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Topic:  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo

Topic:  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 9:01:03 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Getting nothing this year out of McMurray, Springs and Murrell is a killer.


You were expecting something different?

Last Edited: 1/21/2020 9:40:48 PM by bobcatsquared

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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 9:02:27 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Getting nothing this year out of McMurray, Springs and Murrell is a killer.


Were expecting something different?



I will take it a step further. We absolutely cannot afford to have BVP play for 23 mins. He has to play 35+. We also cannot have McDay put up a virtual goose egg.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 9:09:54 PM 
This is why it's gonna be a process to undo #SaulBall. Without effective bigs being recruited in that era, we're seeing the end results of that process and unfortunately, it's pretty painful.

That said, still sticking to young and stupid syndrome and the fact that Toledo is one of the most athletic teams in the league and we hung with em given our lack of post depth, not a bad place to be. I know, I hate moral victories on the football thread, but this is Year 1 of Boals and the guards we have are going to be big parts moving forward.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 9:10:20 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Getting nothing this year out of McMurray, Springs and Murrell is a killer.


Were expecting something different?



No...but getting a solid consistent contribution off the bench for 5-7 minutes per game from at least one of these guys would have been nice. Hard to stomach having three guys on scholarship who aren’t really doing anything. Murrell has been hurt so he gets a pass. But even when healthy, you never know what you are going to get out of him.

Last Edited: 1/21/2020 9:34:15 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 10:08:39 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Getting nothing this year out of McMurray, Springs and Murrell is a killer.


You were expecting something different?



Based on how he closed last season I was expecting good things from Murrell. What exactly is his injury?
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 10:17:10 PM 
Let's blame it all on Saul. Oh wait, it's his guys doing all the scoring. Umm, Boals recruits? Whoops, never mind. They are not ready.
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left lane, hammer down
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/21/2020 10:20:57 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Getting nothing this year out of McMurray, Springs and Murrell is a killer.


You were expecting something different?



Based on how he closed last season I was expecting good things from Murrell. What exactly is his injury?


I believe he has a "sports hernia".
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 6:54:20 AM 
Agree Jerry as no need to keep kicking sand in Saul's face. The two top scorers this season are his guys.
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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 8:37:49 AM 
Bobcat1996 wrote:
Agree Jerry as no need to keep kicking sand in Saul's face. The two top scorers this season are his guys.


Of course they are. Aside from Ogbanda, all of Jeff's recruits are true freshmen. This is no big revelation.

Jason Preston and BVP have raised their abilities from last year. I give credit to Saul for getting them to say yes to Ohio, but credit for where they are this year belongs to Jeff Boals.

When I say last night was a Saul hangover, I mean we played in a way that was far too common under Saul. I'm referring to mostly shooting with little confidence at all spots on the floor and a complete inability to put resistance on an opponent's lead guard.

I'm still grading on a curve with this group due to its youth and the injuries disjointing practicing 5 on 5, but IMO, out of 19 games played, we have only played four well (Bonaventure, Iona, MTSU, Tennessee Tech). Rio and Heidelberg don't matter to me. We were underwhelming in the two against EMU, Morehead, and Detroit. We showed some good things at UB, but blundered to get a good shot off a baseline inbounds to win.

Not panicking yet. The team needs to keep its head up after last night.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 9:08:12 AM 
The early fouls on BVP were huge. The 3rd especially. Not sure how much to buy into +/- ratings, but with BVP on the floor we were only -1 (according to Arkley's stat sheet) and -8 when his sub (McMurray) entered. It felt like a huge drop-off when BVP had to sit. Speaking of +/-, with Jordy on the floor, -16. Ouch. This game could have been a lot different had we made shots in the lane. Ogbonda, especially, had a really rough night cashing in on close range shots. He got some big boards but, man, you have to finish from inside 3-4'.

Good to see Roderick knock down some shots, Preston had a good night scoring, but there were just too many missed opportunities (shots at the rim, missed free throws, 50/50 balls) to swing it our way.
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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 9:15:08 AM 
We got 26 points off the bench last night, but they all sure feel without impact. How bizarre.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 9:23:33 AM 
I know he's still trying to get into the rotation and probably still recovering from the injuries, but Ohio really needs to get Ben Roderick more minutes. There's not a lot of natural scorers on this team and he is one.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 9:44:25 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:
I know he's still trying to get into the rotation and probably still recovering from the injuries, but Ohio really needs to get Ben Roderick more minutes. There's not a lot of natural scorers on this team and he is one.



