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Topic:  Court Street limited to Pedestrians

Topic:  Court Street limited to Pedestrians
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The Optimist
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Location: CLE
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  Message Not Read  Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/26/2015 9:28:43 AM 
It has been discussed before on here... Quote from new mayor.

http://www.athensnews.com/news/local/q-a-with-new-mayor-p...

Quote:
A-NEWS: On the night that you were (unofficially) elected, you and I talked about the possibility of turning Court Street into a pedestrian corridor. I was hoping we could talk a little more about that, how (Athens) could accomplish that?

Patterson: “One way we could accomplish this would be to explore what has already been shut down or limited in terms of the traffic flow – with the Union Street fire, I think there is kind of a silver lining to the fire, not only for the business owners being able to rebuild and upgrade a lot of their properties but also the city street. We’ve been living with one lane of traffic and one side of parking for over a year… and I would like to explore redoing that whole streetscape once the construction is complete and possibly turning between Congress and Court Street on West Union… into a pedestrian plaza, still keeping traffic flow through there on one lane but putting up bollards and having it to where it's a green space/plaza for people to meet and mingle and enjoy… And so with that said, if that (pedestrian streetscape) can become a reality, it kind of gives us a bird’s eye view as to what it could look like if we were to imagine Court Street (as a pedestrian corridor) from end to end.”


My thoughts on this are simple: Awesome if you can pull it off. I think it is a risk worth taking but figuring out parking and traffic flow are certainly large hurdles.

Last Edited: 12/26/2015 9:31:42 AM by The Optimist

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/26/2015 10:35:26 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
It has been discussed before on here... Quote from new mayor.

http://www.athensnews.com/news/local/q-a-with-new-mayor-p...

Quote:
A-NEWS: On the night that you were (unofficially) elected, you and I talked about the possibility of turning Court Street into a pedestrian corridor. I was hoping we could talk a little more about that, how (Athens) could accomplish that?

Patterson: “One way we could accomplish this would be to explore what has already been shut down or limited in terms of the traffic flow – with the Union Street fire, I think there is kind of a silver lining to the fire, not only for the business owners being able to rebuild and upgrade a lot of their properties but also the city street. We’ve been living with one lane of traffic and one side of parking for over a year… and I would like to explore redoing that whole streetscape once the construction is complete and possibly turning between Congress and Court Street on West Union… into a pedestrian plaza, still keeping traffic flow through there on one lane but putting up bollards and having it to where it's a green space/plaza for people to meet and mingle and enjoy… And so with that said, if that (pedestrian streetscape) can become a reality, it kind of gives us a bird’s eye view as to what it could look like if we were to imagine Court Street (as a pedestrian corridor) from end to end.”


My thoughts on this are simple: Awesome if you can pull it off. I think it is a risk worth taking but figuring out parking and traffic flow are certainly large hurdles.


When I ran for city council earlier this year, this is an idea that I researched and developed and then floated during the campaign. Let's try Union Street first and see how it goes. There would be parking on the south side and one lane of traffic. We've had a year of this configuration already and motorists have adapted. What we haven't had is the pedestrian/dining/sitting area on the north side. Because there are no schools, churches or permanent residents in the area (the usual reasons given to ban outdoor dining and activities), there really shouldn't be a problem.
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MedinaCat
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Location: Lakewood, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/27/2015 1:04:08 PM 
Agreed Union Street would be a good place to try this out. I'd proposed diagonal parking on one side vs. parallel. This works in many town squares a cross the state and results in fewer and quicker disruptions to traffic flow.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/27/2015 5:37:43 PM 
MedinaCat wrote:
Agreed Union Street would be a good place to try this out. I'd proposed diagonal parking on one side vs. parallel. This works in many town squares a cross the state and results in fewer and quicker disruptions to traffic flow.


I design a lot of parking areas.
Having angled spaces that back directly into oncoming traffic create a number of safety problems.

We try to design angled spaces with a separate ingress/egress aisle.

What we've found are that "tandum" parallel spaces (2 spaces with a "gap" for maneuvering ) work really well in "Downtown" areas.
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Bobcatbob
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Location: Coolville, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/28/2015 10:03:23 AM 
How about just eliminating parking on Court & Union, bumping out the sidewalks and leaving through traffic lanes as they are? Oh, and where do we park then to enjoy these new spaces?

