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Topic:  RE: Get off my lawn

Topic:  RE: Get off my lawn
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 11:31:08 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
. . .Says the middle-class (I assume) white man.

Sounds like the same stock answers I get from Jay Hottinger when asked about what he and his boys are doing in Columbus.



That's the stock approach of some these days, don't argue the merits of a case, just attack the other person, and if you can make the attack on the basis of skin color and gender all the better.

To answer another argument, one actually made on the merits and not an ad hominem, it is true that blacks back in the day didn't have ID cards; however, neither did whites. You also didn't have a secret ballot, so everyone knew which party you were voting for. It was extremely hard back then to vote a split ballot, either. My point was that African Americans (aka newly Freedmen) went to extraordinary lengths to vote and literally risked life and limb. They are much to be admired, and I do think that they would get a good laugh over the concept that getting a government issued ID card was infringing on the right to vote when many of them literally dodged bullets on the way to the polls.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 12:06:58 PM 
Yes they did dodge bullets - at least some of them did. Thousands were killed by the Klan, which was started to suppress voting - which they did well enough to return the Democrats (the conservative party of the time) back into office. Of course if a freedman did get to the polls and show he could read and write, he could be whipped or branded for breaking a "Black Code" law (learning to read and write, congregating without a white man present, etc.) Things got especially bad after the Slaughter House cases and other civil rights cases allowed for states to determine rights.

The argument or point that those that died would laugh at today's efforts to suppress voting is somewhat embarrassing. It starts to approach...so if one is not faced with direct violence, then efforts to suppress are no big deal. In fact, I don't think they would laugh. I think they would be embarrassed and angry that they went through such hardships (and many died) and yet, 150 years later, the ability of citizens to vote is still being challenged/curtailed. It is the single most important right we have, yet we make it more difficult for some than others.

Throwing up road blocks is suppression. The fact that it may be no big deal for some does not mean it is simple for all. An article that illustrates the challenges faced by hundreds of thousands in Texas illustrates the issue.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/19/voter-id-texas-ju.../

Of course, any state that thinks military maneuvers are actually a plan for the US government to invade the state should probably have all of its voters suppressed. Talk about jumping the shark. The loonies finally have with that one.

Bottom line, you want voter ID - fine - completely free, 100% - no cost at all for the citizen. - completely paid for by the state. Provide a location in every town to register. And if you don't have the proper paperwork (e.g., birth certificate), someone with a proper ID can vouch for you. Otherwise we are creating, in many cases, insurmountable hurdles for many in response to the two (2) conviction of voter fraud in Texas from 2002 - 2011.

Last Edited: 5/12/2015 12:12:11 PM by cc-cat

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 1:05:49 PM 
Your general premise is that people should practically be dragged to the polls to vote -- unless they are white men from Texas. My position is that all citizens have a right to vote and those who want to avail themselves of that right ought to be able to do it in a reasonable manner without unnecessary cumbersome or burdensome paperwork or roadblocks. Having some sort of ID seems to me to meet that standard. I would not have any objection to making the issuing of these cards 100 percent free to all who want them to have places for distribution of them available in places easily accessed by citizens who live in diverse areas -- from the inner city to the remote rural locations. On the the other hand, if a person decides he or she doesn't want to vote that decision should be respected, also. I saw on one liberal blog a few months ago a serious proposal that all citizens should be forced to vote. Rights of this sort are only rights if the individual has the right to exercise or not exercise the franchise.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 1:20:43 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Your general premise is that people should practically be dragged to the polls to vote -- unless they are white men from Texas.


Really, show me one post I have made that has to do with going to the polls? All of my comments have had to do specifically, and exclusively, with registration (holding out the dig at the wackos in Texas). The reality - without registration one can not vote, so making it harder to register suppresses voting. In the end we both agree. 100% free and accessible in every town. And I am sure you agree in making accommodations for those without proper papers. Yea, you can find an idiot on one end or the other with an absurd idea - like the conservative that wants have a civics test as part of the right to vote.

Bottom line - make registration and, therefore voting easily accessible to all. If someone then declines to take advantage of the right to vote, their decision - but then they keep their mouth shut about how things are run.

Last Edited: 5/12/2015 1:22:42 PM by cc-cat

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 2:24:34 PM 
I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent in terms registration versus voting.

However, while I don't have time to go into this in detail now, as I'm not near a computer and only have this blasted iPhone to resoond with, your statement that the Republican Party was the liberal party at the time is overly simplistic. A minority of the party were radicals, particularly on racial issues, most were moderate and were anti-slavery, as distinct from abolitionist, because of their conservative economic philosophy, which said one should earn his capital by the sweat of his own brow, not another's brow. These economic conservatives aligned with the radical elements, who often had religious objections to slavery and were more egalitarian, to form a very diverse and interesting coalition. Republicans were also even then the party of big business and used their programs of "internal improvements" to grease the engine of commerce in a way that made business interests indebted to the party. Honest Abe was a big proponent of internal improvements and this whole mechanism. After all this party sprang from the old Whig Party and maintained many of those roots. If you look closely you can also see elements of the modern Democratic Party that trace back to those days.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 2:28:56 PM 
I guess you actually said that the Democratic Party was the conservative party at the time so I responded to the inverse of your statement. Still my points are valid I think.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 3:28:11 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Your general premise is that people should practically be dragged to the polls to vote -- unless they are white men from Texas.


