BobcatAttack.com - For Fans of Ohio University Sports

Welcome Guest!
Create an Account

site search

where to watch

about us

advertise with us

help

BobcatAttack.com Message Board

General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events

Topic: Ty Cobb not a racist

Topic: Ty Cobb not a racist

Author

Message

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/7/2016 1:55:08 PM

A few days ago I became aware of new evidence that an icon of Old South bigotry has been misrepresented by history. Believe it or not, Ty Cobb, was not a racist. In fact, he was decidedly the opposite. This is a good lesson in how history can be distorted and how it takes diligent, primary source research sometimes to find out that a commonly held belief is wrong. Here are two short paragraphs from a recent New York Times review of Charles Leerhsen�s new book, Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty:

�Leerhsen�s correctives are convincing, particularly his evidence against two of the more serious and persistent criticisms of Cobb: that he purposely endangered opponents by filing his shoe�s spikes to an extra-fine point before flying around the bases; and that he was notably racist, even for his time, with his many physical altercations often fueled by that animus.

�Cobb�s grandfather and great-�grandfather were staunchly antislavery, �Leerhsen notes, and his father could sometimes speak �a bit like Atticus Finch from To Kill a Mockingbird.� Cobb himself praised black players, including Roy Campanella and Willie Mays, and spoke out in favor of the sport�s integration. �The Negro should be accepted and not grudgingly but wholeheartedly,� he said in 1952. �Leerhsen�s book makes a persuasive argument that at the very least, Cobb�s irascibility was not motivated explicitly by race, and that certain fabled brawls chalked up to fervent bigotry may never have happened in the first place.� (Full review: http://tinyurl.com/hdg3ep5 )

Even more to the point here, a story based on a college speech given by Mr. Leerhsen printed in Imprimis, a publication of Hillsdale College, says the following:

�. . . Ty Cobb was the descendant of a long line of abolitionists. His great-grandfather was a minister who preached against slavery and was run out of town for it. His grandfather refused to fight in the Confederate army because of the slavery issue. And his father was an educator and state senator who spoke up for his black constituents and is known to have once broken up a lynch mob.�

The Imprimis article goes on to say that Cobb personally attended many Negro league ball games, sometimes was asked to throw out the first pitch, and often sat with the players in the dugout.

I don't know about you, but I'm glad to know that there's one less racist that our history books need to deal with. This whole scenario is also quite instructive about the need to go back and look at primary source material rather than just repeat material from secondary sources that may or may not bear much resemblance to reality.

I should add that our own Charles Alexander has had to admit that he engaged in shoddy scholarship on Cobb. He was, however, not alone. The whole baseball history establishment gets an "F" on this one.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Bobcatbob
General User

Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,341

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/9/2016 8:48:40 AM

I'm only left to wonder why anyone would have invented stories of racism in regard to Cobb in the first place? After all, he was heroic in stature in baseball during his lifetime. What would incent writers to perpetuate fables? Did his former teammates stand up for his reputation in the face of lies? Where is the evidence of their protests?

I'm sorry to say that this just strikes me as more revisionist history, which seems to be the new passion of activists and some journalists. It's too bad that the dead can't speak for themselves.

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/9/2016 8:02:53 PM

BobcatBob,

This type of thing happens more than you'd imagine. Why did the Lost Cause version of the Civil War take root, even while Union veterans were still alive, and then be perpetuated for several generations in our culture and in textbooks? It wasn't until about the last 25 years that this myth began to unravel. Primary source material proved it totally bogus. Why did most mainstream historians for so long rely on inaccurate secondary sources? A simplistic answer is that they had a certain bias that these secondary sources were inline with so there was no incentive to look deeper.

Perhaps teammates did speak up. Perhaps their statements were deemed not important enough to report widely. African Americans and some scholars protested the Lost Cause myth, but they were drowned out by the myth makers and promulgators.

I have not read the book but only a few reviews and a transcript of a speech on the topic by the author. Perhaps the book would answer your questions.

Your obedient servant,

OCF

P.S. That closing is one that was popular at the time of the Late Rebellion.

Andrew Ruck
General User

Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 4,699

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 8:25:04 AM

This is interesting to me, but also a bit silly. I've read a couple different books on Cobb before. A few quotes and family members that were abolitionists does not wipe out everything else. Why should we weigh these more heavily than the countless stories we have heard of his conduct on the field in particular?

It sounds to me like Cobb was like the average American. He was a racist growing up and as a young man in the first part of the century, but slowly had a change of heart and grew more compassionate for minorities as he aged and the country as a whole began to wake up.

My impression is Cobb was a good man who was insanely competitive and had a violent and unhealthy temper. In my opinion, being a racist in the early 1900's should not necessarily be held against someone in their legacy as it was very commonplace.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

UpSan Bobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/30/2005
Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
Post Count: 3,792

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 10:19:36 AM

Andrew Ruck wrote:

I think I agree with Andrew's assessment. Various things I've read and watched make it clear that Cobb had his faults. He definitely had a temper that led to violence. It's documented that he stabbed a man and beat another. I'm sure these incidents lead to people seeking out other ways in which Cobb might have been a "bad" person. Many probably were exaggerated.