Despite the proliferation of pedestrian malls, Easton, here in Columbus, has gone the opposite way by allowing cars to wind through and park street-side. It works just fine and, for me, provides a great convenience when visiting a given restaurant or store as opposed to garage parking and walking back and forth. One large difference is there are no stop lights to cause long traffic queues in the "CBD" tempting people to dart out from between those parked cars.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/28/2015 11:02:17 AM 
Bobcatbob wrote:
How about just eliminating parking on Court & Union, bumping out the sidewalks and leaving through traffic lanes as they are? Oh, and where do we park then to enjoy these new spaces?

Despite the proliferation of pedestrian malls, Easton, here in Columbus, has gone the opposite way by allowing cars to wind through and park street-side. It works just fine and, for me, provides a great convenience when visiting a given restaurant or store as opposed to garage parking and walking back and forth. One large difference is there are no stop lights to cause long traffic queues in the "CBD" tempting people to dart out from between those parked cars.


Easton has always been the way it is today - it hasn't "gone the opposite way." In fact, Easton has added garages next to the Hilton and Crate and Barrel since it was first started. What's wrong with walking a bit? The problem is that not everyone can park in the front door of the place they want to visit.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/28/2015 1:41:54 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
MedinaCat wrote:
Agreed Union Street would be a good place to try this out. I'd proposed diagonal parking on one side vs. parallel. This works in many town squares a cross the state and results in fewer and quicker disruptions to traffic flow.


I design a lot of parking areas.
Having angled spaces that back directly into oncoming traffic create a number of safety problems.

We try to design angled spaces with a separate ingress/egress aisle.

What we've found are that "tandum" parallel spaces (2 spaces with a "gap" for maneuvering ) work really well in "Downtown" areas.



The tandum idea is interesting especially when you consider that Union Street is only 42 feet wide and diagonal parking would eat into that quite considerably. For the tandum concept, what are the dimension of each spot and what are the dimensions of the gap?
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/28/2015 5:32:12 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
MedinaCat wrote:
Agreed Union Street would be a good place to try this out. I'd proposed diagonal parking on one side vs. parallel. This works in many town squares a cross the state and results in fewer and quicker disruptions to traffic flow.


I design a lot of parking areas.
Having angled spaces that back directly into oncoming traffic create a number of safety problems.

We try to design angled spaces with a separate ingress/egress aisle.

What we've found are that "tandum" parallel spaces (2 spaces with a "gap" for maneuvering ) work really well in "Downtown" areas.



The tandum idea is interesting especially when you consider that Union Street is only 42 feet wide and diagonal parking would eat into that quite considerably. For the tandum concept, what are the dimension of each spot and what are the dimensions of the gap?



I've never seen a fixed "standard" for tandem parallel spaces.

We use a 19'-20' space with about a 5' box.
We do some variations depending on the length of the block to maximize spaces.

If you google "tandem parallel parking space' there are some pretty good schematics, but most don't have demensions.

If you want,PM me an email address and I'll see if I can find some dimensioned drawings to .pdf you.


Last Edited: 12/28/2015 5:35:42 PM by rpbobcat
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 12:17:01 AM 

I wonder what Jackie O's and Bdubs think.

I don't think you can lose all the parking if you tried Court Street.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 12:50:14 PM 
What would the business owners think of this? After all they are the primary stakeholders in this.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 1:02:32 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
What would the business owners think of this? After all they are the primary stakeholders in this.


To use a sports analogy, it's all about putting butts in seats and if widening of the north side leads to that, one would think the business owners would be pleased. But to be honest, I haven't asked any of them.

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 2:29:11 PM 
That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. There are dozens of examples of cities that tried the "pedestrian mall" concept only to discover that they were accelerating the decline of their central shopping districts.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 2:53:56 PM 
SBH wrote:
That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. There are dozens of examples of cities that tried the "pedestrian mall" concept only to discover that they were accelerating the decline of their central shopping districts.






I've worked on a couple of Downtown Revitalization Projects.

