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Topic:  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far

Topic:  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 3:49:04 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Gee, I wonder if I can find a poll to support my position...


"The CNN poll found that the public is growing more skeptical of Obamacare – 57 percent say they oppose the law, up 3 percentage points from a poll in May."

And by the way, we're debating whether or not the American people support Obamacare--not whether nor not they support a government shutdown.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/0930/Obamacare...


That's wordsmithing. In that poll, only 38% of people disapprove of the law because it is "too liberal." Another, 11% of the public thought the law didn't go far enough. The CS Monitor just added those numbers together to show 57%. In reality, you have 49% of the population that thinks there should be a government healthcare law similar to ACA or one that goes even further (i.e. more liberal)--while 39% of Americans think that the ACA goes too far according to the very poll that you linked to.

Obviously you don't want to be persuaded by facts, but that is neither here nor there. I didn't vote for Obama in 2008 but he won the election. He passed his signature piece of legislation and it was help up by the Supreme Court. Shutting down the government is not the way to get what you want. The American people have spoken on this issue. 

Full Disclosure: I did vote for Mr. Obama in 2012.

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 3:51:24 PM by DelBobcat


BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 4:03:25 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
... Why would that result in the premiums skyrocketing?

ACA is not about curtailing overall costs, only about re-arranging who pays. Healthcare expenditures as a percentage of GDP are the highest in the world, and continue to rise, yet we have little to show for it in terms of life expectancy, where we lag. There is obviously something very wrong. The question is, does ACA fix it? Or does it make it worse? Or, does it do nothing, except by re-arranging costs, allow the system to continue a few more years before it finally breaks entirely? How much spending on healthcare is "too much", as a percentage of GDP, before our economy begins to suffer in other areas, and our overall standard of living begins to decline?


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 4:16:01 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
Now that the service academies have apparently resolved their issues for Saturday's games, can we move this thread off the football board?


Hooray for football!
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 4:31:38 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare.


This Hartford Courant story suggests that is not the most accurate statement:

Hartford Courant Story wrote:


Hartford resident Brendan Mahoney, 30, said signing up took him about 20 minutes. Mahoney, a third-year law student at the University of Connecticut, said that by filling out the application online, he discovered he was eligible for Medicaid. So, beginning next year, he won't pay any premium at all.

In 2011 and 2012, Mahoney said, he was on a school-sponsored health plan costing about $2,400 a year. That was too expensive, he said, so this year he took out his own coverage: a high-deductible, low-premium plan that cost about $39 a month through a UnitedHealthcare subsidiary.

By going through the application process Tuesday, he found that he wouldn't pay even that much.

...

"If I get sick, I'll definitely go to the doctor."



A young, healthy, 30 year old is the type of person that the exchanges need to pay for insurance to subsidize the costs for older, sicker people. That he is avoiding paying any premium and instead obtaining free coverage under Medicaid cuts against that goal.

Or at least it would seem that way, but I believe Mr. Mahoney will be in for a rude awakening when he goes to file his tax return for 2014. He is eligible for Medicaid currently because he is a student, i.e., without significant income. Assuming he becomes employed upon graduation in the spring, his income should increase dramatically and he will most likely no longer be eligible for Medicaid. He could still be looking at some unexpected penalties/fines/taxes when it is all said and done.

And that's the real problem with this monster. Establish the rules, and you can build a model around them. But the rules keep changing. Put me in the "I'd rather have no rules than impossible-to-understand rules" camp.




Last Edited: 10/3/2013 4:32:25 PM by C Money

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 4:54:09 PM 
C Money wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare.


This Hartford Courant story suggests that is not the most accurate statement:

Hartford Courant Story wrote:


Hartford resident Brendan Mahoney, 30, said signing up took him about 20 minutes. Mahoney, a third-year law student at the University of Connecticut, said that by filling out the application online, he discovered he was eligible for Medicaid. So, beginning next year, he won't pay any premium at all.