Really, show me one post I have made that has to do with going to the polls? All of my comments have had to do specifically, and exclusively, with registration (holding out the dig at the wackos in Texas). The reality - without registration one can not vote, so making it harder to register suppresses voting. In the end we both agree. 100% free and accessible in every town. And I am sure you agree in making accommodations for those without proper papers. Yea, you can find an idiot on one end or the other with an absurd idea - like the conservative that wants have a civics test as part of the right to vote.

Bottom line - make registration and, therefore voting easily accessible to all. If someone then declines to take advantage of the right to vote, their decision - but then they keep their mouth shut about how things are run.


I'm sure I'm gonna get blasted for this,but I do have an issue with people who know nothing about this Country's history,Government make up,etc.voting.

Voting is a right,but it is also a privledge,that carries with it a certain degree of responsibility.

When I was a senior in high school one of my history teachers asked if we thought it would be fair to require passing the same test as someone wishing to become a citizen to permit you to vote.
Almost everyone in the class,which was about 1/3 black,thought it would be.

I don't think this should be made retroactive,but I don't see why requiring a basic knowledge of how your government functions in order to vote is so bad.

I've tutored several of my employees who were studying for the Citizenship Test.Everyone passed the first time they took the test.

Over the years I've taken the practice tests at least 15 times.

Its not hard,if you have a basic knowledge of U.S. history,even the current politically correct version a lot of schools teach and civics.
In fact I've always scored 100%.

Last Edited: 5/12/2015 3:47:04 PM by rpbobcat

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cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 4:06:05 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
I guess you actually said that the Democratic Party was the conservative party at the time so I responded to the inverse of your statement. Still my points are valid I think.


The Dems were the conservatives of the time - and were the pro-slavery/anti civil rights party - especially in the south where the ex-Confederate leaders were all democrats and took great (and extreme) measures for the next 100 years to exclude civic, civil, and educational opportunities for men they never wanted to be free in the first place.

But as Blake Griffin says, I'm not looking for a history lesson" - nor does it sound like either of us need one.

rpbobcat - I appreciate your concern. The majority of white collar workers I know probably would struggle with the basic citizenship test - late night TV has illustrated that point. But we also do not want a country where only the privileged/educated vote. Given the attempts (successful in many cases) by a political party of making it difficult for people to register, one can only imagine the manipulation the test would go through as folks use it to exclude, rather than qualify those to vote. One thong we can be sure, such a "poll test" will never come about.

Last Edited: 5/12/2015 4:14:31 PM by cc-cat

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 4:49:07 PM 
cc-cat, I think I'm willing at this point to just let the debate rest. I don't think we are that far apart. I think you see the registration issues as they now stand as a little bit more of a conspiracy than I do; however, I personally have no problem with making registration easier. I do have a problem, which is not your issue, of the coercion of people to actually cast their votes. If you go back in this thread you'll see my personal experience with such coercion. I've enjoyed the discussion. It caused me to formulate some historical information in a pithy manner, something I'm not always known for! ;-)


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,495

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  Message Not Read  RE: Get off my lawn
   Posted: 5/12/2015 5:59:33 PM 
cc-cat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
I guess you actually said that the Democratic Party was the conservative party at the time so I responded to the inverse of your statement. Still my points are valid I think.


The Dems were the conservatives of the time - and were the pro-slavery/anti civil rights party - especially in the south where the ex-Confederate leaders were all democrats and took great (and extreme) measures for the next 100 years to exclude civic, civil, and educational opportunities for men they never wanted to be free in the first place.

But as Blake Griffin says, I'm not looking for a history lesson" - nor does it sound like either of us need one.

rpbobcat - I appreciate your concern. The majority of white collar workers I know probably would struggle with the basic citizenship test - late night TV has illustrated that point. But we also do not want a country where only the privileged/educated vote. Given the attempts (successful in many cases) by a political party of making it difficult for people to register, one can only imagine the manipulation the test would go through as folks use it to exclude, rather than qualify those to vote. One thong we can be sure, such a "poll test" will never come about.


cc-cat I agree 100%.
Its sad to say, but I think the vast majority of Americans couldn't pass the U.S. Citizenship Test.

I also agree that the privileged/educated shouldn't be the only people allowed vote.
But I also get upset when people vote in lock step, without any independent thought.

As far as manipulating a test to exclude people,that would concern me if states were allowed to handle the test.
That's why I said the test should be the U.S. Citizenship Test. That test could be scored electronically,like any standardized test.

But,there's also no question, ain't gonna happen.


Last Edited: 5/12/2015 6:12:43 PM by rpbobcat

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