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Topic:  RE: Housing-gate continues

Topic:  RE: Housing-gate continues
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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/17/2018 10:44:55 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
The economy is complex and so are the job numbers. You canít just look at the unemployment rate and because it went down say the economy got better. The job numbers only are based on the amount of people looking for work. So you could have a high % of of the people looking for work employed, yet at the same time have a high % of your population not looking for work. If this is the case the jobs numbers will not reflect the state of employment in your country. Also even if you have a majority of your population looking for work, there could still be problems in the economy, which I think there are now. I think the cost of living has gone up significantly in this country, as well as the cost of doing business, and our country is in serious debt. Yet you donít hear this on the news.

This goes right back to my point about the debates being trash and why itís fake news. Too many times on the news and on our national presidential debates they bring up trash arguments about how, for example, the job numbers went down so our economy is doing great, therefor Obama is doing a great job with the economy. Vote for Democrats instead of republicans. Thatís such a surface level analysis of the economy and is not reflective of the experience Americans our having. We have to go more in debth with the debates we have on these issues. You canít just keep shoving these terrible arguments to the American people and expect them to be happy with how the news is.


Yes, I'm aware the unemployment rate is not the only metric that matters. And so is the media, whether you give them credit for that or not. I can link you to two dozen resources that provide detailed economic analysis.

But you're missing my point, which is not that the economy is great, or was under Obama. My point is that it's basically unchanged. I'm asking which economic indicators have changed year over year that justify the about face Trump supporters have done on the economy? My point isn't that because the unemployment rate is/was low, the economy is all roses. My point is that the economy isn't demonstrably different now than it was under Obama, so it's hard to understand why people who vote based on J-O-B-S (to quote The Optimist) are so pro-Trump and were so anti-Obama/Clinton. Hence my theory that it's a combination of rhetoric and confirmation bias.

Job growth's actually slowed a bit. Wages are growing, but most of that growth's concentrated at the top of the wage scale. The U6 rate has improved, but no faster than it was year over year during the Obama years. And if more of those folks who previously dropped out of the workforce come back, that's not going to be good news for wage growth.

So what's caused the sea change?


Yes youíre correct. Iím not saying you donít know that, Iím saying the people in the debates act like we both donít know that. Which is where the frustration on my part and others are with the news.

Thatís a debatable point you make about the pro trump anti-Obama/Clinton supporters. Youíre saying that the economy isnít demonstrably different now than it was under obama. Yes that may be true. Yet maybe that has nothing to do with why they voted for trump. Youíre assuming that is. Again the economy is complex and the reasons you mention about wages growing, the U6 rate improving, ect are just a few factors in a hyper complex economy. You canít just boil it down to those things. You ask why the seas have changed. I mentioned a few about the cost of business going up as well as the cost of living. Not to mention the ever increasing role technology is playing. There are a lot of ways the economy is changing and with all these changes people are struggling to adjust. Jobs that would have meant a solid living in the past donít anymore. For example In places like West Virginia where coal was the dominate industry, people are left without a way to make a living. Those people have to be retrained and the communities economy has to completely transform. With the cost of education thatís not a cheap thing to do and for many people they have to take out loans to afford all of this. Which puts stresses on households and family income on the long term. these complex issues arenít getting dealt with by the government because the debates are terrible and it leaves us with incompetent people getting voted in to run our country.



Just to be super clear, I'm not the one making the point that Trump voters exclusively voted for Trump because of the economy.

In fact, I'm making basically the opposite point. The Optimist noted that voters are motivated by the economy, almost exclusively, which historically is pretty accurate. The entire reason I brought any of this up was to point out that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between economic figures and Trump voters' opinion of the economy.


Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.
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OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 9,460

Status: Online

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/18/2018 12:02:10 AM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.


One of those variables is more take-home pay after the tax cuts went into effect in January.

There's also the non-economic factor that many working class folks feel that Trump has their back. Many of them feel he is putting the American worker first, and that his trade policies will eventually make their companies and themselves prosper more. I think that this is a very common perception among many labor families. This election, for better or worse, represented a seed change of sorts in that it broke up many facets of the old Democrat-Labor alliance that had been in place, almost unchanged, since the Great Depression. Many of these former Democrats are now identifying as independents leaning Republican or as Republican.

One other issue I'll bring up here related to the current state of partisan dialogue in this country. Many politicians tweeted and otherwise quoted Trump out of context in the following exchange with Sheriff Margaret Mims (Fresno, California):

Mims: "Thank you. There could be an MS-13 gang member I know about ó if they don't reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it."

Trump: "We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in ó and we're stopping a lot of them ó but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. And we're taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It's crazy.

"The dumbest laws, as I said before, the dumbest laws on immigration in the world. So we're going to take care of it, Margaret. We'll get it done."

Now it's clear from this context that Trump was calling MS-13 members "animals," not all immigrants. Yet, it didn't take more than a few minutes before many Democratic politicians were falling all over themselves to misquote him and to make it sound like he said all immigrants were animals. In all honesty, I've seen right-leaning politicians take the statements of Democrats all out of context, too, though this is one of the more egregious examples in recent months. This misquoting was so bad that it was not a mere mistake, it was intentional lying.

Let me add that I've listened to this exchange and it's even more clear on the audio what group Trump was talking about, but I think it's clear enough from the transcript above.

I'm currently at a conference and will have limited internet accessibility over the next few days so do not expect a timely response to any comment on this post.

Last Edited: 5/18/2018 12:04:07 AM by OhioCatFan


Got Frank . . . Got Dreams!
Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/18/2018 6:14:03 AM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
The economy is complex and so are the job numbers. You canít just look at the unemployment rate and because it went down say the economy got better. The job numbers only are based on the amount of people looking for work. So you could have a high % of of the people looking for work employed, yet at the same time have a high % of your population not looking for work. If this is the case the jobs numbers will not reflect the state of employment in your country. Also even if you have a majority of your population looking for work, there could still be problems in the economy, which I think there are now. I think the cost of living has gone up significantly in this country, as well as the cost of doing business, and our country is in serious debt. Yet you donít hear this on the news.

This goes right back to my point about the debates being trash and why itís fake news. Too many times on the news and on our national presidential debates they bring up trash arguments about how, for example, the job numbers went down so our economy is doing great, therefor Obama is doing a great job with the economy. Vote for Democrats instead of republicans. Thatís such a surface level analysis of the economy and is not reflective of the experience Americans our having. We have to go more in debth with the debates we have on these issues. You canít just keep shoving these terrible arguments to the American people and expect them to be happy with how the news is.


Yes, I'm aware the unemployment rate is not the only metric that matters. And so is the media, whether you give them credit for that or not. I can link you to two dozen resources that provide detailed economic analysis.

