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Topic:  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services

Topic:  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 11:41:03 AM 
The Optimist wrote:


Just like the internet allows us to communicate right now, the "internet of things" allows all these various computers to communicate in real-time.

I think it'll be a little while still before anyone takes away the option of a steering wheel (that'll be the real legal battle) but no matter your personal opinion on this subject you will be sharing the roads with driverless cars very, very soon.


Every once in a while,especially in bad weather, my internet goes down.

Every once in a while,GPS goes bonkers and sends you up a railroad track.

If I lose my internet while surfing,no biggie.
If my car does,splat.

Same if the GPS decides to send the car into a wall.


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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:01:35 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
I hear ya rpbobcat. I certainly understand driver less cars for the handicapped, vision-impaired etc. However, not wanting to drive when you are alone in the car is beyond my level of comprehension. We are either heading toward the non-fiction lyrics of Red Barchetta, or entering some sort of bored to tears existence. Either way it is a sci-fi way of life, I would rather not experience.


Have you never ridden a train or flown on an airplane?


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:03:34 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
The Optimist wrote:


Just like the internet allows us to communicate right now, the "internet of things" allows all these various computers to communicate in real-time.

I think it'll be a little while still before anyone takes away the option of a steering wheel (that'll be the real legal battle) but no matter your personal opinion on this subject you will be sharing the roads with driverless cars very, very soon.


Every once in a while,especially in bad weather, my internet goes down.

Every once in a while,GPS goes bonkers and sends you up a railroad track.

If I lose my internet while surfing,no biggie.
If my car does,splat.

Same if the GPS decides to send the car into a wall.



It's not that the technology doesn't exist to keep your internet running during bad weather, it's that there is no incentive for the ISP to spend money on the infrastructure to make that happen. Same goes for the GPS companies. There is a huge incentive for driverless cars to not have a hiccup like that.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:36:19 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
The Optimist wrote:


Just like the internet allows us to communicate right now, the "internet of things" allows all these various computers to communicate in real-time.

I think it'll be a little while still before anyone takes away the option of a steering wheel (that'll be the real legal battle) but no matter your personal opinion on this subject you will be sharing the roads with driverless cars very, very soon.


Every once in a while,especially in bad weather, my internet goes down.

Every once in a while,GPS goes bonkers and sends you up a railroad track.

If I lose my internet while surfing,no biggie.
If my car does,splat.

Same if the GPS decides to send the car into a wall.




Every once and a while, people have seizures.

Every once in a while, people get too drunk too drive.

The question is which option is safer and mitigates risk. Human drivers don't have a great record in that department.

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:45:06 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
I hear ya rpbobcat. I certainly understand driver less cars for the handicapped, vision-impaired etc. However, not wanting to drive when you are alone in the car is beyond my level of comprehension. We are either heading toward the non-fiction lyrics of Red Barchetta, or entering some sort of bored to tears existence. Either way it is a sci-fi way of life, I would rather not experience.


Have you never ridden a train or flown on an airplane?


Yes a lot, especially trains when I lived in the DC area for a while. I am kind of a train nut and like to read up on planes as well. However, in a train I can get up and move around, perhaps head to the lounge car for something to eat or drink. Also, in a train or plane there are well traveled routes where maneuverability in and out of traffic is not necessary as in a car. The driver less car might drive one a bit crazy depending upon the decision it makes in tight traffic, or what alternate rout it might take if there is a traffic jam.

Last Edited: 5/24/2017 12:45:59 PM by cbus cat fan

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:52:41 PM 
There is really no reasonable argument to be made that roadways full of humans are more safe than roadways full of driverless vehicles. Driving has become way way safer in recent years as traffic casualties have dropped from Way too high to still to high but better. The reason for the drop is, you guessed it, technology. My minivan beeps at me when a car in front of me gets to close or when I drift out of my lane. My Dad's car keeps a safe following distance automatically. Technology is mitigating human stupidity on the roadways and this is the next step.