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 11:35:55 AM

OCF special:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cody-cain/republicans-turn-... ?

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

DesignspiritUSA.com
The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

Bobcatbob
General User

Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,341

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 3:28:08 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

I'm certainly not tagging you with the spin or the viewpoint. I do find it immensely interesting that we can't help but sift through our history and, in doing so, it often turns out differently than anyone believed(s).

Entirely coincidentally (and God help me for doing this), today happens to be the day that Obama declares his intent to visit Hiroshima (but not the memorial). One can only imagine the damning that Harry Truman is about to endure and the furious debates that will ensue - only 70 years too late to help anyone.

Last Edited: 5/10/2016 3:28:29 PM by Bobcatbob

Kevin Finnegan
General User

Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 1,084

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 5:09:22 PM

I think the subject line is quite inaccurate. He was a racist in the definition that he didn't feel that blacks deserved the rights of whites. Was he the bigot to the level mentioned in Al Stump's book? Likely not. I remember taking class with Charles Alexander at OHIO and he could talk about Mr. Cobb, having written a biography on him. Cobb is undoubtedly fascinating, but it's hard to paint him in a good light. I would agree that it's a bit of revisionist history. I also don't think using the roles of one's father and grandfather to show their stance is that accurate.

Last Edited: 5/10/2016 5:15:11 PM by Kevin Finnegan

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/10/2016 11:57:24 PM

finnOhio wrote:

This author says that your statement is wrong -- that Cobb did think blacks deserved the same rights as whites. Note how strong his statement is about blacks in MLB. This was not just a mere concession, it was an outright strong advocacy. Also, the information about his attendance at many Negro League games, and sitting the dugout with the black players, paints an entirely different picture of Cobb than anything I had ever read in the past about the man. These facts, taken together, are evidence that perhaps Cobb was following in the footsteps of his father and grandfather, and did not possess views on race that might have been considered typical for that era.

Leerhsen also says that Alexander had it all wrong because he simply quoted inaccurate secondary sources. Alexander has admitted in one quote I saw that he may have gotten it wrong about Cobb. If this new book is correct in its assessment of Cobb, and I suspect that it is, it will generate a whole new wave of Cobb scholarship. This not to say the Cobb didn't have a temper and that he wasn't hyper-competitive, but those traits do not, per se, make one a racist.

Revisionist history comes in two general types. There is revisionist history that seeks to obfuscate the truth and substitute falsehhood for a previous more correct version. Good examples of this would be the aforementioned Lost Cause version of Civil War history or the many revisionist histories in the old Soviet Union that twisted some facts beyond recognition. Then there are revisionist histories that seek to supplant a twisted version of history with one that's more closely aligned with what actually happened at a particular time in history. Here we might cite as examples the efforts in the last twenty five years or so to supplant Lost Cause revisionism with a revisionist history that includes what David Blight has called the emancipationist memory which was almost completely wiped out when reconciliationist memory erased the contributions of slavery to the start of the war and the role of black soliders in ending the war (which Lincoln himself said was crucial to the Union victory). Thus the reconciliationist ended up supporting the white supremacist memory of the war.

Just like with the Cobb case, in order to see exactly what factors lead to the war and what the people were thinking during the war -- on both sides -- it was necessary to go back and look at primary sources that were contemporary to the war and the build up to the war. One example was the study by Charles Dew (Apostles of Disunion) that looked at the arguments during the time of secession as to the reason for secession -- overwhelmingly the need to preserve slavery. Previously, the emphasis had been on post-war writings of various folks like Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and host of other southern leaders that had downplayed slavery and emphasized a vague states' rights rational. I suspect that Leerhsen is playing a role not unlike Dew in bring to bear contemporary primary source material to replace later revisionism based on secondary sources removed in time from the actual events in question.

Last Edited: 5/11/2016 12:05:31 AM by OhioCatFan

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/11/2016 1:06:34 PM

Where are the contemporaneous quotes or photos showing lack of then-prevalent racism.

Believing what you want to again, here ??

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/11/2016 1:06:57 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

OCF special:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cody-cain/republicans-turn-... ?

L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,067

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/11/2016 8:36:44 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Where are the contemporaneous quotes or photos showing lack of then-prevalent racism.

Believing what you want to again, here ??

Did you even read the thread? If you want to disagree with the quoted author, as some here have done, that is certainly as option you could excercise, but to claim that he doesn't exist seems rather odd.

I personally have no opinion on whether Cobb was or wasn't a racist, but I would agree with OCF's general point that contemporary primary sources are most likely more accurate than later secondary sources.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 12:34:37 AM

Whatever.

I see one quote in 1952 against a 1) lifetime and solid history of guys who hated Cobb for who and what he was and 2) an about unanimous history (in writing and folklore) of Cobb being a racist and a jerk.

