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Topic:  Embracing Technology

Topic:  Embracing Technology
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/3/2019 12:27:53 PM 
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/2...

Mountain West coaches receiving real-time analytics during the game. Will be interesting to see how much this comes into play.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/3/2019 2:51:37 PM 
Unlike baseball and football,analytics seems to have a somewhat limited benefit in
basketball.

Between the speed of the game and the fact that guys/teams can be "streaky",I don't know how valuable it will be.
Except maybe knowing what "chant" could rattle a guy at the free throw line.

Last Edited: 9/3/2019 2:52:03 PM by rpbobcat
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/3/2019 3:52:01 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Unlike baseball and football,analytics seems to have a somewhat limited benefit in
basketball.

Between the speed of the game and the fact that guys/teams can be "streaky",I don't know how valuable it will be.
Except maybe knowing what "chant" could rattle a guy at the free throw line.



I'm not sure that analytics are less beneficial, I just think they're harder to implement in real time because basketball games involve people playing basketball like pretty much all the time, while baseball and football games are 90% standing around.

That said, I suspect the lineup data would be really useful.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/3/2019 6:55:47 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that analytics are less beneficial, I just think they're harder to implement in real time because basketball games involve people playing basketball like pretty much all the time, while baseball and football games are 90% standing around.

That said, I suspect the lineup data would be really useful.


I think in basketball, a lot of what they now would "analytics" would have been called "scouting".

Like I also said,in basketball players and teams get hot/cold all the time.
That throws a big monkey wrench in analytics.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/3/2019 8:16:48 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that analytics are less beneficial, I just think they're harder to implement in real time because basketball games involve people playing basketball like pretty much all the time, while baseball and football games are 90% standing around.

That said, I suspect the lineup data would be really useful.


I think in basketball, a lot of what they now would "analytics" would have been called "scouting".

Like I also said,in basketball players and teams get hot/cold all the time.
That throws a big monkey wrench in analytics.


I dunno, man. If what's now called "analytics" used to be called "scouting" why has the NBA changed so drastically over the last half dozen years? If scouts were all saying the same things, why were they all just implemented after the rise of analytics?

Why did teams shoot so few three pointers until recently? The number of attempts has increased by 50% in 5 years. And it's grown astronomically since the three point shot was introduced. Larry Bird led the league in 3s made in 1982. He made 90. Steph Curry made 354 last year, and finished second in the league. Is such a radical change in the game just about scouting, and if so, what did scouts suddenly see that they weren't seeing before?

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 6:38:22 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I dunno, man. If what's now called "analytics" used to be called "scouting" why has the NBA changed so drastically over the last half dozen years? If scouts were all saying the same things, why were they all just implemented after the rise of analytics?

Why did teams shoot so few three pointers until recently? The number of attempts has increased by 50% in 5 years. And it's grown astronomically since the three point shot was introduced. Larry Bird led the league in 3s made in 1982. He made 90. Steph Curry made 354 last year, and finished second in the league. Is such a radical change in the game just about scouting, and if so, what did scouts suddenly see that they weren't seeing before?


Ever since professional basketball became run,gun and/or dunk,I kind of lost interest.
So I can't speak to how much the game may changed in the past few years.

I would think,if its due to analytics,teams would have adjusted to changing patterns,like defending 3 point shots.

I do have one friend who follows the Knicks and Nets.

He talks about the lack of defense in the league.

I would think,if there is a lack of defense,and guys are
open for three point shots,they'd take them.

Then again,maybe,thanks to available technology,scouts have just gotten better at their jobs .



Last Edited: 9/4/2019 7:51:36 AM by rpbobcat
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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 8:04:57 AM 
Your friend follows the Knicks so of course he sees a lack of defense.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 9:52:53 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I dunno, man. If what's now called "analytics" used to be called "scouting" why has the NBA changed so drastically over the last half dozen years? If scouts were all saying the same things, why were they all just implemented after the rise of analytics?