But you're missing my point, which is not that the economy is great, or was under Obama. My point is that it's basically unchanged. I'm asking which economic indicators have changed year over year that justify the about face Trump supporters have done on the economy? My point isn't that because the unemployment rate is/was low, the economy is all roses. My point is that the economy isn't demonstrably different now than it was under Obama, so it's hard to understand why people who vote based on J-O-B-S (to quote The Optimist) are so pro-Trump and were so anti-Obama/Clinton. Hence my theory that it's a combination of rhetoric and confirmation bias.

Job growth's actually slowed a bit. Wages are growing, but most of that growth's concentrated at the top of the wage scale. The U6 rate has improved, but no faster than it was year over year during the Obama years. And if more of those folks who previously dropped out of the workforce come back, that's not going to be good news for wage growth.

So what's caused the sea change?


Yes youíre correct. Iím not saying you donít know that, Iím saying the people in the debates act like we both donít know that. Which is where the frustration on my part and others are with the news.

Thatís a debatable point you make about the pro trump anti-Obama/Clinton supporters. Youíre saying that the economy isnít demonstrably different now than it was under obama. Yes that may be true. Yet maybe that has nothing to do with why they voted for trump. Youíre assuming that is. Again the economy is complex and the reasons you mention about wages growing, the U6 rate improving, ect are just a few factors in a hyper complex economy. You canít just boil it down to those things. You ask why the seas have changed. I mentioned a few about the cost of business going up as well as the cost of living. Not to mention the ever increasing role technology is playing. There are a lot of ways the economy is changing and with all these changes people are struggling to adjust. Jobs that would have meant a solid living in the past donít anymore. For example In places like West Virginia where coal was the dominate industry, people are left without a way to make a living. Those people have to be retrained and the communities economy has to completely transform. With the cost of education thatís not a cheap thing to do and for many people they have to take out loans to afford all of this. Which puts stresses on households and family income on the long term. these complex issues arenít getting dealt with by the government because the debates are terrible and it leaves us with incompetent people getting voted in to run our country.



Just to be super clear, I'm not the one making the point that Trump voters exclusively voted for Trump because of the economy.

In fact, I'm making basically the opposite point. The Optimist noted that voters are motivated by the economy, almost exclusively, which historically is pretty accurate. The entire reason I brought any of this up was to point out that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between economic figures and Trump voters' opinion of the economy.


Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.


And I'm asking for somebody to explain to me which economic indicators have changed so drastically year over year to explain the shift. You're suggesting the same thing I'm asking for an explanation of.

Last Edited: 5/18/2018 6:16:00 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/18/2018 6:36:55 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.


One of those variables is more take-home pay after the tax cuts went into effect in January.

There's also the non-economic factor that many working class folks feel that Trump has their back. Many of them feel he is putting the American worker first, and that his trade policies will eventually make their companies and themselves prosper more. I think that this is a very common perception among many labor families. This election, for better or worse, represented a seed change of sorts in that it broke up many facets of the old Democrat-Labor alliance that had been in place, almost unchanged, since the Great Depression. Many of these former Democrats are now identifying as independents leaning Republican or as Republican.

One other issue I'll bring up here related to the current state of partisan dialogue in this country. Many politicians tweeted and otherwise quoted Trump out of context in the following exchange with Sheriff Margaret Mims (Fresno, California):

Mims: "Thank you. There could be an MS-13 gang member I know about ó if they don't reach a certain threshold, I cannot tell ICE about it."

Trump: "We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in ó and we're stopping a lot of them ó but we're taking people out of the country. You wouldn't believe how bad these people are. These aren't people. These are animals. And we're taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that's never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It's crazy.

"The dumbest laws, as I said before, the dumbest laws on immigration in the world. So we're going to take care of it, Margaret. We'll get it done."



I think this actually supports my initial point, which is that much of Trump's support on the economy amongst his base has more to do with rhetoric and confirmation bias than actual economic growth.

It's undoubtedly right that many voters feel like he's got their back, but that's tied at this point mainly to campaign rhetoric. That, a year in, polling suggests that so many of his supporters believe he's already fixed the economy is pretty telling.

I mean, I think we can all agree that the tax cut, which adds about $8 per week for a 30k earner is unlikely to, on its own, shift an entire group's opinion of the economy. It's not nothing, but if Obama had pitched $8 a week as a solution to economic woe he'd have been drawn and quartered for being an out of touch elite.

As for the MS-13 quote, I think many people accepted it context free because it fit a perception of Trump that they have. It's one he's earned and cultivated though, so hard for me to hold it against folks who unquestioningly believed those initial reports. He has, in the past, called illegal immigrants rapists and criminals. He's referred to illegal immigration as "an infectious disease." He's consistently lied about the scope of the issue. He claimed there are 30 million illegal immigrants in the US; there's closer to 11 million. He's said immigrants flooded into the US during the Obama presidency to take advantage of DACA, which is a lie on two counts. Immigration is down 70% from it's 2000 high, and DACA eligibility only applies to immigrants who arrived pre-2007. Much of his rhetoric on immigration actively seeks to conflate immigration and crime. Are those lies somehow more acceptable coming from the President than a lie by the media regarding the context of Trump's statements yesterday?

I'd be happy to have a detailed conversation about the real size of the MS-13 threat relative to the attention paid to then by the President, and the impact that creating a scary "other" has on policy generally. But I sort of suspect it's not worth having. Tucker Carlson and others have already begun to frame the conversation in a typically stupid way, insisting that the left is now defending MS-13. Many on the left are simply saying that it's a dangerous path to categorize anybody as "not people" and that to pretend Trump's statements about MS-13 didn't take place within a broader campaign against immigration that has often been dishonest is more than a little bit disingenuous. Plenty of people mischaracterized the President's statements. Many others did not, and still find it abhorrent.

Multiple media sources got caught pushing an agenda. No argument there. But why don't Trump supporters care as much about Trump's lies?

Last Edited: 5/18/2018 11:32:24 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/18/2018 5:59:11 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
The economy is complex and so are the job numbers. You canít just look at the unemployment rate and because it went down say the economy got better. The job numbers only are based on the amount of people looking for work. So you could have a high % of of the people looking for work employed, yet at the same time have a high % of your population not looking for work. If this is the case the jobs numbers will not reflect the state of employment in your country. Also even if you have a majority of your population looking for work, there could still be problems in the economy, which I think there are now. I think the cost of living has gone up significantly in this country, as well as the cost of doing business, and our country is in serious debt. Yet you donít hear this on the news.

This goes right back to my point about the debates being trash and why itís fake news. Too many times on the news and on our national presidential debates they bring up trash arguments about how, for example, the job numbers went down so our economy is doing great, therefor Obama is doing a great job with the economy. Vote for Democrats instead of republicans. Thatís such a surface level analysis of the economy and is not reflective of the experience Americans our having. We have to go more in debth with the debates we have on these issues. You canít just keep shoving these terrible arguments to the American people and expect them to be happy with how the news is.


Yes, I'm aware the unemployment rate is not the only metric that matters. And so is the media, whether you give them credit for that or not. I can link you to two dozen resources that provide detailed economic analysis.