Y'know, we couldn't stand the s.o.b. when he was alive, and now that we're back on the field revived in dreams, we can do without him again.t

I like OCF. I really do. I like debating and discussing with Carl. But I find he often believes what suits his narrative, without regard for reasonably objective truth.

L.C.
General User

Member Since: 8/31/2005
Location: United States
Post Count: 10,067

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 10:19:18 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

So, you're saying that if we let guys that hate you write your history, that should be sufficient, and no one should dig deeper?

I have no opinion on Cobb at all. I note that no one seems to be disputing whether he was a "jerk" or a overly competitive. What seems to me to be happening is that they are researching what he actually did in his life, on the theory that actions speak louder than words.

Let's consider a hypothetical example, and make it the mirror image. Suppose that there was a player named "Bboc" that everyone liked, and that history written so far showed that he was a nice, pleasant person, and liked everyone, including blacks. Now suppose a historian discovered that he used to attend KKK meetings, and participated in lynchings, and that he had stated openly that no black belonged in MLB. Would you be open to consider that his behavior outweighed what people had previously said about him, and that maybe he was a racist after all?

My opinion is that looking at a person's behavior to try to understand his core beliefs is a reasonable approach, and certainly has at least as much merit as simply listening to what others said about him, particularly what others who didn't like him said about him.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 10:45:38 AM

Whatever.

Your hypothetical doesn't appear to apply here.

The bulk of history and contemporaneous sentiment and opinion was that he was a bad guy.

Summaries of the new book appear to do no more than possibly refute some of the incidents as involving black people. At best they absolve Cobb of specific incidents..while admitting that he carried race attitudes typical of Southern gentlemen at the time.

He certainly does not stand out as a non-racist.

And, the bio's point out the unrefuted apparent truth that Cobb became extreme emotionally after his mother killed his father. Part of that extreme being his raging hatred (for blacks and others) is credible.

Sorry. In politics, one side does a much better job of pushing its viewpoint than the other.

But that doesn't make that viewpoint the truth.

The truth is the truth.

It's pretty much the same analysis as re OHIO FOOTBALL. If you hold first and foremost to Solich as a splendid coach, then you'll miss the significance of those 3-4 crashing losses per year.

But that doesn't make the significance of those losses untrue.

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 11:20:32 AM

I finished a Ted Williams biography a week or so ago.

It seemed pretty objective. He could be a really cranky, hair-trigger bad temper guy. But he also had a very good side and their are many, many (contemporaneous and later) stories as well as pictures of him doing good deeds (Jimmy Fund, etc).

Where are the pics and stories and legendary patina of the wonderful deeds of Mr. Ty Cobb?

It's much more credible that he was typical of a Southerner of his ago..only more so due to his extreme temper and competitiveness. So, if he viewed non-whites as as less than full humans, it's credible that he carried that view in a more extreme way than most.

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 2:24:28 PM

A short video by Charles Leerhsen about 5 things you should know about Ty Cobb. I found it interesting. It seems he's trying to give an accurate picture of Cobb, warts and all. It covers some of the same ground we have in this thread, but it's interesting to see and hear the author rather than just read his words quoted in reviews:

http://tinyurl.com/zwa5shl

I find most of the discussion here interesting and I like the give and take on ideas and interpretations. I guess I'm going to have to buy this book and read it. Some may want to wait for what undoubtedly will be a TV mini-series or a block buster movie. ;-)

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/12/2016 2:36:10 PM

If you've got more time, here's the full talk that Charles Leerhsen gave at Hillsdale College about Ty Cobb:

http://tinyurl.com/zxoad9p

cc-cat
General User

Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,821

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/13/2016 6:55:30 PM

I don't know OCF - Ray Liotta wouldn't lie to us.....would he?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC-AqWYKixE

UpSan Bobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/30/2005
Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
Post Count: 3,792

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/17/2016 8:04:15 PM

Here's an MLB.com story, written by an OU grad, on the book:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/178601094/ty-cobb-history-b...

Last Edited: 5/18/2016 10:01:00 AM by UpSan Bobcat

OhioCatFan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline

RE: Ty Cobb not a racist

Posted: 5/17/2016 11:31:34 PM

Thanks for posting, UpSan. It's an interesting read and even mentions some of the misinformation that OHIO Prof. Alexander promulgated and mentions him by name.

For the basic subject of this thread, the following quote is central:

"We have zero evidence to suggest that Cobb was a racist. He was a Southerner, born in Georgia in 1886, and it has become easy to equate that upbringing to a racist bent. But Cobb's great-grandfather preached against slavery. His father was an advocate for the public education of black Americans. And Cobb himself was a vocal supporter of integration in baseball when asked about Jackie Robinson in 1952."

Showing Replies:	1 - 21 of 21 Posts
Jump to Page:	1

View Other 'General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events' Topics

There are 328 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com

328 Guests
0 Registered Users

There are no other users looking at this page.