In 2011 and 2012, Mahoney said, he was on a school-sponsored health plan costing about $2,400 a year. That was too expensive, he said, so this year he took out his own coverage: a high-deductible, low-premium plan that cost about $39 a month through a UnitedHealthcare subsidiary.

By going through the application process Tuesday, he found that he wouldn't pay even that much.

...

"If I get sick, I'll definitely go to the doctor."



A young, healthy, 30 year old is the type of person that the exchanges need to pay for insurance to subsidize the costs for older, sicker people. That he is avoiding paying any premium and instead obtaining free coverage under Medicaid cuts against that goal.

Or at least it would seem that way, but I believe Mr. Mahoney will be in for a rude awakening when he goes to file his tax return for 2014. He is eligible for Medicaid currently because he is a student, i.e., without significant income. Assuming he becomes employed upon graduation in the spring, his income should increase dramatically and he will most likely no longer be eligible for Medicaid. He could still be looking at some unexpected penalties/fines/taxes when it is all said and done.

And that's the real problem with this monster. Establish the rules, and you can build a model around them. But the rules keep changing. Put me in the "I'd rather have no rules than impossible-to-understand rules" camp.






He was likely eligible for Medicaid last year and the year before that, too. He just didn't realize it. Connecticut expanded medicaid coverage greatly in 2010.

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 5:01:01 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 5:01:24 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
C Money wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare.


This Hartford Courant story suggests that is not the most accurate statement:

Hartford Courant Story wrote:


Hartford resident Brendan Mahoney, 30, said signing up took him about 20 minutes. Mahoney, a third-year law student at the University of Connecticut, said that by filling out the application online, he discovered he was eligible for Medicaid. So, beginning next year, he won't pay any premium at all.

In 2011 and 2012, Mahoney said, he was on a school-sponsored health plan costing about $2,400 a year. That was too expensive, he said, so this year he took out his own coverage: a high-deductible, low-premium plan that cost about $39 a month through a UnitedHealthcare subsidiary.

By going through the application process Tuesday, he found that he wouldn't pay even that much.

...

"If I get sick, I'll definitely go to the doctor."



A young, healthy, 30 year old is the type of person that the exchanges need to pay for insurance to subsidize the costs for older, sicker people. That he is avoiding paying any premium and instead obtaining free coverage under Medicaid cuts against that goal.

Or at least it would seem that way, but I believe Mr. Mahoney will be in for a rude awakening when he goes to file his tax return for 2014. He is eligible for Medicaid currently because he is a student, i.e., without significant income. Assuming he becomes employed upon graduation in the spring, his income should increase dramatically and he will most likely no longer be eligible for Medicaid. He could still be looking at some unexpected penalties/fines/taxes when it is all said and done.

And that's the real problem with this monster. Establish the rules, and you can build a model around them. But the rules keep changing. Put me in the "I'd rather have no rules than impossible-to-understand rules" camp.






He was eligible for Medicaid last year and the year before that, too. He just didn't realize it.


Medicaid was expanded under Obamacare also. Following the Supreme Court ruling striking down parts of Obamacare, that expansion was left to the discretion of individual states. I'm guessing that Connecticut was one of the states that did so.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 5:10:32 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
C Money wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare.


This Hartford Courant story suggests that is not the most accurate statement:

Hartford Courant Story wrote:


Hartford resident Brendan Mahoney, 30, said signing up took him about 20 minutes. Mahoney, a third-year law student at the University of Connecticut, said that by filling out the application online, he discovered he was eligible for Medicaid. So, beginning next year, he won't pay any premium at all.

In 2011 and 2012, Mahoney said, he was on a school-sponsored health plan costing about $2,400 a year. That was too expensive, he said, so this year he took out his own coverage: a high-deductible, low-premium plan that cost about $39 a month through a UnitedHealthcare subsidiary.

By going through the application process Tuesday, he found that he wouldn't pay even that much.

...

"If I get sick, I'll definitely go to the doctor."



A young, healthy, 30 year old is the type of person that the exchanges need to pay for insurance to subsidize the costs for older, sicker people. That he is avoiding paying any premium and instead obtaining free coverage under Medicaid cuts against that goal.

