 8:50:40 PM 
I went to a catholic school. Not a single special needs kid was there. Kicked out or not let in. Troublemaker? Kicked out. Etc. You simply can't compare them to a public school that must spend considerable time and money and resources on things private schools do not.

The biggest influence on student success is what is happening at home. Kids with parents that don't care? They are not at private schools.

In what other industry would you look to improve by spreading out already thin resources even further? What other industry would open up more and more sites? That's what charter schools is doing. It makes zero economic sense.

Someone needs to point out to rural voters how much money is being taken from their school and given to charter schools somewhere else. I think support for charter schools would drop quickly.

I read somewhere that like 50% of new teachers quit within a few years. If that was doctors or nurses or police/fire or other essesntial-for-community-success jobs there would be huge efforts to improve and change that figure. Teachers? Nah.....treated like crap and scapegoated and attacked endlessly.

Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling. And improves nothing.

(Phew - what a rant...)



Last Edited: 2/6/2017 8:53:12 PM by Ohio69


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/6/2017 10:28:45 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school.


Only if there are options. I work 4 counties away from Charlotte mecklenburg county. 3 of the 4 counties only have one high school in the county. One high school public or private. There are about a dozen such counties in North Carolina only. A shift to a voucher system does then no good. The system is a viable approach in urban America but not rural America.

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 8:30:50 AM 
Ohio69 wrote:
Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling.



This is simply untrue. That's the problem with political debates. No one wants to characterize the opposition with anything other than hatred, or devious intent, or racism, or etc..........
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 8:59:23 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling.



This is simply untrue. That's the problem with political debates. No one wants to characterize the opposition with anything other than hatred, or devious intent, or racism, or etc..........


Well I may have over-stated this just wee little bit in my above rant. (It was rant after all.) I wish I hadn't as now we are focusing on that insult instead of all the comments above it.






Last Edited: 2/7/2017 8:59:51 AM by Ohio69


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 9:04:13 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling.



This is simply untrue. That's the problem with political debates. No one wants to characterize the opposition with anything other than hatred, or devious intent, or racism, or etc..........


While a tad overstated, his point is quite valid. Here's a parallel and documented argument. Most people think their guy in Congress is doing a great job (over 80% feel that way). Most people believe that Congress is a mess (again, over 80% feel that way). You can't have it both ways. The group that 69 cites will tell you that their public school (if they send their kids to one) is doing a fine job. Then they will turn around and vilify the profession. From my experience, this is very prevalent in the south, not the majority but very prevalent none the less.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 9:08:06 AM 
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school.


Only if there are options. I work 4 counties away from Charlotte mecklenburg county. 3 of the 4 counties only have one high school in the county. One high school public or private. There are about a dozen such counties in North Carolina only. A shift to a voucher system does then no good. The system is a viable approach in urban America but not rural America.



What county do you live in cc? West Virginia and Kentucky have similar one school counties and Ohio has at least one (Vinton County).

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 10:40:23 AM 
Ohio69 wrote:
I went to a catholic school. Not a single special needs kid was there. Kicked out or not let in. Troublemaker? Kicked out. Etc. You simply can't compare them to a public school that must spend considerable time and money and resources on things private schools do not.

The biggest influence on student success is what is happening at home. Kids with parents that don't care? They are not at private schools.

In what other industry would you look to improve by spreading out already thin resources even further? What other industry would open up more and more sites? That's what charter schools is doing. It makes zero economic sense.

Someone needs to point out to rural voters how much money is being taken from their school and given to charter schools somewhere else. I think support for charter schools would drop quickly.

I read somewhere that like 50% of new teachers quit within a few years. If that was doctors or nurses or police/fire or other essesntial-for-community-success jobs there would be huge efforts to improve and change that figure. Teachers? Nah.....treated like crap and scapegoated and attacked endlessly.

Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling. And improves nothing.

(Phew - what a rant...)





+1

And then what is left is the kids that private schools will not take. Anyone want to see what this is like, just check out the public schools of Virginia in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's.

And the big difference now is the "for profit" margin of running schools by companies who have as a charge to their bottom line maximizing profits, and the lobbying of these businesses to become exempt from the same standards as the public schools.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 10:48:47 AM 
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school.