Why did teams shoot so few three pointers until recently? The number of attempts has increased by 50% in 5 years. And it's grown astronomically since the three point shot was introduced. Larry Bird led the league in 3s made in 1982. He made 90. Steph Curry made 354 last year, and finished second in the league. Is such a radical change in the game just about scouting, and if so, what did scouts suddenly see that they weren't seeing before?


Ever since professional basketball became run,gun and/or dunk,I kind of lost interest.
So I can't speak to how much the game may changed in the past few years.

I would think,if its due to analytics,teams would have adjusted to changing patterns,like defending 3 point shots.

I do have one friend who follows the Knicks and Nets.

He talks about the lack of defense in the league.

I would think,if there is a lack of defense,and guys are
open for three point shots,they'd take them.

Then again,maybe,thanks to available technology,scouts have just gotten better at their jobs .


NBA teams are playing better, harder defense today than they have at any point in the history of the league. I'm not sure what your friend's talking about, but he's wrong. The adjustments they've made on defense have been driven by complex analytics and the need to defend a league that's gotten smaller, faster, and where every player has the ability to handle the ball, pass and shoot.






Last Edited: 9/4/2019 10:09:03 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 10:10:03 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

NBA teams are playing better, harder defense today than they have at any point in the history of the league. I'm not sure what your friend's talking about, but he's wrong.


I grew up with the Knicks of the late 1960's.

They played some pretty hard nosed team defense.

Its impossible to compare teams from different eras in most sports.
Its really tough in basketball,especially before and after the adoption of the
3 point shot and the changes to the rules for "hand checking".

So I don't know if I'd agree that today's teams play better defense then
"at any point in the history of the league".
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 10:40:58 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

NBA teams are playing better, harder defense today than they have at any point in the history of the league. I'm not sure what your friend's talking about, but he's wrong.


I grew up with the Knicks of the late 1960's.

They played some pretty hard nosed team defense.

Its impossible to compare teams from different eras in most sports.
Its really tough in basketball,especially before and after the adoption of the
3 point shot and the changes to the rules for "hand checking".

So I don't know if I'd agree that today's teams play better defense then
"at any point in the history of the league".




That's fine. You don't have to agree.

But to be clear, we're now arguing the degree of difference between the defense played by a historically great defensive team (the Knicks of the 60s/early 70s) and teams in the NBA currently, even though the conversation started with your assertion (through your friend) that NBA teams don't play defense.

My point, which is that analytics have changed basketball drastically in a short period of time, still stands. I don't think it's just scouting.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 10:42:30 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

NBA teams are playing better, harder defense today than they have at any point in the history of the league. I'm not sure what your friend's talking about, but he's wrong.


I grew up with the Knicks of the late 1960's.

They played some pretty hard nosed team defense.

Its impossible to compare teams from different eras in most sports.
Its really tough in basketball,especially before and after the adoption of the
3 point shot and the changes to the rules for "hand checking".

So I don't know if I'd agree that today's teams play better defense then
"at any point in the history of the league".




It's a common belief that there is poor defense in the NBA when really there is just amazing athletes that are hard to stop. People like to say that the NBA was much more physical and there was better defense before, especially in the 80s, but the truth is scoring was very high in the 80s even though the 3-point shot was utilized much less. Until about three years, scoring over the 20 previous years or so was much lower than it had ever been in the shot-clock era. Scoring has gone up quite a bit the last three years but is still lower than its peak in the 60s. Shooting percentage still remains low, though 3-point shooting has gone up quickly and free throw shooting has gone up slowly. Turnovers have remained steady despite increased pace.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/4/2019 11:09:05 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I dunno, man. If what's now called "analytics" used to be called "scouting" why has the NBA changed so drastically over the last half dozen years? If scouts were all saying the same things, why were they all just implemented after the rise of analytics?