Or at least it would seem that way, but I believe Mr. Mahoney will be in for a rude awakening when he goes to file his tax return for 2014. He is eligible for Medicaid currently because he is a student, i.e., without significant income. Assuming he becomes employed upon graduation in the spring, his income should increase dramatically and he will most likely no longer be eligible for Medicaid. He could still be looking at some unexpected penalties/fines/taxes when it is all said and done.

And that's the real problem with this monster. Establish the rules, and you can build a model around them. But the rules keep changing. Put me in the "I'd rather have no rules than impossible-to-understand rules" camp.






He was eligible for Medicaid last year and the year before that, too. He just didn't realize it.


Medicaid was expanded under Obamacare also. Following the Supreme Court ruling striking down parts of Obamacare, that expansion was left to the discretion of individual states. I'm guessing that Connecticut was one of the states that did so.


That's correct. But after the expansion of 2010, as a student it's very likely he was eligible already.
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Lande71
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 5:29:09 PM 
It seems some on here see all those people paying the mandate!  I see most of the people who are uninsured not being able to pay the mandate or buy the insurance.  They can't afford it!  It seems to me we need to get those people back to work with a "job" that will allow them to be able to pay one way or the other!  Good Luck!
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 8:14:17 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
By "forcing healthcare on the population" you're accounting for these costs, providing private insurers with far more patients, and creating a slush fund with individual mandate funds to pay for medical care provided to the uninsured. The additional patients, along with the individual mandate funds will, with time, drive costs down for the rest of us and work to address the untenable cost of healthcare in this country.


This is pure fantasy. There will never be a "slush fund" realized from this Act. You are adding millions of people to the insured roles who are either a) young and relatively healthy, and also not financially capable of paying huge premiums, and (mostly) b) people who don't have any money at all and will amount to huge additional costs, especially when they discover they now have "free" healthcare. Of course, all this is NOT free, and it will fall onto the backs of the middle class, who's premiums will skyrocket and work opportunities will shrink.


The individual mandate is the slush fund. If you choose not to purchase insurance, you pay the mandate. That's the money that comprises the slush fund. So, I ask you this: with all of the additional money being paid into the system (individual mandate money, and people purchasing private plans) what will cause premiums to sky rocket? There is far more money in the system under the ACA than there is now. Why would that result in the premiums skyrocketing?

Edit: Also--nobody is getting free healthcare from the ACA. That's another huge misconception. People are either buying through a private insurer, or they're remaining uninsured and paying the mandate. The mandate money then helps covered the inevitable health costs incurred by the uninsured. There is nobody getting "free" healthcare who is now going to go out and get a bunch of surgeries they can only afford because of their new free healthcare. For all of the talk on the right about this being a government handout, the ACA was designed by the Heritage Foundation specifically to avoid that. It's based on conservative principals like increasing competition in the free market (the exchanges) and personal responsibility (the individual mandate).



There will be some 40 million more people on the rolls, that will more than account for the money generated for premiums. As a result, premiums will increase in order to cover the additional costs. It's already happening. People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What do you mean no one is getting free healthcare. Everyone is covered. That's the whole idea. And, there is no stopping people from paying the minimal fine for not participating, then running out and getting on a plan after an injury. Hence, don't pay in over years, but instant payoff. There's no stopping anyone from getting that same coverage either. And when you enroll, no one confirms your income. You can quite easily lie and claim you earn below poverty level.

If this is all so great, why is Congress exempt from participating? What about certain, selected, companies and unions? Why are they permitted to avoid all the wonderful advantages of Obamacare?

The idea this is built on conservative principles is a popular liberal myth. Just because Romney did something similar does not make it a conservative idea. If it were really a conservative idea, liberals would hate it.




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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 8:42:01 PM 
Quote:
People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What direction were your premiums going under 8 years of the "W" administration?

 

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 8:43:45 PM by RSBobcat


RS Bobcat

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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 8:59:10 PM 
- Obama ran for 2 years on the promise of signing into law healthcare reform if elected President.

