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Topic:  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53

Topic:  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 8:15:40 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I watched the Akron-Kent game last night. Man can Akron defend. If they ever put it all together on the offensive side, like they did last night in the 2nd half, they're going to be a really tough out and make some noise in the conference tournament.


Careful with Groce praise here Graff. Remember, Groce can't coach and he got lucky at Ohio with March success.


Groce left us, we didnt fire him. It's not like we get to choose between the two coaches. This thread is just silly.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 10:13:38 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I watched the Akron-Kent game last night. Man can Akron defend. If they ever put it all together on the offensive side, like they did last night in the 2nd half, they're going to be a really tough out and make some noise in the conference tournament.


Careful with Groce praise here Graff. Remember, Groce can't coach and he got lucky at Ohio with March success.


And he has a blistering all time record of 46- 46 in the super tough MAC.

Maybe Duke will hire him to replace Coach K down the road .. lol




We get it Jerry....Groce was and is sub-par in your eyes. I hope you've enjoyed all the participation ribbons and trophies during the last 5 years of #SaulBall


Haha. Sorry that FACTS get you so riled up. Deal with them.



FACTS: Two Groce coached Ohio teams in four years made the NCAA Tournament and won NCAA Tourney games in each big dance appearance.

FACTS: Five #SaulBall coached Ohio led teams in five years made ZERO NCAA Tournaments.

I don't get riled up when it comes to this topic. I let the banners that Groce hung in the Convo speak for themselves. You can go back to counting your participation ribbons now.


So Groce is NOT a 50% Winning coach in MAC games?

Further am I comparing Groce and Phillips? Nope. I'm trying to comprehend your obsession or hardon for Groce. He won a few games at the right time which everyone acknowledges. MAC dynasties are not built .. teams have some good years and then often revert to the mean. Follow the game long enough and you'll see how the conference works. You can have the last word but I do laugh at your posts often.

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 10:41:48 AM 
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I watched the Akron-Kent game last night. Man can Akron defend. If they ever put it all together on the offensive side, like they did last night in the 2nd half, they're going to be a really tough out and make some noise in the conference tournament.


Careful with Groce praise here Graff. Remember, Groce can't coach and he got lucky at Ohio with March success.


And he has a blistering all time record of 46- 46 in the super tough MAC.

Maybe Duke will hire him to replace Coach K down the road .. lol




We get it Jerry....Groce was and is sub-par in your eyes. I hope you've enjoyed all the participation ribbons and trophies during the last 5 years of #SaulBall


Haha. Sorry that FACTS get you so riled up. Deal with them.



FACTS: Two Groce coached Ohio teams in four years made the NCAA Tournament and won NCAA Tourney games in each big dance appearance.

FACTS: Five #SaulBall coached Ohio led teams in five years made ZERO NCAA Tournaments.

I don't get riled up when it comes to this topic. I let the banners that Groce hung in the Convo speak for themselves. You can go back to counting your participation ribbons now.


So Groce is NOT a 50% Winning coach in MAC games?

Further am I comparing Groce and Phillips? Nope. I'm trying to comprehend your obsession or hardon for Groce. He won a few games at the right time which everyone acknowledges. MAC dynasties are not built .. teams have some good years and then often revert to the mean. Follow the game long enough and you'll see how the conference works. You can have the last word but I do laugh at your posts often.



Jerry...been following the MAC game for a long, long time. I know how this conference works. Coaches in this league are remembered for NCAA Tourney last seconds shots by Robert Tatum or smacking Georgetown and Michigan in the face in the big dance and coming within one missed FT away from the Elite 8. Or a Buffalo team pounding Arizona in March. Kent State's run to the Elite 8. Or a Ball State squad coming within a whisker of stunning UNLV. Trust me, I know this league extremely well.

You have no idea how many people are laughing at you when you dismiss the Groce era so easily. You really should study up on MAC basketball more. And by the way....who said John Groce was the second coming of Coach K? I never said that and I don't believe anyone else on this board said it either. Again, study up on the league Jerry.

Last Edited: 2/10/2019 11:51:00 AM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 12:37:00 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I watched the Akron-Kent game last night. Man can Akron defend. If they ever put it all together on the offensive side, like they did last night in the 2nd half, they're going to be a really tough out and make some noise in the conference tournament.


Careful with Groce praise here Graff. Remember, Groce can't coach and he got lucky at Ohio with March success.