Why did teams shoot so few three pointers until recently? The number of attempts has increased by 50% in 5 years. And it's grown astronomically since the three point shot was introduced. Larry Bird led the league in 3s made in 1982. He made 90. Steph Curry made 354 last year, and finished second in the league. Is such a radical change in the game just about scouting, and if so, what did scouts suddenly see that they weren't seeing before?


Ever since professional basketball became run,gun and/or dunk,I kind of lost interest.
So I can't speak to how much the game may changed in the past few years.

I would think,if its due to analytics,teams would have adjusted to changing patterns,like defending 3 point shots.

I do have one friend who follows the Knicks and Nets.

He talks about the lack of defense in the league.

I would think,if there is a lack of defense,and guys are
open for three point shots,they'd take them.

Then again,maybe,thanks to available technology,scouts have just gotten better at their jobs .


NBA teams are playing better, harder defense today than they have at any point in the history of the league. I'm not sure what your friend's talking about, but he's wrong. The adjustments they've made on defense have been driven by complex analytics and the need to defend a league that's gotten smaller, faster, and where every player has the ability to handle the ball, pass and shoot.








Not to mention the fact that the 3pt line is deeper, forcing the defense to spread the floor which opens up space, and as you said more people are a threat to shoot the ball from deep.
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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/5/2019 9:55:52 AM 
The Cavs and Raptors were able to defeat the Warriors in their respective championship years because of their defense.
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Victory
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/8/2019 1:24:16 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


I dunno, man. If what's now called "analytics" used to be called "scouting" why has the NBA changed so drastically over the last half dozen years? If scouts were all saying the same things, why were they all just implemented after the rise of analytics?

Why did teams shoot so few three pointers until recently? The number of attempts has increased by 50% in 5 years. And it's grown astronomically since the three point shot was introduced. Larry Bird led the league in 3s made in 1982. He made 90. Steph Curry made 354 last year, and finished second in the league. Is such a radical change in the game just about scouting, and if so, what did scouts suddenly see that they weren't seeing before?


Ever since professional basketball became run,gun and/or dunk,I kind of lost interest.
So I can't speak to how much the game may changed in the past few years.

I would think,if its due to analytics,teams would have adjusted to changing patterns,like defending 3 point shots.

I do have one friend who follows the Knicks and Nets.

He talks about the lack of defense in the league.

I would think,if there is a lack of defense,and guys are
open for three point shots,they'd take them.

Then again,maybe,thanks to available technology,scouts have just gotten better at their jobs .




This change happened because of analytics. Run and try to get a dunk, a three, or a foul. I lost interest too. Less teamwork and more natural athletism is important. But this is NOT scouting. Mathematicians learned more about the game in a few years than scouts did in decades. Play the way they recommend or lose.

Baseball is now work the pitcher until you get a pitch you can drive. It is slow and boring and like basketball I watch less of it. A huge percentage of ABs end in a K, HR,or BB. But scouts did not do that. In fact scouts fought against this tooth and nail at first.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/8/2019 3:16:37 PM 
Victory wrote:


This change happened because of analytics. Run and try to get a dunk, a three, or a foul. I lost interest too. Less teamwork and more natural athletism is important. But this is NOT scouting. Mathematicians learned more about the game in a few years than scouts did in decades. Play the way they recommend or lose.

Baseball is now work the pitcher until you get a pitch you can drive. It is slow and boring and like basketball I watch less of it. A huge percentage of ABs end in a K, HR,or BB. But scouts did not do that. In fact scouts fought against this tooth and nail at first.


From what I've read,anaytics is basically high speed/high volume Data Analysis.
Computers allow much more detailed and faster analysis.
I know in my business that's helped us with computer modeling.
But you still need the raw data.
Doesn't the raw data get put together the same way it always did,from
people watching players,live or on video.
Then putting that data into a computer ?

I also think that a number of the changes to how baseball and basketball are played,have to do with the "attitude" of players.