- In 2008 Obama was elected president by the largest margin of victory of a first term president since LBJ in '64.

- After becoming president Obama fulfilled his campaign promise and signed into law the Affordable Care Act in March 20110.

- The Supreme Court ruled the ACA was constitutional in June 2012.

- Republicans spent 4 years arguing their case against the ACA and urged the American people to elect Mitt Romney as president so he could repeal the law before it went into effect.

- The American people overwhelmingly re-elected President Obama in 2012, reaffirming the support of healthcare reform and rejecting the Republican's attempts to stop it.

Ball game. that's it. game over. 0:00 left on the clock. To argue the merits of the Affordable Care Act at this point is moot. Not even its most fervent supporters believe that it will be perfect in its first iteration but it is the law of the land.

The issue at hand here is not about the merits of the law, good or bad, its about a small group of politicians bringing the whole damn machine to a grinding halt because they lost and are mad about it. The American people spoke. Elections have consequences. It's time to move forward. /soapbox.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 9:08:22 PM 
perimeterpost wrote:
- Obama ran for 2 years on the promise of signing into law healthcare reform if elected President.

- In 2008 Obama was elected president by the largest margin of victory of a first term president since LBJ in '64.

- After becoming president Obama fulfilled his campaign promise and signed into law the Affordable Care Act in March 20110.

- The Supreme Court ruled the ACA was constitutional in June 2012.

- Republicans spent 4 years arguing their case against the ACA and urged the American people to elect Mitt Romney as president so he could repeal the law before it went into effect.

- The American people overwhelmingly re-elected President Obama in 2012, reaffirming the support of healthcare reform and rejecting the Republican's attempts to stop it.

Ball game. that's it. game over. 0:00 left on the clock. To argue the merits of the Affordable Care Act at this point is moot. Not even its most fervent supporters believe that it will be perfect in its first iteration but it is the law of the land.

The issue at hand here is not about the merits of the law, good or bad, its about a small group of politicians bringing the whole damn machine to a grinding halt because they lost and are mad about it. The American people spoke. Elections have consequences. It's time to move forward. /soapbox.


Yes, and the American people also elected a Republican House of Representatives.  Do you believe that that was just by accident?  This means that some people who voted for Obama also voted for a Republican for Congress.  This in spite of the fact that the Republican turnout out was actually about five percent lower in 2012 than in 2008.  I have some theories as to why this happened, but they are not germane to the topic at hand.  Perhaps, to use your analogy, the American people wanted to send this game into OT. 

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 9:09:47 PM by OhioCatFan


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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 10:01:06 PM 
H of R members are elected on much more local...therefore more partisan...bases than Senators.  Who controls the Senate?

I don't think that the Republican party is doing itself any good by insisting on trying to repeal Obamacare and holding up budget funding by fighting against Obamacare via the budget process.

First, Obamacare ain't gonna be repealed.  Just not gonna happen.  RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.

Maybe no one will remember these days.  But it sure seems to me that Republicans are pursuing a policy that stands a not insignificant chance of making the party irrelevant.  Add in alienating Hispanics and non-straight persons and you have a recipe for a dwindling minority.  There's very little place for moderation in the Republican party.


The disinformation campaign by those fighting Obamacare is simply appalling.

Yes, there will be problems with Obamacare.  There are problems with any major public or private initiative.  To go wild-eyed slamming on Obamacare for every glitch does not do the country any good.


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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 10:24:27 PM 
The current stalemate/shutdown is not due to House Republican demands for full repeal. The last House proposal prior to shutdown was to eliminate the subsidy OPM established to defer the out-of-pocket costs for Congressmen and staff members (which is actually in line with the express language and spirit of the law) and to delay the individual mandate for a year to match the one year delay of the employer mandate. Full repeal has never actually been a part of a House-passed CR (Cruz's non-filibuster was over "defunding" the ACA, whatever that means, but was not in demand of a full repeal).
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 10:41:41 PM 
RSBobcat wrote:
Quote:
People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What direction were your premiums going under 8 years of the "W" administration?