Time to consider starting Ben and bringing McDay off the bench?


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 9:52:07 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
I know he's still trying to get into the rotation and probably still recovering from the injuries, but Ohio really needs to get Ben Roderick more minutes. There's not a lot of natural scorers on this team and he is one.



Time to consider starting Ben and bringing McDay off the bench?


It's a question of what you want starting vs what you want coming off the bench. Do you want an offensive spark coming from the bench or do you want another weapon on the floor to start and help build a cushion?

At this point, I don't think you can go wrong with either approach.

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 10:07:19 AM 
shabamon wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
I know he's still trying to get into the rotation and probably still recovering from the injuries, but Ohio really needs to get Ben Roderick more minutes. There's not a lot of natural scorers on this team and he is one.



Time to consider starting Ben and bringing McDay off the bench?


It's a question of what you want starting vs what you want coming off the bench. Do you want an offensive spark coming from the bench or do you want another weapon on the floor to start and help build a cushion?

At this point, I don't think you can go wrong with either approach.



I know nobody wants to hear this, but for a second I thought of bringing Jordy off the bench first. Which is insane...but????

Last Edited: 1/22/2020 11:55:00 AM by GoCats105

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 11:01:17 AM 
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 11:55:08 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


+1

While I'm all on board with Jeff and think he's gonna be a great Bobcat coach, I'm getting a little tired of all this Saul bashing. Saul lost his job here due to some untimely injuries more than anything else.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 12:45:36 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


+1

While I'm all on board with Jeff and think he's gonna be a great Bobcat coach, I'm getting a little tired of all this Saul bashing. Saul lost his job here due to some untimely injuries more than anything else.


Points made by OCF and The Optimist above don't consider depth of quality, DI talent, something this program has lacked for several years.

Obviously, Saul recruited "talent" with Carter, BVP, Preston being 3 examples. But where is the depth of this quality, DI talent?
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 12:56:01 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


+1

While I'm all on board with Jeff and think he's gonna be a great Bobcat coach, I'm getting a little tired of all this Saul bashing. Saul lost his job here due to some untimely injuries more than anything else.


Points made by OCF and The Optimist above don't consider depth of quality, DI talent, something this program has lacked for several years.

Obviously, Saul recruited "talent" with Carter, BVP, Preston being 3 examples. But where is the depth of this quality, DI talent?


OCF's last sentence speaks to this. Untimely injuries severely impacted not only our starting talent but also our depth under Saul.

We haven't even mentioned Dartis, another clear "DI talent" who was a Saul recruit and has missed the previous two seasons with injuries.

I'm fully supportive of Boals and I'm particularly excited to see the progression of Preston and BVP since he's arrived... But I also believe blaming Saul at this point for our loses is just silly.


I've seen crazier things happen.

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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 1:43:07 PM 

I'm just gonna turn the page on that game. Vanderplas foul trouble all game. Three other starters shoot 3-22? Weird game.

So I liked all 9 minutes from Brown and want to see more. Would like to see Brown, McDay, and Roderick trusted to be more aggressive on offense.

McMurray is a maniac. Hope it rubs off on some of the others.



Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 2:22:03 PM 
The Optimist wrote:
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


Except the fact that Saul’s “guys” you are the best players on a substandard team. Which is very much why Saul is not still at OHIO.

Last Edited: 1/22/2020 2:25:59 PM by BillyTheCat

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 2:30:23 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Not only are McDay and BVP both Saul recruits, McDay also committed here under Saul. Now it's WAY too early to start questioning any of the freshman, but right now it's Saul's guys, not Boals guys who are leading this team. Jason Carter is also doing pretty well at Xavier which is a point against the whole "Saul doesn't recruit talent" argument.


+1

While I'm all on board with Jeff and think he's gonna be a great Bobcat coach, I'm getting a little tired of all this Saul bashing. Saul lost his job here due to some untimely injuries more than anything else.


Points made by OCF and The Optimist above don't consider depth of quality, DI talent, something this program has lacked for several years.

Obviously, Saul recruited "talent" with Carter, BVP, Preston being 3 examples. But where is the depth of this quality, DI talent?