Andrew Ruck

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 12:54:24 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Every once and a while, people have seizures.

Every once in a while, people get too drunk too drive.

The question is which option is safer and mitigates risk. Human drivers don't have a great record in that department.



Person has a seizure or drives drunk,that's one car.
Granted one car can cause a great deal of damage.

But, the internet goes down or GPS goes bonkers,that effects every driverless car in that area.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 1:26:35 PM 
When my internet goes down, it is always the modem losing connection to the internet at-large (ISP issue like DelBobcat mentioned) rather than the device I'm using disconnecting from the router in my house that provides wi-fi coverage. Likewise, I have wearable devices (fitbit, smartwatch) that connect to my phone via bluetooth and these devices are incredibly reliable in staying connected.

That's a very important distinction to make.

I think a lot of people envision every driverless car connecting to some server on the other side of the country via a satellite or cell-phone tower like you connect to the internet now. There will be tracking on that level (and data privacy there is certainly an issue that makes this libertarian cringe) but for the safety of driverless vehicles the more important "communication" is going to be your car's "short-range" chatter with the cars on the road next to you. That communication isn't going to go through a 3rd party, that'll be the computer in your car recognizing the car next to you and talking to it directly. That is very reliable.

...

I have no doubt there is going to be a large number of people who are against driverless vehicles and fight them every step of the way. I don't care to debate the merits of driverless cars with each skeptic. If you don't think this is happening though, you're wrong. They're coming.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 1:28:36 PM 
I hear self-riding Harley's are right around the corner too. No more being forced to cruise for mindless hours on back roads. The bikes will be far safer and much more fuel efficient--some things that the Harley crowd has been clamoring for for years.
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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 4:35:02 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:

Agreed. Having worked in Artificial Intelligence and Expert Systems there are a number of areas driverless cars are a crap shoot at best. And thus, lawsuits would be all over the place. Multiple driverless cars, on the same road, whether a highway or 2 lane road, would have issues with things like black ice, rain freezing (to ice). Multiple cars cannot know how the other will respond, thus if any car in a situation chooses a decision that conflicts with another car it's an accident waiting to happen. I will never in my lifetime be a passenger in a driverless car.


Ugh...I shouldn't have brought this back up, you're luring me in again. Your belief that multiple driverless cars can't work together while completely independent humans can is hard to wrap my mind around.

Also not being able to understand why you wouldn't want to drive the car...really? How bout sleeping, reading, watching a movie or many other completely free relaxing recreational activities? I would LOVE to turn my commute into 45 minutes of freedom.


For each it would/will be a choice. I prefer to have some control over a situation where I can make decisions that may help with my safety and well being and not be at the mercy of an external decision making entity.

I may not know everything about AI but was involved in it for years. There are, and will continue to be some situations where a smart system cannot make an optimal decision due to the many other variables and data (other cars) that can impact the decision made by each individual car. And that exists today with humans driving cars. But I can make my own decision now and will do so in the future.



I don't know where you get the idea "Multiple cars cannot know how the other will respond, thus if any car in a situation chooses a decision that conflicts with another car it's an accident waiting to happen."

That couldn't be further from the truth. Modern driverless technology isn't a bunch of independent cars driving around making decisions in the bubble of one computer in one car. The computer in one car is going to be in constant communication with the computers in surrounding/nearby cars constantly signaling when it is turning/switching lanes/speeding up/slowing down. Just like the internet allows us to communicate right now, the "internet of things" allows all these various computers to communicate in real-time.

I think it'll be a little while still before anyone takes away the option of a steering wheel (that'll be the real legal battle) but no matter your personal opinion on this subject you will be sharing the roads with driverless cars very, very soon.



So when multiple cars hit patches of black ice on a freeway at 60 or more mph they'll all instantaneously know what to do? Your premise above is that of normal driving conditions. My concerns, are black ice type events, where the best and most optimized technology can't solve the problem at hand. And I'm basing my opinions of having worked for the largest automaker, being involved in AI for almost a decade and having driven on black ice as part of R&D.
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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 4:40:26 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
If you don't think this is happening though, you're wrong. They're coming.