A week or so ago WFAN was talking about who would be a good fit as the Mets next manager.

Two of the names that came up were Joe Giradi and Buck Showalter.
The baseball analysts they had on all felt,from a purely baseball perspective,the'y be great.
But none of them thought they would do well with today's players.
They said they that,for the most part,the thing baseball players care about as much as anything,is their on base percentage.Apparently this is a big consideration in contracts and Hall of Fame voting,as much as winning games.
They also said today's players wouldn't do well with how those guys feel a team should be run.

Same thing with pro basketball.

ESPN did a story about how many players,at least on teams not in championship contention,feel individual stats count more then the team.

One person said,"there's no I in team,but there is me".

Last Edited: 9/8/2019 3:19:08 PM by rpbobcat
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/8/2019 4:44:03 PM 
N.J. has legalized sports betting.Now we're constantly bombarded with commercials and informationals on companies like Fan Dual sports betting.

Even FAN has shows to go over all the betting options on every pro game.

Does anyone know if there are companies offering/using alaytics for sports betting ?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 8:55:30 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Victory wrote:


This change happened because of analytics. Run and try to get a dunk, a three, or a foul. I lost interest too. Less teamwork and more natural athletism is important. But this is NOT scouting. Mathematicians learned more about the game in a few years than scouts did in decades. Play the way they recommend or lose.

Baseball is now work the pitcher until you get a pitch you can drive. It is slow and boring and like basketball I watch less of it. A huge percentage of ABs end in a K, HR,or BB. But scouts did not do that. In fact scouts fought against this tooth and nail at first.


From what I've read,anaytics is basically high speed/high volume Data Analysis.
Computers allow much more detailed and faster analysis.
I know in my business that's helped us with computer modeling.
But you still need the raw data.
Doesn't the raw data get put together the same way it always did,from
people watching players,live or on video.
Then putting that data into a computer ?

I also think that a number of the changes to how baseball and basketball are played,have to do with the "attitude" of players.

A week or so ago WFAN was talking about who would be a good fit as the Mets next manager.

Two of the names that came up were Joe Giradi and Buck Showalter.
The baseball analysts they had on all felt,from a purely baseball perspective,the'y be great.
But none of them thought they would do well with today's players.
They said they that,for the most part,the thing baseball players care about as much as anything,is their on base percentage.Apparently this is a big consideration in contracts and Hall of Fame voting,as much as winning games.
They also said today's players wouldn't do well with how those guys feel a team should be run.

Same thing with pro basketball.

ESPN did a story about how many players,at least on teams not in championship contention,feel individual stats count more then the team.

One person said,"there's no I in team,but there is me".


The raw data goes well beyond what traditional scouts can observe and input. There are now literally millions of data points that never existed before.

Want to know a player's average speed? Exactly how many miles per game somebody runs? The exact amount of space, down to the millimeter that player x creates when coming off of a screen? Want to understand how much additional space a good shooter's presence creates for his teammates, down to the millimeter? Want to know how that differs when said player is at the top of the arc vs. in a corner? And how each additional foot beyond the arc impacts that?

There are literally thousands of cameras tracking every movement, and that footage can be dissected in real time. It is literally impossible for scouts to gather that info.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not really sure what to tell you. I think professional athletes like to win, and think the adoption of analytics is purely about giving them an edge to help in that pursuit. You seem to think otherwise. I doubt that's a bridge we're going to gap.


Last Edited: 9/9/2019 10:18:47 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 9:39:40 AM 
Going a bit O.T.,but staying within "Embracing Technology".

I'm sure the baseball fans here know about the Atlantic League using an automated Ball-Strike System for the rest of this season.

One of the teams in the league are the Long Island Ducks.

So this has gotten a significant amount of press in this area.

Last week they were talking about it on WFAN.

The consensus of their hosts was that,if there aren't any major glitches, MLB will be going to this in the very near future.