And he has a blistering all time record of 46- 46 in the super tough MAC.

Maybe Duke will hire him to replace Coach K down the road .. lol




We get it Jerry....Groce was and is sub-par in your eyes. I hope you've enjoyed all the participation ribbons and trophies during the last 5 years of #SaulBall


Haha. Sorry that FACTS get you so riled up. Deal with them.



FACTS: Two Groce coached Ohio teams in four years made the NCAA Tournament and won NCAA Tourney games in each big dance appearance.

FACTS: Five #SaulBall coached Ohio led teams in five years made ZERO NCAA Tournaments.

I don't get riled up when it comes to this topic. I let the banners that Groce hung in the Convo speak for themselves. You can go back to counting your participation ribbons now.


So Groce is NOT a 50% Winning coach in MAC games?

Further am I comparing Groce and Phillips? Nope. I'm trying to comprehend your obsession or hardon for Groce. He won a few games at the right time which everyone acknowledges. MAC dynasties are not built .. teams have some good years and then often revert to the mean. Follow the game long enough and you'll see how the conference works. You can have the last word but I do laugh at your posts often.



Jerry...been following the MAC game for a long, long time. I know how this conference works. Coaches in this league are remembered for NCAA Tourney last seconds shots by Robert Tatum or smacking Georgetown and Michigan in the face in the big dance and coming within one missed FT away from the Elite 8. Or a Buffalo team pounding Arizona in March. Kent State's run to the Elite 8. Or a Ball State squad coming within a whisker of stunning UNLV. Trust me, I know this league extremely well.

You have no idea how many people are laughing at you when you dismiss the Groce era so easily. You really should study up on MAC basketball more. And by the way....who said John Groce was the second coming of Coach K? I never said that and I don't believe anyone else on this board said it either. Again, study up on the league Jerry.


I don't think you realize who people here are laughing at. Your inability to turn the page on the Groce era is bordering on pathetic, my man. We won some games in March. It was a lot of fun. But that was a long time ago and Groce left Ohio seven years ago. At this point, you're basically the 25 year old dude who is still obsessed with the girlfriend that broke up with him senior year of high school.

You gotta move on, man. John Groce did a long, long time ago. He's not coming back.

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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 1:15:38 PM 
John Groce is gone. He's not coming back. I'm pretty sure everybody (aside from a few in the coaches thread) fully understand that.

I don't necessarily want John Groce back.

Boy, I sure would take his teams, program and success back in a heartbeat though.

Let's hope our next coach is the next/new and improved John Groce.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 3:10:23 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
. . .Let's hope our next coach is the next/new and improved John Groce.


Me like this idea . . . the new improve John Groce. Would that be one who wins during the regular season as well as during tournament time? That's the man I'm after!


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection.

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 3:54:48 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
John Groce is gone. He's not coming back. I'm pretty sure everybody (aside from a few in the coaches thread) fully understand that.


While his return may be "unlikely", I don't see it as pie-in-the-sky fantasy. There's a lot of examples where a guy like Groce comes back to the program where they got their start.

Would we may able to make a compelling offer to get him to leave Akron? Who knows. But if I were creating Vegas odds on our next head coach, he's likely in the top 5 candidates on the betting line.

A creative, forward-looking athletic director would honestly make Groce his first call. It would be a way to immediately invigorate life to this rather moribund program. IMO, Schaus may have a bit too much pride and/or angst against JG to make it happen. But you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't a savvy move.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 4:40:27 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
John Groce is gone. He's not coming back. I'm pretty sure everybody (aside from a few in the coaches thread) fully understand that.


While his return may be "unlikely", I don't see it as pie-in-the-sky fantasy. There's a lot of examples where a guy like Groce comes back to the program where they got their start.

Would we may able to make a compelling offer to get him to leave Akron? Who knows. But if I were creating Vegas odds on our next head coach, he's likely in the top 5 candidates on the betting line.

A creative, forward-looking athletic director would honestly make Groce his first call. It would be a way to immediately invigorate life to this rather moribund program. IMO, Schaus may have a bit too much pride and/or angst against JG to make it happen. But you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't a savvy move.


I think it's absolutely pie-in-the-sky and the fact that so many people here think it's possible speaks to how delusional folks here can be about what and where our program is. It's not as delusional as folks here calling for us to hire Thad Matta or Tommy Amaker, but it's not that far off, either.