But you're missing my point, which is not that the economy is great, or was under Obama. My point is that it's basically unchanged. I'm asking which economic indicators have changed year over year that justify the about face Trump supporters have done on the economy? My point isn't that because the unemployment rate is/was low, the economy is all roses. My point is that the economy isn't demonstrably different now than it was under Obama, so it's hard to understand why people who vote based on J-O-B-S (to quote The Optimist) are so pro-Trump and were so anti-Obama/Clinton. Hence my theory that it's a combination of rhetoric and confirmation bias.

Job growth's actually slowed a bit. Wages are growing, but most of that growth's concentrated at the top of the wage scale. The U6 rate has improved, but no faster than it was year over year during the Obama years. And if more of those folks who previously dropped out of the workforce come back, that's not going to be good news for wage growth.

So what's caused the sea change?


Yes youíre correct. Iím not saying you donít know that, Iím saying the people in the debates act like we both donít know that. Which is where the frustration on my part and others are with the news.

Thatís a debatable point you make about the pro trump anti-Obama/Clinton supporters. Youíre saying that the economy isnít demonstrably different now than it was under obama. Yes that may be true. Yet maybe that has nothing to do with why they voted for trump. Youíre assuming that is. Again the economy is complex and the reasons you mention about wages growing, the U6 rate improving, ect are just a few factors in a hyper complex economy. You canít just boil it down to those things. You ask why the seas have changed. I mentioned a few about the cost of business going up as well as the cost of living. Not to mention the ever increasing role technology is playing. There are a lot of ways the economy is changing and with all these changes people are struggling to adjust. Jobs that would have meant a solid living in the past donít anymore. For example In places like West Virginia where coal was the dominate industry, people are left without a way to make a living. Those people have to be retrained and the communities economy has to completely transform. With the cost of education thatís not a cheap thing to do and for many people they have to take out loans to afford all of this. Which puts stresses on households and family income on the long term. these complex issues arenít getting dealt with by the government because the debates are terrible and it leaves us with incompetent people getting voted in to run our country.



Just to be super clear, I'm not the one making the point that Trump voters exclusively voted for Trump because of the economy.

In fact, I'm making basically the opposite point. The Optimist noted that voters are motivated by the economy, almost exclusively, which historically is pretty accurate. The entire reason I brought any of this up was to point out that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between economic figures and Trump voters' opinion of the economy.


Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.


And I'm asking for somebody to explain to me which economic indicators have changed so drastically year over year to explain the shift. You're suggesting the same thing I'm asking for an explanation of.



I literally just gave you multiple ways it has changed.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/18/2018 6:33:38 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
The economy is complex and so are the job numbers. You canít just look at the unemployment rate and because it went down say the economy got better. The job numbers only are based on the amount of people looking for work. So you could have a high % of of the people looking for work employed, yet at the same time have a high % of your population not looking for work. If this is the case the jobs numbers will not reflect the state of employment in your country. Also even if you have a majority of your population looking for work, there could still be problems in the economy, which I think there are now. I think the cost of living has gone up significantly in this country, as well as the cost of doing business, and our country is in serious debt. Yet you donít hear this on the news.

This goes right back to my point about the debates being trash and why itís fake news. Too many times on the news and on our national presidential debates they bring up trash arguments about how, for example, the job numbers went down so our economy is doing great, therefor Obama is doing a great job with the economy. Vote for Democrats instead of republicans. Thatís such a surface level analysis of the economy and is not reflective of the experience Americans our having. We have to go more in debth with the debates we have on these issues. You canít just keep shoving these terrible arguments to the American people and expect them to be happy with how the news is.


Yes, I'm aware the unemployment rate is not the only metric that matters. And so is the media, whether you give them credit for that or not. I can link you to two dozen resources that provide detailed economic analysis.

But you're missing my point, which is not that the economy is great, or was under Obama. My point is that it's basically unchanged. I'm asking which economic indicators have changed year over year that justify the about face Trump supporters have done on the economy? My point isn't that because the unemployment rate is/was low, the economy is all roses. My point is that the economy isn't demonstrably different now than it was under Obama, so it's hard to understand why people who vote based on J-O-B-S (to quote The Optimist) are so pro-Trump and were so anti-Obama/Clinton. Hence my theory that it's a combination of rhetoric and confirmation bias.

Job growth's actually slowed a bit. Wages are growing, but most of that growth's concentrated at the top of the wage scale. The U6 rate has improved, but no faster than it was year over year during the Obama years. And if more of those folks who previously dropped out of the workforce come back, that's not going to be good news for wage growth.

So what's caused the sea change?


Yes youíre correct. Iím not saying you donít know that, Iím saying the people in the debates act like we both donít know that. Which is where the frustration on my part and others are with the news.

Thatís a debatable point you make about the pro trump anti-Obama/Clinton supporters. Youíre saying that the economy isnít demonstrably different now than it was under obama. Yes that may be true. Yet maybe that has nothing to do with why they voted for trump. Youíre assuming that is. Again the economy is complex and the reasons you mention about wages growing, the U6 rate improving, ect are just a few factors in a hyper complex economy. You canít just boil it down to those things. You ask why the seas have changed. I mentioned a few about the cost of business going up as well as the cost of living. Not to mention the ever increasing role technology is playing. There are a lot of ways the economy is changing and with all these changes people are struggling to adjust. Jobs that would have meant a solid living in the past donít anymore. For example In places like West Virginia where coal was the dominate industry, people are left without a way to make a living. Those people have to be retrained and the communities economy has to completely transform. With the cost of education thatís not a cheap thing to do and for many people they have to take out loans to afford all of this. Which puts stresses on households and family income on the long term. these complex issues arenít getting dealt with by the government because the debates are terrible and it leaves us with incompetent people getting voted in to run our country.



Just to be super clear, I'm not the one making the point that Trump voters exclusively voted for Trump because of the economy.

In fact, I'm making basically the opposite point. The Optimist noted that voters are motivated by the economy, almost exclusively, which historically is pretty accurate. The entire reason I brought any of this up was to point out that there doesn't seem to be much correlation between economic figures and Trump voters' opinion of the economy.


Yes Iím saying that maybe the economic indicators youíre using might not be the same as the optimist. You are siting a few specific economic indicators when there are a lot more economic varibles that are effecting the economy. Maybe trump appeals to other variables youíre not bringing up.


And I'm asking for somebody to explain to me which economic indicators have changed so drastically year over year to explain the shift. You're suggesting the same thing I'm asking for an explanation of.



I literally just gave you multiple ways it has changed.


You actually didn't. You actually just showed you haven't been able to follow the conversation.

These examples:

TheBobcatBandit wrote:

I mentioned a few about the cost of business going up as well as the cost of living.