I really would rather not go back down this wormhole, but in this argument, its quite fair to point out the effect of the contract on the recruiting situation over the last couple years.

Moving on to the current team, it's coach, and players, they really, really need two of Murrell, Brown, and Roderick to be what they thought they were on a more consistent basis. That would go a long way towards a better run towards Cleveland.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 2:35:27 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Lande71 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
I know BVP is in foul trouble, but watching McMurray get the run of minutes here in first half is brutal. Just not D-1 level talent.


You criticize McMurray? At least I saw hustle defensively. How about all the D 1 talent who can’t score around the basket. Off balance shots! Missed bunny after bunny. Big guy who is big enough he should be able to slam it, but is soft. Shots that look like a jr. high kid being thrown up inside. Drives me crazy. We should be ahead!


You did not allow me to finish until the game is over. Obviously, tough to win games when you have a center who can’t score within 3 feet. We haven’t had any consistency in that department since Antonio Campbell left. Boals will have to figure it out and find a center who can score layups in the paint. And sorry, it’s painful to watch McMurray. He’s not D-one caliber.


What about McMurray's performance last night inspired the "not D-1 caliber" stuff? He's never going to be BVP or Jason Carter, but he's 6'7"ish, plays pretty damn hard, and managed 7 points and a couple boards in 17 minutes last night. He wasn't terrible, and he wasn't the reason they lost.

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 2:49:31 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Lande71 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
I know BVP is in foul trouble, but watching McMurray get the run of minutes here in first half is brutal. Just not D-1 level talent.


You criticize McMurray? At least I saw hustle defensively. How about all the D 1 talent who can’t score around the basket. Off balance shots! Missed bunny after bunny. Big guy who is big enough he should be able to slam it, but is soft. Shots that look like a jr. high kid being thrown up inside. Drives me crazy. We should be ahead!


You did not allow me to finish until the game is over. Obviously, tough to win games when you have a center who can’t score within 3 feet. We haven’t had any consistency in that department since Antonio Campbell left. Boals will have to figure it out and find a center who can score layups in the paint. And sorry, it’s painful to watch McMurray. He’s not D-one caliber.


What about McMurray's performance last night inspired the "not D-1 caliber" stuff? He's never going to be BVP or Jason Carter, but he's 6'7"ish, plays pretty damn hard, and managed 7 points and a couple boards in 17 minutes last night. He wasn't terrible, and he wasn't the reason they lost.



5 of those points came in garbage time. He's out of position on the floor many times and gets boxed out easily in the paint for his size. I never said he was the reason we lost. My point is that if Mason McMurray is playing 17 minutes a game we are in trouble. I'm never confident with him on the floor. He runs around a lot, but seems lost. I'm not the only one who sees this. And this isn't just last night's game. This is watching for nearly two years now. Somebody else made a comment I'm curious about as well....what does McMurray do differently that Springs can't do?



Last Edited: 1/22/2020 2:52:56 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 19 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 1/22/2020 2:53:06 PM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
I agree. The main difference in this game is D1 talent. Toledo has more. We literally have BVP, Dartis, Preston and McDay. Rest is suspect.

I hope Granger and White are ready. Not sure if Rod and Brown are. Need 2 grad guys or JUCO and a grad guy to pair with BVP, Preston and McDay next year.


I'm going to expand upon this in my own opinion. It has less to do with D1 talent than it has to do with mature talent. Toledo's starting 5 are all juniors and seniors. The top 4 scorers, and top 4 guys in minutes played, are as well. That matters. Conversely, we have Dartis, Vander Plas, Ogbonda who have been on a D1 roster more than one season. We know who is giving us what out of those three guys right now.

To me, this year, Ohio needs to find a way to get Dartis back on a roll. If he's hobbled a little, get him a rest, just get him ready for the last couple weeks and Cleveland. And they've gotta get a couple of the freshmen to elevate their games a little. If that means playing them more and dealing with growing pains, so be it.

For next year, as you mention, if I'm Boals, I'm using both of the currently available scholarships and aggressively pursuing transfers that are older, and more physically mature. Whether its a grad transfer, JUCO, or other transfer, Ohio is young, and needs to get a couple older, more physical players. One of them would be a PG if it were me. Lastly, I think it's probable he'll have three, not two, scholarships available by April 1st. Call it a gut feeling.
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