I won't argue they're coming. But I'll also predict a lot of lawsuits will follow as well for most any accident that occurs. Since you can't place blame on a human driver then they technology/automaker/driverless entity will be sued for big bucks.

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/24/2017 6:15:03 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
I hear self-riding Harley's are right around the corner too. No more being forced to cruise for mindless hours on back roads. The bikes will be far safer and much more fuel efficient--some things that the Harley crowd has been clamoring for for years.


Yeah....that's why my Kawasaki Councours 14 still calls my name everyday.

http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/upload...

Munches miles in great comfort and does so very efficiently. Getting behind those Harleys (affectionately known in the Hocking Hills as "Rolling Milwaukee Roadblocks") is never very much fun.

As far as the mindless back roads. ...my Concours prefers State and National Highways and scenery to mind numbing Interstates every day, every mile...and really appreciates human input and sensory feedback. They can have the self riding Harleys....I'll passionately enjoy my big Connie.




never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/25/2017 11:08:23 AM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:
So when multiple cars hit patches of black ice on a freeway at 60 or more mph they'll all instantaneously know what to do? Your premise above is that of normal driving conditions. My concerns, are black ice type events, where the best and most optimized technology can't solve the problem at hand. And I'm basing my opinions of having worked for the largest automaker, being involved in AI for almost a decade and having driven on black ice as part of R&D.


Listen to this guy. I believe he knows whereof he speaks. As I said earlier, I have no problem with computer-assisted cars. I own one, and its safety features are incredible, very helpful, and improve safety a good deal, as evidenced by the fact that my auto insurance rates are actually going down. However, it's going to be a long, long time before any AI device will be able to substitute for human decision making in the kind of situation that mid70 is talking about. I still believe that the emphasis in the term "artificial intelligence" should be on the word "artificial."


Got Frank . . . Got Dreams!
Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/25/2017 11:12:23 AM 
Nice bike! You'll need to bring that thing to US 129 "The Dragon" in my neck of the woods. Actually other areas around here are also great rides, Cherohala Skyway among them.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/25/2017 1:08:07 PM 
Driverless vehicles won't be doing 60 in icy conditions because vehicles in front of them will share real-time data from sensors in their tires indicating changing road conditions. Modern computers have more than enough processing power to evaluate this information and adjust the vehicle's motion accordingly.

The proactive, data-driven approach to driving is a focus on "intelligence" that has allowed for rapid advancements in this technology that was relatively stagnant for decades.

Last Edited: 5/25/2017 1:08:32 PM by The Optimist


I've seen crazier things happen.

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OUs LONG Driver
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/25/2017 1:33:45 PM 
I am always surprised how this conversation seems to always trend towards driverless vehicles being forced on the masses(e.g. you'll never take my steering wheel away!!). No one is saying they want to! If you want a driverless car you will be able to buy one or summon one whenever you want. I don't think anyone is saying driverless cars are going to replace every car on the road, that's simply not feasible. You can have your street rod or your motorcycle, you'll actually be safer driving those too. We all win here.

The what-if scenarios can be bounced around all day, and I'm confident those with skin in the game are considering all of the ones we can think of and many more. My car has weather dependent features already, why couldn't the car remove auto-pilot as an option under certain weather conditions? Rain sensing wipers, temperature dependent auto on/off at stops, 4-wheel drive mode, etc. are already features on my car from 2014 and those aren't really anything that new. In 10 more years who knows what is possible, but I'm excited to find out.

I'm not buying that a human automatically reacts better in a black ice scenario than a computer. You essentially have no control in that scenario so how does that even matter? There are things that are going to continue to cause crashes in automobiles no matter what you do, weather included. The idea is to produce a positive effect in the overall rate of accident occurrence as well as overall safety. Again no one is saying it will be perfect or there will never be a driverless vehicle crash. Even improving from full speed collision to a fender bender would be a huge life saver.