TheBobcatBandit wrote:

Jobs that would have meant a solid living in the past donít anymore. For example In places like West Virginia where coal was the dominate industry, people are left without a way to make a living. Those people have to be retrained and the communities economy has to completely transform. With the cost of education thatís not a cheap thing to do and for many people they have to take out loans to afford all of this. Which puts stresses on households and family income on the long term.


Do not address my point in any way. They're examples of why people were frustrated with the economy and voted for Trump. I understand that.

In order to address my point, you'd have to provide examples of how those things have changed since Trump was elected. You are supporting my point by referencing economic issues that are the same today as they were 16 months ago.

My point is simple: the economy hasnt drastically changed over the last 16 months, yet Trump voters' opinion of the economy has changed drastically. I'm not saying that they changed during the course of the Obama administration. I'm not saying that didn't have justifiable reasons to lack confidence in the economy during the Obama administration. I'm saying that since Trump was elected, polling indicates that those same people feel the economy has drastically improved. I'm asking why they feel it's improved and which indicators support that.

All you've said is that the economy is complex and includes many indicators. You havent provided any examples of indicators that have changed in a way that would explain the change in opinion we've seen in Trump voters.

So again, because you're not keeping up: we are in agreement that there are plenty of economic indicators that help explain why Trump voters were unhappy during the Obama administration. What I'm asking now, is which indicators have changed and led to their newfound confidence in the economy?

Here's a hint: the answer is not a list of things that are currently wrong with the economy.

Last Edited: 5/18/2018 7:03:07 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/21/2018 7:35:58 PM 
I canít say for certain because Iím not a trump supporter, but I would guess they would be happy about tax cuts as well as deregulation. Also bringing some manufacturing back, or at least talking about it makes some happy. Beyond that Iím not sure. Maybe others can elaborate on why theyíre happy with the economy now.
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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,093

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/22/2018 11:00:58 AM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
I canít say for certain because Iím not a trump supporter, but I would guess they would be happy about tax cuts as well as deregulation. Also bringing some manufacturing back, or at least talking about it makes some happy. Beyond that Iím not sure. Maybe others can elaborate on why theyíre happy with the economy now.


So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 1,975

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/22/2018 11:38:20 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.





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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,093

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/22/2018 5:10:49 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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TheBobcatBandit
General User



Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/23/2018 10:05:18 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?

Last Edited: 5/23/2018 10:07:28 AM by TheBobcatBandit

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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,093

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/23/2018 4:49:08 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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TheBobcatBandit
General User



Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/23/2018 10:42:07 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.

Last Edited: 5/23/2018 10:42:27 PM by TheBobcatBandit

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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,093

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 10:11:42 AM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.


You keep using the term fake news to refer to things that aren't even news. The first link is an opinion piece from a senior Republican policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The second is an opinion piece from a center-left leaning economist. The third is research conducted by a center-left think tank, and the fourth is research conducted by Brookings--a non-partisan think tank which is widely considered by both conservatives and liberals to be the most prestigious think tank in the world. If I provide you with four links to pieces from people from across the political spectrum who are experts in their field and your response is "fake news" then you are just as much a part of the problem as Trump.


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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TheBobcatBandit
General User



Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 10:57:56 AM 
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.


You keep using the term fake news to refer to things that aren't even news. The first link is an opinion piece from a senior Republican policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The second is an opinion piece from a center-left leaning economist. The third is research conducted by a center-left think tank, and the fourth is research conducted by Brookings--a non-partisan think tank which is widely considered by both conservatives and liberals to be the most prestigious think tank in the world. If I provide you with four links to pieces from people from across the political spectrum who are experts in their field and your response is "fake news" then you are just as much a part of the problem as Trump.



They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 11:08:37 AM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.


You keep using the term fake news to refer to things that aren't even news. The first link is an opinion piece from a senior Republican policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The second is an opinion piece from a center-left leaning economist. The third is research conducted by a center-left think tank, and the fourth is research conducted by Brookings--a non-partisan think tank which is widely considered by both conservatives and liberals to be the most prestigious think tank in the world. If I provide you with four links to pieces from people from across the political spectrum who are experts in their field and your response is "fake news" then you are just as much a part of the problem as Trump.



They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.



You: "Opinions are fake. I want facts. Also, look, Elon Musk has an opinion."


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TheBobcatBandit
General User



Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 12:15:34 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.


You keep using the term fake news to refer to things that aren't even news. The first link is an opinion piece from a senior Republican policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The second is an opinion piece from a center-left leaning economist. The third is research conducted by a center-left think tank, and the fourth is research conducted by Brookings--a non-partisan think tank which is widely considered by both conservatives and liberals to be the most prestigious think tank in the world. If I provide you with four links to pieces from people from across the political spectrum who are experts in their field and your response is "fake news" then you are just as much a part of the problem as Trump.



They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.



You: "Opinions are fake. I want facts. Also, look, Elon Musk has an opinion."




Lol no, Elon musk and I are stating a fact that the news doesnít present facts, they present opinions. Not only do they present opinions but they actively present the wrong opinion and then act like itís fact.

Itís becoming more and more clear the media canít take criticism.

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finnOhio
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Location: Rockton, IL
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  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 12:32:29 PM 
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/23/leslie...

The President...whatever you may think of him, he's not a dummy. He knows what he's doing, and he's doing this part well. He's convinced people that the media is fake. Why, so that when they write things to discredit him or criticize him, it's fake.

"LESLEY STAHL: It's just me, my boss, and him -- he has a huge office -- and he's attacking the press. There were no cameras, there was nothing going on and I said, 'That is getting tired, why are you doing it? You're doing it over and over and it's boring. It's time to end that, you've won the nomination. And why do you keep hammering at this?'
And he said: 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.'

So, put that in your head for a minute."

Now, he's doing that with the FBI, the 'Deep State', so that they are discredited if they come out with anything negative about him. Just recently, it was reported that 53% of Americans think that the Independent Counsel is politically driven. That he's done such a good job of discrediting them that more than half the country questions the legitimacy is a remarkable feat.

I'd say that he's as powerful a president as I've seen in my lifetime. As to whether that power is for good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. Just know that every time you use the term 'fake news' or 'deep state', you're playing into his hand and into his game. You're delegitimizing an industry of great reporters who seek truth in our democracy. You're delegitimizing individuals who have dedicated themselves to civil service and are upholding the laws of our country. These things frighten me.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

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  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 12:36:28 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:

So $5 more in their pocket each week is the big difference maker? Even though it is offset and then some by higher prices thanks to his other policies? I think you're proving the point. Nothing has actually changed about the economy.


Let me preface this by saying my comments are based on my experiences only.

Based on last week's payroll,my employees are averaging a $10.00-$15.00 a week increase in take home pay,over what they were making,pre tax cut.

We do land surveying.
For the past several years that work has been slow.

Around here a survey is required to get the permits to do any work on your property including an addition,driveway,patio etc.
Over the past year we've seen a marked increase (50% +) in that work.
So people feel confident enough to spend money on upgrading their properties.

Same thing, we do surveys for property purchases.
We're up about 30% in that area in the past year.