 


What does this have to do with anything? I don't have a ready answer without investigating, but I can assure you Obamacare is and will continue to result in the highest premiums of all time. My insurance premiums have always risen--slowly--like most every other commodity in the world. Now, they are rising dramatically. 

Are you arguing that if my premiums went up under Bush, then I must rejoice in them going up now? Am I getting that right?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 10:55:50 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
H of R members are elected on much more local...therefore more partisan...bases than Senators. Who controls the Senate?

I don't think that the Republican party is doing itself any good by insisting on trying to repeal Obamacare and holding up budget funding by fighting against Obamacare via the budget process.

First, Obamacare ain't gonna be repealed. Just not gonna happen. RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.

Maybe no one will remember these days. But it sure seems to me that Republicans are pursuing a policy that stands a not insignificant chance of making the party irrelevant. Add in alienating Hispanics and non-straight persons and you have a recipe for a dwindling minority. There's very little place for moderation in the Republican party.


The disinformation campaign by those fighting Obamacare is simply appalling.

Yes, there will be problems with Obamacare. There are problems with any major public or private initiative. To go wild-eyed slamming on Obamacare for every glitch does not do the country any good.



Well said my man!
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 10:56:13 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.



http://www.newsmax.com/US/polls-americans-not-ready/2013/...

Here's another one for you, Monroe. I could keep looking, but it gets kind of boring. I'm not much for polls to begin with, since I don't like to make decisions based on which way the wind is blowing.
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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:13:50 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.



http://www.newsmax.com/US/polls-americans-not-ready/2013/...

Here's another one for you, Monroe. I could keep looking, but it gets kind of boring. I'm not much for polls to begin with, since I don't like to make decisions based on which way the wind is blowing.


Newsmax! Surely they haven't cherry-picked polls that fit their agenda. Its not like they have a dog in this fight!
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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:29:36 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Quote:
People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What direction were your premiums going under 8 years of the "W" administration?

 


What does this have to do with anything? I don't have a ready answer without investigating, but I can assure you Obamacare is and will continue to result in the highest premiums of all time. My insurance premiums have always risen--slowly--like most every other commodity in the world. Now, they are rising dramatically. 

Are you arguing that if my premiums went up under Bush, then I must rejoice in them going up now? Am I getting that right?


It sounds like you might have had a different experience with your insurance premiums than some of the rest of us. As yours were rising at a slow rate in line with inflation,  the average American's healthcare premiums were rising at 4X the rate of wages from 1999-2012.  source.



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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:48:51 PM 
Robert Fox wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Quote:
People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What direction were your premiums going under 8 years of the "W" administration?

 


What does this have to do with anything? I don't have a ready answer without investigating, but I can assure you Obamacare is and will continue to result in the highest premiums of all time. My insurance premiums have always risen--slowly--like most every other commodity in the world. Now, they are rising dramatically. 

Are you arguing that if my premiums went up under Bush, then I must rejoice in them going up now? Am I getting that right?

No - just acknowledge the known facts. Can you prove that they would not also have begun rising at a more dramatic rate w/out the AFA? 

 

Last Edited: 10/3/2013 11:54:20 PM by RSBobcat


RS Bobcat

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/3/2013 11:51:23 PM 
perimeterpost wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
RSBobcat wrote:
Quote:
People are seeing higher premiums now. Like me.

What direction were your premiums going under 8 years of the "W" administration?

 


What does this have to do with anything? I don't have a ready answer without investigating, but I can assure you Obamacare is and will continue to result in the highest premiums of all time. My insurance premiums have always risen--slowly--like most every other commodity in the world. Now, they are rising dramatically. 

Are you arguing that if my premiums went up under Bush, then I must rejoice in them going up now? Am I getting that right?


It sounds like you might have had a different experience with your insurance premiums than some of the rest of us. As yours were rising at a slow rate in line with inflation,  the average American's healthcare premiums were rising at 4X the rate of wages from 1999-2012.  source.