What we found:

1.Make the Downtown Business District (DBD) Pedestrian "Friendly" but you can't eliminate vehicular traffic.

2.If possible,use parallel,one-way streets.

3.Eliminate all on street parking.
BUT and its a big but,you must have enough parking areas in the immediate area of your DBD for people to park.
The parking areas can be surface lots or garages.
We did this in Hackensack N.J. by buying up a bunch of properties immeadiately behind the stores in the DBD then demolishing the buildings on them and building surface lots and a parking garage.
This would be virtually impossible in Athens.

For what its worth,from my perspective,compared to a lot of down towns,Athens is pretty vibrant.





Last Edited: 12/29/2015 2:54:38 PM by rpbobcat
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Mark Lembright '85
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Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Highland Heights, OH
Post Count: 2,447

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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 4:58:45 PM 
SBH wrote:
That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. There are dozens of examples of cities that tried the "pedestrian mall" concept only to discover that they were accelerating the decline of their central shopping districts.






SBH, you're an Akron-area person so I find your take interesting. I was just graduating from law school at Univ. of Akron in 1988 when they decided to turn Buchtel Ave., then a busy street running right through the Akron campus, into a pedestrian mall to make the campus more pedestrian and give it more of a residential campus feel to it. It seems for the most part to have been a successful transition for the campus and has worked out for everyone. However, closing that part of Buchtel Ave. didn't affect any other businesses that I'm aware of as it was only within the campus the street was closed and converted.

SBH, you don't think the same thing can work on Court Street? I'm just curious. At first blush I would think at least closing one block of Court Street in Athens could have a positive effect for Athens; the businesses there aren't going anywhere and the potential market they are selling to, i.e. the students, are static and aren't taking their business elsewhere, but maybe I'm wrong on that.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/29/2015 5:36:28 PM 
SBH wrote:
That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. There are dozens of examples of cities that tried the "pedestrian mall" concept only to discover that they were accelerating the decline of their central shopping districts.






The original proposal did not advocate closing any streets. Union in that one block has been down to one lane of parking on the south side and the one east bound lane of traffic for over a year now. My proposal is to keep it that way and to extend the sidewalk/pedestrian area on the north side out to near where the construction fences are now creating a modified pedestrian mall complete with plantings, benches and eating areas. Let's see how that works and then see if it makes sense to do the same or something similar on Court.

As for other cities, the two that I'm most familiar with are Burlington, VT and Charlottesville, VA and both downtown malls are thriving - of course they are bigger cities too.

And finally from a Memphis study:

Among the keys to a successful mall, the study concluded, are a varied mix of active uses and activities; a large population of “captive” users (such as downtown residents and workers); efficient public transit; strong anchors that draw pedestrians (popular stores and restaurants, for example); centralized, coordinated retail management; and a nearby college.

Kind of sounds like Athens.

Last Edited: 12/29/2015 5:49:09 PM by Alan Swank
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/30/2015 1:33:55 AM 
I don't think Athens compares AT ALL to the multiple CBD's that went the pedestrian route where it did not work out... Why? Because Athens is the college town of college towns. There are ALWAYS more people (mainly students) walking Court than there are people driving it. That area isn't dying as long as Ohio University remains. It can be enhanced...

Last Edited: 12/30/2015 1:37:15 AM by The Optimist

I've seen crazier things happen.

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Bobcatbob
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 12/30/2015 4:39:57 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Bobcatbob wrote:
How about just eliminating parking on Court & Union, bumping out the sidewalks and leaving through traffic lanes as they are? Oh, and where do we park then to enjoy these new spaces?

Despite the proliferation of pedestrian malls, Easton, here in Columbus, has gone the opposite way by allowing cars to wind through and park street-side. It works just fine and, for me, provides a great convenience when visiting a given restaurant or store as opposed to garage parking and walking back and forth. One large difference is there are no stop lights to cause long traffic queues in the "CBD" tempting people to dart out from between those parked cars.


Easton has always been the way it is today - it hasn't "gone the opposite way." In fact, Easton has added garages next to the Hilton and Crate and Barrel since it was first started. What's wrong with walking a bit? The problem is that not everyone can park in the front door of the place they want to visit.