We were involved with 2 major development projects.
They've been on hold since 2012.
Now the owners are moving forward with both of them.

So,from my perspective,the economy has improved under President Trump.



As you know, I also work in the general field of development. For several years reviewing land development plans and now analyzing demographic data and trends. None of the counties I work in or have worked in have seen any change over the existing trends that have been ongoing for several years. No uptick in permits for patios, pools, additions, etc. No uptick in housing building permits. No uptick in subdivisions. It's all the same as it has been. So one of our experiences is an anomaly. My data spans four states and several counties. It seems to me like you've just had a good year and that it actually has nothing to do with larger trends.




You canít just discount his personal experience. Based on his data, the economy in his area is improving under trump. By just brushing that away and saying he is wrong because your data is different doesnít help or magically change his mind.

Why is your data different. Are you measuring the same area as the one he lives in? If so why are your numbers opposite of eachothers? If not then what is different about the two areas? Maybe trumps policy helps some areas but doesnít help others. Also what are you using to measure the data? Maybe the measures arenít accurately reflecting whatís actually happening with the economy. Without knowing those details I canít come up with the same conclusion you did, that itís just him having a good year and has nothing to do with the larger trends.

Logically what RP is saying makes sense. When you lower taxes the economy is going to 100% get a boost in the short term. People will have more disposable income to spend so it would make sense that there would be more work. Also Iím sure those 15-20 $ a week his employees and other employees take home would add up with time. Now in the long term who knows how the tax cuts will pan out. More needs to be done to really transform the economy but for now why would it be so hard to believe that the tax cuts trump passed helped the economy?


My point wasn't to say he was lying or that his experience isn't reflective of reality. Obviously it is his reality. My point is that he is one business and I work with the same data at a larger scale and there has been no change at that larger scale. I'm just providing perspective. The more data the better.

As for your last question, let's look to the data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/201...

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/republicans-don-t-u...

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/tax-cuts-for-th...

https://www.brookings.edu/research/effects-of-income-tax-... /


Ok I see what youíre trying to say but I would need to see your data to conclude like you did that his good year had nothing to do with the larger trends. Iím not saying youíre wrong, just saying I would need to see the data.

And Lmao these are the fakest news articles I have ever seeen. Talk about the editors/writers cherry picking data to support a political point. I have zero faith that these news companies understand the economy. By the way, check Elon musk Twitter, he agrees about fake news.


You keep using the term fake news to refer to things that aren't even news. The first link is an opinion piece from a senior Republican policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and George Bush. The second is an opinion piece from a center-left leaning economist. The third is research conducted by a center-left think tank, and the fourth is research conducted by Brookings--a non-partisan think tank which is widely considered by both conservatives and liberals to be the most prestigious think tank in the world. If I provide you with four links to pieces from people from across the political spectrum who are experts in their field and your response is "fake news" then you are just as much a part of the problem as Trump.



They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.



You: "Opinions are fake. I want facts. Also, look, Elon Musk has an opinion."




Lol no, Elon musk and I are stating a fact that the news doesnít present facts, they present opinions. Not only do they present opinions but they actively present the wrong opinion and then act like itís fact.

Itís becoming more and more clear the media canít take criticism.



Okay, cool. Show your work. Let's dig into coverage of Tesla and see where the media presented opinion as fact. Provide some examples.

It's a fact that the news doesn't present facts. That should be easily demonstrated then. Knock yourself out. Feel free to enlist the help of your buddy Elon.

Last Edited: 5/24/2018 12:39:58 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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DelBobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,093

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  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 2:08:21 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:


They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.



I honestly don't know if you're serious or just trolling. Two of the four of those were opinion pieces but they clearly cited the facts that they based their opinions on. Did you even read them? Also, all opinions are not created equal. Your opinion, given with ZERO facts to back it up, is not equal to the opinion of economists and policy researchers who have devoted their entire lives to studying these issues. I didn't just say your opinion is wrong, I gave you two respected experts saying your opinion is wrong and citing REAL FACTS to back up that assertion.

As for Elon, I have no idea why he uses the term. I know nothing about Elon Musk, other than the fact that he runs Tesla and has lofty ambitions and some out there ideas on some issues. Why would I care more about what he thinks than anyone else? Because he has money? Maybe he has valid critiques of the media, I wouldn't know. But what does that even have to do with the fact that you were just presented with a ton of FACTS and, without even explaining why you thought the authors were misinterpreting those facts, you just screamed FAKE NEWS?


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 4:25:19 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/23/leslie...

The President...whatever you may think of him, he's not a dummy. He knows what he's doing, and he's doing this part well. He's convinced people that the media is fake. Why, so that when they write things to discredit him or criticize him, it's fake.

"LESLEY STAHL: It's just me, my boss, and him -- he has a huge office -- and he's attacking the press. There were no cameras, there was nothing going on and I said, 'That is getting tired, why are you doing it? You're doing it over and over and it's boring. It's time to end that, you've won the nomination. And why do you keep hammering at this?'
And he said: 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.'

So, put that in your head for a minute."

Now, he's doing that with the FBI, the 'Deep State', so that they are discredited if they come out with anything negative about him. Just recently, it was reported that 53% of Americans think that the Independent Counsel is politically driven. That he's done such a good job of discrediting them that more than half the country questions the legitimacy is a remarkable feat.

I'd say that he's as powerful a president as I've seen in my lifetime. As to whether that power is for good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. Just know that every time you use the term 'fake news' or 'deep state', you're playing into his hand and into his game. You're delegitimizing an industry of great reporters who seek truth in our democracy. You're delegitimizing individuals who have dedicated themselves to civil service and are upholding the laws of our country. These things frighten me.


Quoting this so it doesn't get lost. This perfectly illustrates the complete stupidity of the Right's fight against "fake news media."

OhioCatFan's downright aghast when NBC posts a video of Trump talking about MS-13 lacking context, or when Politifact is inconsistent in their analysis. But when Trump, with the entire apparatus of the right-wing media machine behind him, pushes a lie about a Spy infiltrating his campaign? Crickets.

This article explains it well: https://www.gq.com/story/spygate-conspiracy-theory-explained . From a single paragraph in a WSJ op-ed to a full blown conspiracy theory in a matter of days.

Meanwhile, the Mueller investigation chugs along. Roger Stone sent an email request to Julian Assange for emails from a particular day -- and withheld those emails from congressional investigators. And Cohen accepted 400k from Ukraine to set up a meeting between Trump and the Ukrainian President. The day after the meeting, Ukraine ceased cooperating with Mueller's investigation and got a sweet missile deal out of it. Don Jr., it turns out, also took meetings with folks from the UAE and Saudi Arabia who offered to help his father win the election.

Tons of smoke. Several indictments. No logical way to argue otherwise. And half of America just plugs their ears and insists none of this is real.

Last Edited: 5/24/2018 4:51:24 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 5:08:04 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/23/leslie...