How would that call go?

"Hey, John, how are things? Listen, the reason I'm calling is that I was wondering if you wanted to leave two years into the rebuilding situation you took over at Akron to start in on a three or four year rebuild here in Athens.

What's that? Oh, the pay? Yeah, it's gonna be a bit less than you're making at Akron. Or, you know, maybe more than a bit less. New President and all. What can you do?

What do we offer that Akron doesn't? Great question, I'm glad you asked. For one thing, our roster is completely bereft of talent. You know how you're bringing back basically your entire team next season and how that team's better than ours? Well good news, in Athens you get a clean slate. For another, we give your family an amazing opportunity to move again. I know how you must love that.

But finally, and most importantly, we can offer you a job for life. The same way it was Saul's job for life. The job's yours forever, unless you don't make the tournament in the first 5 years, then the fanbase will start calling for your head and comparing you to the John Groce of yore. That John Groce was amazing. Have you ever met him?

Anyhow, what do you think, should I send a car to bring you to the airport? Hello? Hello?"

We really have to move on from John Groce. His tenure here provides a solid blueprint for how we should approach this coaching search, but the fact that people can't move past a Sweet 16 appearance 7 years ago is a problem. It causes people to lose sight of the reality of where things actually stand now and the work and time it will take to get back there.

Last Edited: 2/10/2019 4:45:13 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 4:57:43 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
I think it's absolutely pie-in-the-sky and the fact that so many people here think it's possible speaks to how delusional folks here can be about what and where our program is. It's not as delusional as folks here calling for us to hire Thad Matta or Tommy Amaker, but it's not that far off, either.


The only things making it delusional are:
1. Schaus' lack of creativity and/or foolish pride
2. Inability to offer a competitive salary

The fact that our new administration has us in a position that we can't offer a competitive salary when compared to Akron is sad. They are literally on the verge of bankruptcy as an institution. Yet, here we are.

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 5:13:02 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
catfan28 wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
John Groce is gone. He's not coming back. I'm pretty sure everybody (aside from a few in the coaches thread) fully understand that.


While his return may be "unlikely", I don't see it as pie-in-the-sky fantasy. There's a lot of examples where a guy like Groce comes back to the program where they got their start.

Would we may able to make a compelling offer to get him to leave Akron? Who knows. But if I were creating Vegas odds on our next head coach, he's likely in the top 5 candidates on the betting line.

A creative, forward-looking athletic director would honestly make Groce his first call. It would be a way to immediately invigorate life to this rather moribund program. IMO, Schaus may have a bit too much pride and/or angst against JG to make it happen. But you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't a savvy move.




We really have to move on from John Groce. His tenure here provides a solid blueprint for how we should approach this coaching search, but the fact that people can't move past a Sweet 16 appearance 7 years ago is a problem. It causes people to lose sight of the reality of where things actually stand now and the work and time it will take to get back there.


John Groce coming back to Ohio is ludicrous. I'm not in that camp at all. Would never happen in a million years. That isn't my point with my posts. I just laugh at the folks who continue to undervalue what Groce accomplished at Ohio....case closed..end of story. I moved on from JG seven years ago when he left, but I'll always respect what he pulled off in four short years at Ohio. Since then, Schaus has whiffed on two hires. One coach the players couldn't stand....Christian......and the other coach...Phillips....who was in way over his head and underestimated what he needed to recruit player wise in this league to compete. And now he has officially lost the team. Sorry, one full week to prepare for Miami and you lose by 20 points? Sure looks like a team full of players that can't wait for the season to end soon.

Last Edited: 2/10/2019 5:17:41 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 5:56:11 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
John Groce coming back to Ohio is ludicrous. I'm not in that camp at all. Would never happen in a million years.


The amount of coaches that reprise their roles at "lower" institutions after trying to move "up" is staggering. I'm puzzled as to why the concept seems so ludicrous. This article is football-specific, but it gets the point across. Many similar examples in the hoops world too: https://www.theuconnblog.com/2017/1/3/14150946/the-recent...

A forward-looking AD and president (neither of which we have) offers JG $700K with a 6 year deal to come back. My bet is that he would strongly consider it.

Will it happen? Doubt it. But as I said, he'd be near the top of my betting line right now vs. an otherwise wide-open field.