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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/25/2017 4:06:19 PM 
OUs LONG Driver wrote:
I am always surprised how this conversation seems to always trend towards driverless vehicles being forced on the masses(e.g. you'll never take my steering wheel away!!). No one is saying they want to!



Deja Vu! I think we've been here before. "Those of you still clinging to your steering wheels are endangering the lives of others!"
"Your right to drive does not trump (sorry) my right to be safe."
"People who insist on driving themselves want to take us back to the 1950s."

Maybe that's not true in this case, but I'd say that's the reason for the push back.
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 5/27/2017 5:57:30 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Nice bike! You'll need to bring that thing to US 129 "The Dragon" in my neck of the woods. Actually other areas around here are also great rides, Cherohala Skyway among them.


Ha been on the dragon, cherhola, back of the dragon, brp, and many of your roads. A lot of the guys down there see the OHIO sticker on the bike and start asking about Ohio 555 and Hocking hills motorcycle roads.


EDIT For locals Athens Co Tourism touts the motorcycle crowd. After living in Chicago I could not understand "weeehhndy" till I figured out "wiiiiindy" with a long I.... http://athensohio.com/category/ohios-windy-9 /

I wonder how self driving cars figure into the roads in Athens county and around where the "unwashed masses of the flyover states" and highly enlightened locals in Athens still navigate at speeds slighty faster than the tourists.

Last Edited: 6/8/2017 12:21:15 PM by bornacatfan


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/8/2017 10:18:16 AM 
There's an Associated Press article in the business section of today's The Record (http://www.northjersey.com ) that says Delphi/Transdev hope to introduce an autonomous taxi,with no human back up next year.

What is interesting is that, although the vehicle will be autonomous (no pedals,steering wheel,etc.),it will have a person inside to talk to passengers.
There will also be some type of central communication center that can take control of the vehicle if it needs to.
Guess this will work something like a drone.

Last Edited: 6/8/2017 3:36:34 PM by rpbobcat

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/9/2017 6:43:11 AM 
Don't know what made driverless vehicle stories so hot,but there's another article in the business section of today's The Record (www.northjersey.com ) about them.

The article talks about Honda's timeline (2025) for introducing a self driving vehicle.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/26/2017 6:34:32 AM 
There was an article in the paper over the weekend about the infrastructure needed for self driving cars.

One of the most important infrastructure components ?
Painted lines.
Apparently the cars' sensors need to able to "see" painted lines.

Around here we put in plowable reflectors so that, as lines fade,you can still distinguish lanes.
Apparently that won't work with self driving cars.
Their sensors can only follow actual painted lines.

That opens up a whole lot of issues since the responsibility for painting lines is "local" (Town,County State).
Even Interstates are maintained by the State D.O.T.'s.

Another issue is what do you do when it snows ?




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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/28/2017 8:55:22 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There was an article in the paper over the weekend about the infrastructure needed for self driving cars.

One of the most important infrastructure components ?
Painted lines.
Apparently the cars' sensors need to able to "see" painted lines.

Around here we put in plowable reflectors so that, as lines fade,you can still distinguish lanes.
Apparently that won't work with self driving cars.
Their sensors can only follow actual painted lines.

That opens up a whole lot of issues since the responsibility for painting lines is "local" (Town,County State).
Even Interstates are maintained by the State D.O.T.'s.

Another issue is what do you do when it snows ?






There is a very wide variety of sensors out there. Some are based on "sight" but there are a lot of different types used in these cars. One of the most interesting IMO (and something applicable to cars with human drivers) is radar that can detect living objects over hills, behind trees, around the bend etc... Some of my scariest moments driving have come from deer jumping in front of my car on some hilly back-road. I can't wait for my car to brake for me. I read an article recently that one company had sensors capable of detecting most animals but was having issues detecting Kangaroos because of their jumping motion. The technology isn't perfect (yet) but that is night and day ahead of where we were just a few years ago.