The President...whatever you may think of him, he's not a dummy. He knows what he's doing, and he's doing this part well. He's convinced people that the media is fake. Why, so that when they write things to discredit him or criticize him, it's fake.

"LESLEY STAHL: It's just me, my boss, and him -- he has a huge office -- and he's attacking the press. There were no cameras, there was nothing going on and I said, 'That is getting tired, why are you doing it? You're doing it over and over and it's boring. It's time to end that, you've won the nomination. And why do you keep hammering at this?'
And he said: 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.'

So, put that in your head for a minute."

Now, he's doing that with the FBI, the 'Deep State', so that they are discredited if they come out with anything negative about him. Just recently, it was reported that 53% of Americans think that the Independent Counsel is politically driven. That he's done such a good job of discrediting them that more than half the country questions the legitimacy is a remarkable feat.

I'd say that he's as powerful a president as I've seen in my lifetime. As to whether that power is for good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. Just know that every time you use the term 'fake news' or 'deep state', you're playing into his hand and into his game. You're delegitimizing an industry of great reporters who seek truth in our democracy. You're delegitimizing individuals who have dedicated themselves to civil service and are upholding the laws of our country. These things frighten me.



Look Iím not saying trump is a good guy. In fact heís a terrible guy. He is a terrible president. Yet, as Iíve stated, that has nothing to do with the topic of the quality of news. In fact the sooner we get a higher quality of news the higher chance there will be to be able to get someone better in office. Trump is a symptom not the root of the problem. The sooner the people in the media and people on the left understand that, the sooner things will get better.
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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

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  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 5:13:08 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/23/leslie...

The President...whatever you may think of him, he's not a dummy. He knows what he's doing, and he's doing this part well. He's convinced people that the media is fake. Why, so that when they write things to discredit him or criticize him, it's fake.

"LESLEY STAHL: It's just me, my boss, and him -- he has a huge office -- and he's attacking the press. There were no cameras, there was nothing going on and I said, 'That is getting tired, why are you doing it? You're doing it over and over and it's boring. It's time to end that, you've won the nomination. And why do you keep hammering at this?'
And he said: 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.'

So, put that in your head for a minute."

Now, he's doing that with the FBI, the 'Deep State', so that they are discredited if they come out with anything negative about him. Just recently, it was reported that 53% of Americans think that the Independent Counsel is politically driven. That he's done such a good job of discrediting them that more than half the country questions the legitimacy is a remarkable feat.

I'd say that he's as powerful a president as I've seen in my lifetime. As to whether that power is for good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. Just know that every time you use the term 'fake news' or 'deep state', you're playing into his hand and into his game. You're delegitimizing an industry of great reporters who seek truth in our democracy. You're delegitimizing individuals who have dedicated themselves to civil service and are upholding the laws of our country. These things frighten me.


Quoting this so it doesn't get lost. This perfectly illustrates the complete stupidity of the Right's fight against "fake news media."

OhioCatFan's downright aghast when NBC posts a video of Trump talking about MS-13 lacking context, or when Politifact is inconsistent in their analysis. But when Trump, with the entire apparatus of the right-wing media machine behind him, pushes a lie about a Spy infiltrating his campaign? Crickets.

This article explains it well: https://www.gq.com/story/spygate-conspiracy-theory-explained . From a single paragraph in a WSJ op-ed to a full blown conspiracy theory in a matter of days.

Meanwhile, the Mueller investigation chugs along. Roger Stone sent an email request to Julian Assange for emails from a particular day -- and withheld those emails from congressional investigators. And Cohen accepted 400k from Ukraine to set up a meeting between Trump and the Ukrainian President. The day after the meeting, Ukraine ceased cooperating with Mueller's investigation and got a sweet missile deal out of it. Don Jr., it turns out, also took meetings with folks from the UAE and Saudi Arabia who offered to help his father win the election.

Tons of smoke. Several indictments. No logical way to argue otherwise. And half of America just plugs their ears and insists none of this is real.


Letís say those things are true, what does that have to do with the quality of media. Canít all that be true and the media still have flaws?

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 861

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 5:37:08 PM 
TheBobcatBandit wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/05/23/leslie...

The President...whatever you may think of him, he's not a dummy. He knows what he's doing, and he's doing this part well. He's convinced people that the media is fake. Why, so that when they write things to discredit him or criticize him, it's fake.

"LESLEY STAHL: It's just me, my boss, and him -- he has a huge office -- and he's attacking the press. There were no cameras, there was nothing going on and I said, 'That is getting tired, why are you doing it? You're doing it over and over and it's boring. It's time to end that, you've won the nomination. And why do you keep hammering at this?'
And he said: 'You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.'

So, put that in your head for a minute."

Now, he's doing that with the FBI, the 'Deep State', so that they are discredited if they come out with anything negative about him. Just recently, it was reported that 53% of Americans think that the Independent Counsel is politically driven. That he's done such a good job of discrediting them that more than half the country questions the legitimacy is a remarkable feat.

I'd say that he's as powerful a president as I've seen in my lifetime. As to whether that power is for good or evil is in the eye of the beholder. Just know that every time you use the term 'fake news' or 'deep state', you're playing into his hand and into his game. You're delegitimizing an industry of great reporters who seek truth in our democracy. You're delegitimizing individuals who have dedicated themselves to civil service and are upholding the laws of our country. These things frighten me.


Quoting this so it doesn't get lost. This perfectly illustrates the complete stupidity of the Right's fight against "fake news media."

OhioCatFan's downright aghast when NBC posts a video of Trump talking about MS-13 lacking context, or when Politifact is inconsistent in their analysis. But when Trump, with the entire apparatus of the right-wing media machine behind him, pushes a lie about a Spy infiltrating his campaign? Crickets.

This article explains it well: https://www.gq.com/story/spygate-conspiracy-theory-explained . From a single paragraph in a WSJ op-ed to a full blown conspiracy theory in a matter of days.

Meanwhile, the Mueller investigation chugs along. Roger Stone sent an email request to Julian Assange for emails from a particular day -- and withheld those emails from congressional investigators. And Cohen accepted 400k from Ukraine to set up a meeting between Trump and the Ukrainian President. The day after the meeting, Ukraine ceased cooperating with Mueller's investigation and got a sweet missile deal out of it. Don Jr., it turns out, also took meetings with folks from the UAE and Saudi Arabia who offered to help his father win the election.

Tons of smoke. Several indictments. No logical way to argue otherwise. And half of America just plugs their ears and insists none of this is real.


Letís say those things are true, what does that have to do with the quality of media. Canít all that be true and the media still have flaws?



Honestly man, be smarter. Your reading comprehension is terrible. You and I have gone through this at length. We have agreed about many of the media's flaws. That you are still trying to frame this in such simplistic 'good versus bad' terms is telling. Where we disagree is the extent of the problem and whether or not citizens have a personal responsibility to educate themselves on issues. The media has many flaws. I've addressed many of them in this very conversation. In fact, the post you just quoted was critical of the media and the way they happily trumpeted a manufactured conspiracy theory for partisan reasons. I'm all ears if you can explain to me how that has nothing to do with the quality of the media.