Only if there are options. I work 4 counties away from Charlotte mecklenburg county. 3 of the 4 counties only have one high school in the county. One high school public or private. There are about a dozen such counties in North Carolina only. A shift to a voucher system does then no good. The system is a viable approach in urban America but not rural America.



Sure it does....ON-Line private charter schools, the fastest growing ponzi scheme in America. You'd be surprised how many attend on-line schools currently in NC, their are 71 charter schools in operation the largest having over 84,000 students and three others have populations of over 60,000+
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 10:56:42 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Ohio69 wrote:
Conservatives' nonstop pure hatred for teachers is mind boggling.



This is simply untrue. That's the problem with political debates. No one wants to characterize the opposition with anything other than hatred, or devious intent, or racism, or etc..........


While a tad overstated, his point is quite valid. Here's a parallel and documented argument. Most people think their guy in Congress is doing a great job (over 80% feel that way). Most people believe that Congress is a mess (again, over 80% feel that way). You can't have it both ways. The group that 69 cites will tell you that their public school (if they send their kids to one) is doing a fine job. Then they will turn around and vilify the profession. From my experience, this is very prevalent in the south, not the majority but very prevalent none the less.


+1
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 11:08:49 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Then they will turn around and vilify the profession. From my experience, this is very prevalent in the south, not the majority but very prevalent none the less.


That's where I'm not following. I don't hear people vilifying teachers. They do vilify the school system/structure, much of which perhaps stems from having a very distant relationship with the folks who are ultimately in charge. Your school doing something you disagree with?
Teacher defers to Principal
Principal defers to Superintendent
Superintendent defers to School Board
School Board defers to State Education Department
State Education Department defers to Federal Regulations

So, your problem has been escalated to D.C. where you have NO influence whatsoever. Message: Suck it up, buttercup.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 11:20:05 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Then they will turn around and vilify the profession. From my experience, this is very prevalent in the south, not the majority but very prevalent none the less.


That's where I'm not following. I don't hear people vilifying teachers. They do vilify the school system/structure, much of which perhaps stems from having a very distant relationship with the folks who are ultimately in charge. Your school doing something you disagree with?
Teacher defers to Principal
Principal defers to Superintendent
Superintendent defers to School Board
School Board defers to State Education Department
State Education Department defers to Federal Regulations

So, your problem has been escalated to D.C. where you have NO influence whatsoever. Message: Suck it up, buttercup.


We've tried to keep an important discussion civil. Sentences like you last destroy that discussion. Washington, DC, has little to nothing to do with what happens in the individual classroom. Ask any good teacher that and that's the answer you'll get. If they did, how could you have two kindergarten classes in the same building - one with desks and one conducted in a manner like you and I experienced in the early 60's? Blaming the Federal government for the ills of our public schools is misplaced blame. The decline of the "traditional" family, poverty and flight are three of the biggest contributing factors. Enabling additional flight certainly won't help matters.

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 11:30:10 AM 
Talk about liberal rants and stereotypes. Jeez. Conservatives don't like teachers. Catholic schools kick kids out and don't take kids with learning disabilities. I take it all the African-American and Hispanic parents who send their children to these schools must be rich.

I am going to forward this thread to my friends who are parents and administrators at these schools, they could use a good laugh!

By the way, I understand the liberal Bubble Community (the skit from Saturday Night Live) is still taking applications.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-bubble/3...
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: An assault on old OU
   Posted: 2/7/2017 11:36:16 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
Admitting that I don't have facts to support this, putting money to charter schools seems sure to flight leave only the poorest and least able in the public school system....

Actually, it has exactly the reverse effect. Currently only the relatively wealthy can afford a private or parochial school. The poorest and least able have no alternative but public school. With a voucher system, even the poorest have the option of going to a private or parochial school.


Only if there are options. I work 4 counties away from Charlotte mecklenburg county. 3 of the 4 counties only have one high school in the county. One high school public or private. There are about a dozen such counties in North Carolina only. A shift to a voucher system does then no good. The system is a viable approach in urban America but not rural America.



What county do you live in cc? West Virginia and Kentucky have similar one school counties and Ohio has at least one (Vinton County).



The county I grew up in had, and has, only four high schools. Adams County. There was talk at one point of consolidating them into two schools, but kids already spend so much time on buses. Sometimes, when I would spend the night at my grandmother's house, the bus would come to pick me up at 5:45 am. I did not look forward to those bus rides.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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