I also think it is interesting a lot of infrastructure improvements are not entirely necessary but will go a long way towards making this run smoother. For example most traffic lights will be connected to the web as well allowing them to exchange info with vehicles. Lots of possibilities to save people a lot of time with "smart" traffic lights. The technology advancements in driving will drastically change road infrastructure whether any one individual personally has a driverless car or not. I think Athens and Ohio University should be keeping these types of things in mind before spending significantly on parking or vehicle infrastructure that may very soon be obsolete.

Last Edited: 6/28/2017 8:59:04 AM by The Optimist


I've seen crazier things happen.

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/29/2017 6:49:50 AM 
The Optimist wrote:

I also think it is interesting a lot of infrastructure improvements are not entirely necessary but will go a long way towards making this run smoother. For example most traffic lights will be connected to the web as well allowing them to exchange info with vehicles. Lots of possibilities to save people a lot of time with "smart" traffic lights.



We're actually doing this now.

The traffic lights we install use cameras to see if there are vehicles on a "side street".
No vehicles,the primary road stays green.
The camera also "counts" the cars waiting and adjusts the green accordingly.

We also "sync" the lights along a traffic corridor to maintain traffic flow.

On main arteries we use webcams to monitor traffic from a central command center and can adjust lights depending on conditions.

There's also a system that allows buses to send out s radio signal to keep lights green for them and emergency vehicles to turn all signals red.
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Brian Smith
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/29/2017 11:09:27 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
There is a very wide variety of sensors out there. Some are based on "sight" but there are a lot of different types used in these cars. One of the most interesting IMO (and something applicable to cars with human drivers) is radar that can detect living objects over hills, behind trees, around the bend etc... Some of my scariest moments driving have come from deer jumping in front of my car on some hilly back-road. I can't wait for my car to brake for me. I read an article recently that one company had sensors capable of detecting most animals but was having issues detecting Kangaroos because of their jumping motion. The technology isn't perfect (yet) but that is night and day ahead of where we were just a few years ago.


I think the same sensor technology will dramatically reduce motorcycle and bicycle deaths and accidents. Having a car that senses the location of a motorcycle or bike and adjusts on its own instead of relying on the human eye to pick one out and the hand-eye coordination to be quick enough to avoid a collision will be a giant leap forward.

Last Edited: 6/29/2017 11:14:52 AM by Brian Smith


Been kicking up sparks/we set the flames free/The windows are locked now so what'll it be?/A house on fire or a rising sea?

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Vedder shifts his fire onto parking services
   Posted: 6/29/2017 1:31:25 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
There is a very wide variety of sensors out there. Some are based on "sight" but there are a lot of different types used in these cars. One of the most interesting IMO (and something applicable to cars with human drivers) is radar that can detect living objects over hills, behind trees, around the bend etc... Some of my scariest moments driving have come from deer jumping in front of my car on some hilly back-road. I can't wait for my car to brake for me. I read an article recently that one company had sensors capable of detecting most animals but was having issues detecting Kangaroos because of their jumping motion. The technology isn't perfect (yet) but that is night and day ahead of where we were just a few years ago.


I think the same sensor technology will dramatically reduce motorcycle and bicycle deaths and accidents. Having a car that senses the location of a motorcycle or bike and adjusts on its own instead of relying on the human eye to pick one out and the hand-eye coordination to be quick enough to avoid a collision will be a giant leap forward.



The easiest way to reduce motorcycle deaths is to not let motorcycles weave in and out of traffic.
Last year I was a 50 mph. highway.

Some guys in "crotch rockets" went blowing by me,weaving in and out out traffic.
One guy misjudged the distance between 2 cars.
Tried to adjust,lost control,the result wasn't pretty.

As for bicycles,just follow the "rule of the road" and if they don't,ticket them.


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