Hmm, and lookie there at that big jump in the "workers' contribution to premiums" for the 2009 to 2010 period...what happened during that period that might have caused such a jump...hmm...let me think...
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/4/2013 12:14:44 AM 
perimeterpost wrote:
It sounds like you might have had a different experience with your insurance premiums than some of the rest of us. As yours were rising at a slow rate in line with inflation,  the average American's healthcare premiums were rising at 4X the rate of wages from 1999-2012.

It certainly didn't just start in 1999. Health insurance has dramatically outpacing the economy for a long time. Here's a chart that shows Heathcare as a percentage of GDP between 1980 and 2006. It rose particularly rapidly from 1988-1992, and again from 2000-2003. Here are the numbers since 2006, and it has been rising again quite rapidly:

2006 15.9
2007 16.2
2008 16.6
2009 17.7
2010 17.6
2011 17.9

There isn't really any hope for a solution to the medical debate because there isn't even agreement on what the objectives are:
1. Is the goal to make sure everyone has equal access to healthcare?
2. Is the goal to increase the overall quality of healthcare, as measured in the life expectancy of the country?
3  Is the goal fairness in the sense that everyone gets the quality of healthcare he/she is willing to pay for, and don't get healthcare if they aren't willing to pay for it?
4. Is the goal to to lower the total cost of healthcare to the country?

As the moment the predominant goal seems to be to make sure that the poor have the same access to healthcare as the rich, and to find a way to spread the cost around so people won't notice that healthcare continues to eat an ever-increasing portion of our nation's economy.

Eventually the portion of the economy eaten by healthcare will matter. That share doubled between 1980 and 2009. If it continues to double every thirty years, in sixty years healthcare will consume the entire economy. Even in 30 years we'll have to start giving up a lot of things to make room for more healthcare.

Last Edited: 10/4/2013 12:16:47 AM by L.C.


“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/4/2013 12:24:53 AM 
L.C. wrote:
[QUOTE=perimeterpost] It rose particularly rapidly from 1988-1992, and again from 2000-2003.



I can think of at least one thing those two time frames have in common...............

 


RS Bobcat

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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/4/2013 12:42:51 AM 
Paul Graham wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.



http://www.newsmax.com/US/polls-americans-not-ready/2013/...

Here's another one for you, Monroe. I could keep looking, but it gets kind of boring. I'm not much for polls to begin with, since I don't like to make decisions based on which way the wind is blowing.


Newsmax! Surely they haven't cherry-picked polls that fit their agenda. Its not like they have a dog in this fight!


This is the only good thing about NewsMax:

The Tonight Show with Jay Leno Banner

Scientists in Stockholm say hundreds of jellyfish have shut down a nuclear reactor. Hey, that's nothing. In this country, a bunch of spineless jellyfish have shut down the entire government.

All non-essential employees were sent home — including President Obama's economic team.

To all of you non-essential employees who have been forced out of your job: I work for NBC. I know how you feel.

You can see the effects of the shutdown all over town. President Obama is now down to just one teleprompter.

Conan

The government shutdown could cost the American economy $300 million a day. To put that in perspective, it would be like every day the economy released a new Lone Ranger movie.

Because of the government shutdown, President Obama has had to scale back his planned trip to Asia. Now Obama's just going to cross the street and eat lunch at a Panda Express.

People have events in the national parks and they're canceled because of the shutdown. There was a KKK rally scheduled to be held in a national park that was canceled. This was bad news for the KKK but good news for the park's black bears.

Russian president Vladimir Putin has been named a candidate for this year's Nobel Peace Prize. His chances of winning are good because his strategy is to have the other nominees killed.

 

Late Show with David Letterman

The New York City Opera is bankrupt. Is that why you're all here, because the opera is closed? 

Whenever there's trouble, there's always a silver lining. Swing by the New York City Opera on your way home and you can get 75 percent off Viking helmets.

People are saying now that before the government shutdown congressmen went out and got drunk — celebrating that they had shut down the government. This is the kind of thing that could damage their 10 percent approval rating.

When you sign up for Obamacare you choose between the bronze program, the silver program, the gold program, and the platinum program. If you sign up for the platinum, you actually get to drive the ambulance.