At this point, we've spilled thousands of words about this and you haven't demonstrated that you're even capable of understanding the conversation. There is no way to read my posts on this subject and think I'm unwilling to acknowledge flaws with the media. I've been critical of media sources, both left and right, but pointed out repeatedly that there are dozens of strong media sources available and that all of the world's information's available to any of us any time. I'm perfectly willing to be critical of the media when they deserve it. What I'm unwilling to do is apply blanket, flawed conclusions that lack nuance to a complex problem.

I'm pointing out, as is finnohio, that the 'fake news' argument's not even being made in good faith. It is a political argument designed to diminish the importance of truth. The 'fake news' campaign is a political campaign engineered to tear down the authorities to which reasonable people used to be able to appeal. It is about the erosion of truth and fact. That you're shouting 'fake news' while calling for facts only demonstrates how profoundly you've managed to miss the point.

You've been given the opportunity, multiple times, to explain how certain news sources are fake. First, I tried to use the example of the Iran Deal coverage, merely because it was in the news that day. You refused to engage. Today, you've been asked to explain what's "fake" about the sources cited by DocBobcat. You've again refused.

Since you're so desperate for facts, here's one important one: your argument about the media hasn't held up to the tiniest bit of scrutiny and all you're doing now is shouting an opinion that you haven't been able to support with any sort of evidence. You are, to be super clear, acting like a talking head on cable news. Which is the exact thing you came here to rail against.

Last Edited: 5/24/2018 6:49:40 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
Post Count: 532

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  Message Not Read  RE: Housing-gate continues
   Posted: 5/24/2018 6:59:50 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
TheBobcatBandit wrote:


They are opinions not facts. Thatís why itís fake. Opinions can be biased. I want the facts not the opinions. I donít care if theyíre on the right or the left, opinions are not fact. So when I say that taxes boost the economy why would you give me a bunch of opinions refuting that. Until the facts are provided it will continue to be fake new. Maybe thatís not the most accurate way to describe it but itís kinda catchy and it gets the point accross. Donít listen to wrong opinions on the news. Why does someone like Elon musk call it fake news? Is he just another dumb trump supporter or is he a guenius rocket scientist who realizes there is a problem. Iíll go with the latter.



I honestly don't know if you're serious or just trolling. Two of the four of those were opinion pieces but they clearly cited the facts that they based their opinions on. Did you even read them? Also, all opinions are not created equal. Your opinion, given with ZERO facts to back it up, is not equal to the opinion of economists and policy researchers who have devoted their entire lives to studying these issues. I didn't just say your opinion is wrong, I gave you two respected experts saying your opinion is wrong and citing REAL FACTS to back up that assertion.

As for Elon, I have no idea why he uses the term. I know nothing about Elon Musk, other than the fact that he runs Tesla and has lofty ambitions and some out there ideas on some issues. Why would I care more about what he thinks than anyone else? Because he has money? Maybe he has valid critiques of the media, I wouldn't know. But what does that even have to do with the fact that you were just presented with a ton of FACTS and, without even explaining why you thought the authors were misinterpreting those facts, you just screamed FAKE NEWS?


Fair enough, my apologies for screaming fake news without explaining why. In these articles there are so many things wrong I didn't really want to waste my time explaining why its fake. I really don't want to keep doing this because odds are you will dispute what I say by straw manning my argument into one of a stereotypical right wing person and completely miss the points. Hopefully this works this time.

First off let me preface my argument by saying my understanding of this comes from my degree in international business at the great Ohio University and my personal interest and study of U.S. history.

Now lets get into it.

"What I was pointing out is the blatant hypocrisy of caring about one and not the other. It's brazenly political. It is everything you yourself claim you're critical of. You can't logically defend one but not the other. "

Well the way I see it that first article you put is blatantly political.

He starts off by saying

"Four decades ago, while working for Rep. Jack Kemp (R-N.Y.), I had a hand in creating the Republican tax myth. Of course, it didnít seem like a myth at that time ó taxes were rising rapidly because of inflation and bracket creep, the top tax rate was 70 percent and the economy seemed trapped in stagflation with no way out. Tax cuts, at that time, were an appropriate remedy for the economyís ills. By the time Ronald Reagan was president, Republican tax gospel went something like this:
The tax system has an enormously powerful effect on economic growth and employment."

The argument that lowering taxes helps the economy has nothing to do with whether someone is a republican or democrat. He instantly changes the argument about the effectiveness of taxes to one that is about who's tax plans is better. We need to get away from this team format. What if there is a third idea that is better than both of theirs.

"By the time Ronald Reagan was president, Republican tax gospel went something like this:
The tax system has an enormously powerful effect on economic growth and employment."
High taxes and tax rates were largely responsible for stagflation in the 1970s.
Reaganís 1981 tax cut, which was based a bill, co-sponsored by Kemp and Sen. William Roth (R-Del.), that I helped design, unleashed the American economy and led to an abundance of growth."

Ok again what does what the republican want to do with taxes have to do with the tax system itself.


"Based on this logic, tax cuts became the GOPís go-to solution for nearly every economic problem. Extravagant claims are made for any proposed tax cut. Wednesday, President Trump argued that ďour country and our economy cannot take offĒ without the kind of tax reform he proposes. Last week, Republican economist Arthur Laffer said, ďIf you cut that [corporate] tax rate to 15 percent, it will pay for itself many times over. Ö This will bring in probably $1.5 trillion net by itself.Ē
Thatís wishful thinking. So is most Republican rhetoric around tax cutting. In reality, thereís no evidence that a tax cut now would spur growth."

OK right here, what? This is what I mean when I say the media cherry picks data or quotes of people to straw man the argument into something it has nothing to do with. You can't just simplify the effectiveness of lowering taxes into just being about the corporate tax rate. There is way more that goes into taxes than the corporate tax rate. The tax of citizens as well as the other measures you can use such as deregulation and cutting government spending can have a huge effect into the effectiveness. Again they're leaving out a number of key points when it comes to taxes.

Next off he says

"Moreover, GOP tax mythology usually leaves out other factors that also contributed to growth in the 1980s: First was the sharp reduction in interest rates by the Federal Reserve. The fed funds rate fell by more than half, from about 19 percent in July 1981 to about 9 percent in November 1982. Second, Reaganís defense buildup and highway construction programs greatly increased the federal governmentís purchases of goods and services. This is textbook Keynesian economics.
[Why would anyone in Puerto Rico want a hurricane? Because someone will get rich.]"

The interest rate and how you apply it can effect the economy. Yet the writer just points how republicans don't think about it without having any evidence of that being true. He also does the same thing he accuses them of and blatantly lies. How does Keynesian economics have anything to do with what political side you're on. I am a conservative and I hate Keynesian economics. Still struggling to see how we have gotten to the conclusion that taxes are bad.