The biggest "positive" seems to be "uniformity" in calling balls and strikes.

Just wondered how the people here felt about it ?
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 10:14:52 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Going a bit O.T.,but staying within "Embracing Technology".

I'm sure the baseball fans here know about the Atlantic League using an automated Ball-Strike System for the rest of this season.

One of the teams in the league are the Long Island Ducks.

So this has gotten a significant amount of press in this area.

Last week they were talking about it on WFAN.

The consensus of their hosts was that,if there aren't any major glitches, MLB will be going to this in the very near future.

The biggest "positive" seems to be "uniformity" in calling balls and strikes.

Just wondered how the people here felt about it ?






I'm a baseball traditionalist but I see no reason not to go to the automated system. I haven't seen the system in use but I'm assuming the calls are made quickly and clearly.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 10:23:49 AM 
OUVan wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
Going a bit O.T.,but staying within "Embracing Technology".

I'm sure the baseball fans here know about the Atlantic League using an automated Ball-Strike System for the rest of this season.

One of the teams in the league are the Long Island Ducks.

So this has gotten a significant amount of press in this area.

Last week they were talking about it on WFAN.

The consensus of their hosts was that,if there aren't any major glitches, MLB will be going to this in the very near future.

The biggest "positive" seems to be "uniformity" in calling balls and strikes.

Just wondered how the people here felt about it ?






I'm a baseball traditionalist but I see no reason not to go to the automated system. I haven't seen the system in use but I'm assuming the calls are made quickly and clearly.


Yep, if it's better and more accurate, that brings fairness to the game.

The only real downside is how bored the home plate umpire's going to be. He/She will basically just be standing there for plays at the plate. A close play at the plate occurs every few games, I'd imagine.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 10:42:07 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Going a bit O.T.,but staying within "Embracing Technology".

I'm sure the baseball fans here know about the Atlantic League using an automated Ball-Strike System for the rest of this season.

One of the teams in the league are the Long Island Ducks.

So this has gotten a significant amount of press in this area.

Last week they were talking about it on WFAN.

The consensus of their hosts was that,if there aren't any major glitches, MLB will be going to this in the very near future.

The biggest "positive" seems to be "uniformity" in calling balls and strikes.

Just wondered how the people here felt about it ?





Personally, I'm very much against it. The game (all sports really) is meant to be played and officiated by humans - not computers. The human element of umpires is part of the game.

I would rather seem them publicly use the computer video calls to evaluate the umpires that most frequently get it right, and have the umpires get post-season opportunities based on their accuracy. Also, it could help minor league umps get a call up, and umps that aren't cutting it in MLB get sent down.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 10:50:47 AM 
Those strike zone boxes are often wrong and they don't take into account the height of the hitter. Keep the umps and keep harping on them to be consistent.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 11:18:22 AM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Those strike zone boxes are often wrong and they don't take into account the height of the hitter. Keep the umps and keep harping on them to be consistent.


For what it's worth, I think the strike zone boxes on telecasts differs from the technology referenced here.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 11:23:03 AM 
Games are played with a human element, mistakes will be made. Lets just go with robot players and virtual simulations for the games, that way I wouldn't have to watch my favorite team send an outfielder out to RF with a brick in his glove. Errors and mistakes are a part of the game.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Embracing Technology
   Posted: 9/9/2019 11:39:54 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Games are played with a human element, mistakes will be made. Lets just go with robot players and virtual simulations for the games, that way I wouldn't have to watch my favorite team send an outfielder out to RF with a brick in his glove. Errors and mistakes are a part of the game.


I agree with the "human element" to some extent.

But I also don't like when a blown call directly affects the outcome of a game/match etc.

I think that's one reason why tennis has embraced using electronics to see if a
ball is in/out/on the line.

Given the variation in strike zones between umpires,I can see why MLB is considering ABS for consistency.

What I would really like to see is a system that can objectively judge gymnastics and diving.
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