The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson

I don't think people are paying enough attention to fact that the National Zoo is closed. The panda cam has been dark for 48 hours. Who knows what craziness those pandas are up to now? They might be going crazy. They might be making the other animals do chores for them.

This government shutdown is a divisive issue. Families are being torn apart, mostly by zoo animals that are escaping while nobody is watching.

A lot of Republicans are hoping Democrats will eventually give in. I'm not so sure. If you're waiting for Nancy Pelosi to blink, it may be awhile. I don't know if it's technically possible.

This would never happen in Canada, because their politicians have dignity, especially that crack-smoking mayor of Toronto.

Jimmy Kimmel Live

As of yesterday it is illegal to eat road kill in Montana. "Road kill" is such an ugly phrase. I prefer the term "vehicularly harvested."

The animals covered under the road kill law include antelope, deer, elk, and moose. Before you take a dead animal home, you have to get a permit. Imagine the line for road kill permits. That must be some group.

The popular show "Duck Dynasty" is having a summer cruise. It sold out instantly. If you are a seagull, you may want to avoid that ship.

A CNN poll showed that the Congress approval rating is done to 10 percent. That still doesn't seem low enough. Do one out of 10 people really approve of the job Congress is doing? And who are these people? I want to work for them.

Late Night with Jimmy Fallon

The government shutdown — no one knows when the government will be back up and running. So if you've ever wanted to cut the tag off your mattress, do it now.

Several bars in Washington, D.C., are offering discounts on drinks to federal workers affected by the government shutdown. Or as people who AREN'T federal workers put it, “I'm a federal worker.”

Because the government doesn’t have any money, NASA had to close a Twitter account that warns the public about asteroids. So if you’re someone who constantly checks Twitter to see if an asteroid’s coming — would an asteroid really make your life any worse?

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: OT: Government Shutdown -- This Has Gone Too Far
   Posted: 10/4/2013 1:54:04 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
RFox--please show me any respected poll that shows that more people are against Obamacare than are for it.



http://www.newsmax.com/US/polls-americans-not-ready/2013/...

Here's another one for you, Monroe. I could keep looking, but it gets kind of boring. I'm not much for polls to begin with, since I don't like to make decisions based on which way the wind is blowing.


The House has voted for repeal of Obamacare over 40 times.  And every time it went no further.  So, there can be no doubt that the current House strategy is helpful.

RFox--ARE YOU KIDDING ME. 

ANTI-OBAMA HAS CAMPAIGNED MERCILESSLY, VERY OFTEN WITH BLATANT FALSEHOODS, AGAINST OBAMACARE AND YOU'RE SURPRISED THAT PEOPLE ARE 'CONFUSED ABOUT HOW THE NEW LAW WORKS'?  HOW DO YOU CONCLUDE THAT BEING CONFUSED IS THE SAME AS NOT BEING IN FAVOR OF IT? 

YOU CAN BE IN FAVOR OF THE LAW EVEN IF YOU ARE CONFUSED OVER SOME OF ITS SPECIFICS.  

AND READ WHAT YOU POSTED:  33% SAY DELAY OR REPEAL ('DELAY' DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN GET RID OF IT), 29% WANT CONGRESS TO IMPROVE THE LAW, 26% WANT IT TO TAKE EFFECT AS IS, AND 12% WANT THE LAW EXPANDED.  EXPLAIN HOW THAT ADDS UP TO MORE ARE AGAINST IT THAN ARE FOR IT.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT POLL PROVES THAT A MAJORITY OR PLURALITY ARE AGAINST THE LAW.

26% WANT IT AS IS, 12% SAY EXPAND. THAT'S CLEARLY 38% FOR.      29% WHO WANT IT IMPROVED--CAN'T TELL IF THEY DO OR DON'T FAVOR IT.  33% SAY DELAY OR REPEAL--CAN'T TELL WHAT % OF THOSE LIKE IT, WANT IT TO STAY.

IT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE TO PASS THAT POLL OFF AS MAJORITY OR PLURALITY AGAINST THE LAW.


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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