"Third, there was the simple bounce-back from the recession of 1981-82. Recoveries in the postwar era tended to be V-shaped ó they were as sharp as the downturns they followed. The deeper the recession, the more robust the recovery."

He still has yet to talk about the interworking of taxes and of what he would propose. He literally is just talking about what happened in the economy and not tying it to taxes at all.

"Finally, Iím not sure how many Republicans even know anymore that Reagan raised taxes several times after 1981. His last budget showed that as of 1988, the aggregate, cumulative revenue loss from the 1981 tax cut was $264 billion and legislated tax increases brought about half of that back."

Nothing to do with how you can use taxes to benefit the economy. Is just saying what republicans do is wrong. They might be wrong but that doesn't mean lowering taxes is good or bad. We have learned nothing about how taxes work and only about why the way republicans want it to work is wrong.

"Today, Republicans extol the virtues of lowering marginal tax rates, citing as their model the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which lowered the top individual income tax rate to just 28 percent from 50 percent, and the corporate tax rate to 34 percent from 46 percent. What follows, they say, would be an economic boon."

Ok the Tax reform act of 1986 has nothing to do with whether cutting taxes helps or hurts the economy. There are other factors that you have to implement and to just simplify it to this is embarrassing.

OK right here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You could ignore all the other flaws and just read this!!!

"Indeed, textbook tax theory says that lowering marginal tax rates while holding revenue constant unambiguously raises growth."

He admits taxes can have a positive impact on growth!!!!

Then once again he changes the argument about whether taxes could help the economy to about the 1986 tax reform act being bad.

"But there is no evidence showing a boost in growth from the 1986 act. The economy remained on the same track, with huge stock market crashes ó 1987ís ďBlack Monday,Ē 1989ís Friday the 13th ďmini-crashĒ and a recession beginning in 1990. Real wages fell."


Strenuous efforts by economists to find any growth effect from the 1986 act have failed to find much. The most thorough analysis, by economists Alan Auerbach and Joel Slemrod, found only a shifting of income due to tax reform, no growth effects: ďThe aggregate values of labor supply and saving apparently responded very little,Ē they concluded."

Again notice we aren't talking about cutting taxes we're talking about the 1986 tax reform act. They may have cut taxes then but there are a million other factors you have to consider.

Do I even need to keep going. This is fake news. I don't know how much more clear I can make it. I will finish demolishing this article but I'm not doing the others. This is a waste of my time.

"The flip-side of tax cut mythology is the notion that tax increases are an economic disaster ó the reason, in theory, every Republican in Congress voted against the tax increase proposed by Bill Clinton in 1993. Yet the 1990s was the most prosperous decade in recent memory. At 37.3 percent, aggregate real GDP growth in the 1990s exceeded that in the 1980s."

That has no reason to do with why I hate tax increases. I hate them because it takes the money I work for and therefor gives me less to spend on the things I want and more with the things the government wants. I at least know what I want, how do we know there isn't corruption in the people in government that we don't know about. Also if you raise taxes that gives the government more money which effectively gives them more power. I, as a conservative want the federal and state governments to have less power because the more power they have the too big and complex it gets for people to understand, which in turn makes it easier for corruption.


"Despite huge tax cuts almost annually during the George W. Bush administration that cost the Treasury trillions in revenue, according to the Congressional Budget Office, growth collapsed in the first decade of the 2000s. Real GDP rose just 19.5 percent, well below its í90s rate."

Why is he falsely attributing growth decline to taxes? Strawman!

"We saw another test of the Republican tax myth in 2013, after President Barack Obama allowed some of the Bush tax cuts to expire, raising the top income tax rate to its current 39.6 percent from 35 percent. The economy grew nicely afterward and the stock market has boomed ó up around 10,000 points over the past five years."

Again he falsely attributes the gains in the economy to taxes. I could also argue in many ways the economy is worse off than it was in 2008 so by saying the economy grew nicely is a joke to make. The economy has nothing to do with the stock market.

"Now, Republicans propose cutting the top individual rate to 35 percent, despite lacking evidence that this lower rate led to growth during the Bush years, and a drop in the corporate tax rate to just 20 percent from 35 percent. Unlike 1986, however, this $1.5 trillion cut over the next decade will only be paid for partially by closing tax loopholes."

Ok, nothing to do with how taxes work.






"Republicansí various claims are irreconcilable. One is that the rich will not benefit even though it is practically impossible for them not to ó those paying the most taxes already will necessarily benefit the most from a large tax cut. And there arenít enough tax deductions, exclusions and credits benefiting the rich that could be abolished to offset a cut in the top rate."

Yes this might be true but there are better ways out there than the republicans. Why does he continue to make this political.......


"[Trump promised black voters equal justice. Thatís all Kaepernick wants.]
Even if they had released a complete plan ó not just the woefully incomplete nine-page outline released Wednesday ó Republicans have failed to make a sound case that itís time to cut taxes."

What does this have to with the issue of taxes? I agree with Kaepernick, yet he makes an issue about taxes into an issue about race?? That's abhorrent. This is fake news!!!!!! If republicans haven't made a good case then why don't we find someone else that does instead of just assuming this means the left team wins.

"Nor have they signaled that theyíll commit to a viable process. Itís worth remembering that the first version of the í81 tax cut was introduced in 1977 and underwent thorough analysis by the CBO and other organizations, and was subject to comprehensive public hearings. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 grew out of a detailed Treasury study and took over two years to complete.
Rushing through a half-baked tax plan, in the same manner Republicans tried (and failed) to do with health-care reform, should be rejected out of hand. As Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has repeatedly and correctly said, successful legislating requires a return to the ďregular order.Ē That means a detailed proposal with proper revenue estimates and distribution tables from the Joint Committee on Taxation, hearings and analysis by the nationís best tax experts, markups and amendments in the tax-writing committees, and an open process in the House of Representatives and Senate.
There are good arguments for a proper tax reform even if it wonít raise GDP growth. It may improve economic efficiency, administration and fairness. But getting from here to there requires heavy lifting that this Republican Congress has yet to demonstrate. If they again look for a quick, easy victory, they risk a replay of the Obamacare repeal fight that wasted so much time and yielded so little."

This is more of the same as the rest of the article. I have made my criticism about what he is doing clear.




If you can't see how this article is filled with political and intellectually dishonest claims then you need to stop reading articles and learn about the specifics of the core issues instead of just reading the political slant people write about them.

You also need to realize the effect articles like these have on the political opinion of people, and how that makes them vote. The media and our country keep playing this team game and the debates have become nothing about the issue and all about attacking the other side and trying to win votes.

This was a waste of time I'm not doing the other articles. They are set up the same way. It's a joke. This is not news it is propaganda. Both the left and right have there own propaganda networks. We need to stop listening to them and find someone else.

Or hey come back again and try to insult my intelligence.



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