I mean exactly that- Easton made a decision to ALLOW street parking AND traffic that seems to be workable for them and convenient for shoppers. There's nothing wrong with walking - unless you don't want to / don;t have to / don't have the ability to.

I was visiting Easton regularly before the place officially opened and was there for the Grand Opening. My kids have worked there off and on since that day - some still do. If you want any info about parking and driving around Easton or the history thereof, just let me know.
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Antonio Pierce
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/1/2016 8:43:25 PM 
The traffic flow on Court St should not be interrupted. It is the side streets /blocks which should be closed off to vehicles. Washington, State, and Union closures create less impact to parking and the feel you are searching for.

Don't let one day define the rest of your life.

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Toast
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 10:09:19 AM 
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.

Last Edited: 1/12/2016 10:14:21 AM by Toast

Ohio University-the original OU

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 2:27:55 PM 
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 3:19:46 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.




Can someone please explain the issue people have with this traffic circle? It's been easy to get through every time for me.

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 4:39:00 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.




Can someone please explain the issue people have with this traffic circle? It's been easy to get through every time for me.



Agreed. While initially a skeptic, I think it's great. Now the one on Union Street is a total mindbender. What a waste of cash money.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 9:31:11 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.




Can someone please explain the issue people have with this traffic circle? It's been easy to get through every time for me.



Circles create confusion as to who has the right of way.

They are inefficient compared to a signalized intersection.

They are also brutal on pedestrians, since most don't have the underground passage like Richland Avenue.
Then again, that underground passage increases noticeably the time you need to cross the circle.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/12/2016 9:53:32 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.




Can someone please explain the issue people have with this traffic circle? It's been easy to get through every time for me.



Circles create confusion as to who has the right of way.

They are inefficient compared to a signalized intersection.

They are also brutal on pedestrians, since most don't have the underground passage like Richland Avenue.
Then again, that underground passage increases noticeably the time you need to cross the circle.


There shouldn't be any confusion. You're making a right turn. Don't pull out in front of traffic already in the nearest quadrant. You have the same right to the circle as any other approaching traffic. Four cars could arrive at the intersection at the exact same time and all four should pass safely without stopping. That's the beauty of it. Don't hate it because some people don't get it. That's like hating books because some people can't read. Now, that said, it's frustrating because people stop when they don't need to (annoying) and some people go when they should yield (annoying and dangerous).

Last Edited: 1/12/2016 9:55:45 PM by Deciduous Forest Cat
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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Court Street limited to Pedestrians
   Posted: 1/13/2016 6:58:27 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Toast wrote:
Why not just install another retarded traffic circle.... surely that will solve everything.


And just how will deliveries be made to businesses on Court St?

When politicians want to fix the world run for the hills.


As an engineer I try to do everything I can to eliminate circles (roundabouts).

I have seen some circle designs that work,but the one they built on Richland Avenue is,at best a debacle.




Can someone please explain the issue people have with this traffic circle? It's been easy to get through every time for me.



Circles create confusion as to who has the right of way.

They are inefficient compared to a signalized intersection.

They are also brutal on pedestrians, since most don't have the underground passage like Richland Avenue.
Then again, that underground passage increases noticeably the time you need to cross the circle.


There shouldn't be any confusion. You're making a right turn. Don't pull out in front of traffic already in the nearest quadrant. You have the same right to the circle as any other approaching traffic. Four cars could arrive at the intersection at the exact same time and all four should pass safely without stopping. That's the beauty of it. Don't hate it because some people don't get it. That's like hating books because some people can't read. Now, that said, it's frustrating because people stop when they don't need to (annoying) and some people go when they should yield (annoying and dangerous).


I don't "hate" them.
Its just that, from a functional perspective,they don't work anywhere near as well as a signalized intersection.

I've been involved with various types of roadway design projects in North Jersey since the mid 1980's.
During that time I've worked on a bunch of projects to remove circles.

Never had a project to build a new one.
Also,never had a complaint when we replaced a circle with traffic signal.

Must mean something.




Last Edited: 1/13/2016 7:00:02 AM by rpbobcat
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