Last Edited: 2/10/2019 5:57:20 PM by catfan28

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 6:03:33 PM 
It's obviously time for the big pocket guys and gals here on BA to step to the plate and make Groce 2.0 happen. Money talks. And, while you're at it, send some extra millions for BTC's 35,000 seat stadium.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 6:26:03 PM 
catfan28 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
John Groce coming back to Ohio is ludicrous. I'm not in that camp at all. Would never happen in a million years.


The amount of coaches that reprise their roles at "lower" institutions after trying to move "up" is staggering. I'm puzzled as to why the concept seems so ludicrous. This article is football-specific, but it gets the point across. Many similar examples in the hoops world too: https://www.theuconnblog.com/2017/1/3/14150946/the-recent...

A forward-looking AD and president (neither of which we have) offers JG $700K with a 6 year deal to come back. My bet is that he would strongly consider it.

Will it happen? Doubt it. But as I said, he'd be near the top of my betting line right now vs. an otherwise wide-open field.


It's ludicrous because Groce is already reprising his career at Akron, who is paying him more than we will, and is better positioned to win soon.


How many of the coaches cited returned to a school from another school in the same conference?

Last Edited: 2/10/2019 6:26:59 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 6:45:10 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
. . . in football they say, "What they'll remember is November." In basketball, it's, "What they remember is March." While not as alliterative, it's just as true, IMHO.


Both sayings are equally alliterative.

I'm very curious what accent you speak with!


Not sure what my accent has to do with alliteration. Correct me if I'm wrong OCF, and you can ask your wife for help if necessary, but isn't alliteration the use of the same beginning sound for consecutive words?

If so, does "A November to remember" display any alliteration? Rhymes, yes. Alliteration, no. "What they remember in March" has no rhyming nor alliteration. Therefore, both saying are equally alliterative.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/10/2019 7:07:46 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
. . . in football they say, "What they'll remember is November." In basketball, it's, "What they remember is March." While not as alliterative, it's just as true, IMHO.


Both sayings are equally alliterative.

I'm very curious what accent you speak with!


Not sure what my accent has to do with alliteration. Correct me if I'm wrong OCF, and you can ask your wife for help if necessary, but isn't alliteration the use of the same beginning sound for consecutive words?

If so, does "A November to remember" display any alliteration? Rhymes, yes. Alliteration, no. "What they remember in March" has no rhyming nor alliteration. Therefore, both saying are equally alliterative.


My bad! You are absolute correct, Sir! I was typing alliteration and thinking rhyme. So, I'm going to blame my fingers rather than my brain. :-)


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection.

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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/11/2019 7:39:54 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I watched the Akron-Kent game last night. Man can Akron defend. If they ever put it all together on the offensive side, like they did last night in the 2nd half, they're going to be a really tough out and make some noise in the conference tournament.


Careful with Groce praise here Graff. Remember, Groce can't coach and he got lucky at Ohio with March success.


And he has a blistering all time record of 46- 46 in the super tough MAC.

Maybe Duke will hire him to replace Coach K down the road .. lol




We get it Jerry....Groce was and is sub-par in your eyes. I hope you've enjoyed all the participation ribbons and trophies during the last 5 years of #SaulBall


Haha. Sorry that FACTS get you so riled up. Deal with them.



FACTS: Two Groce coached Ohio teams in four years made the NCAA Tournament and won NCAA Tourney games in each big dance appearance.

FACTS: Five #SaulBall coached Ohio led teams in five years made ZERO NCAA Tournaments.

I don't get riled up when it comes to this topic. I let the banners that Groce hung in the Convo speak for themselves. You can go back to counting your participation ribbons now.


So Groce is NOT a 50% Winning coach in MAC games?

Further am I comparing Groce and Phillips? Nope. I'm trying to comprehend your obsession or hardon for Groce. He won a few games at the right time which everyone acknowledges. MAC dynasties are not built .. teams have some good years and then often revert to the mean. Follow the game long enough and you'll see how the conference works. You can have the last word but I do laugh at your posts often.



Jerry...been following the MAC game for a long, long time. I know how this conference works. Coaches in this league are remembered for NCAA Tourney last seconds shots by Robert Tatum or smacking Georgetown and Michigan in the face in the big dance and coming within one missed FT away from the Elite 8. Or a Buffalo team pounding Arizona in March. Kent State's run to the Elite 8. Or a Ball State squad coming within a whisker of stunning UNLV. Trust me, I know this league extremely well.

You have no idea how many people are laughing at you when you dismiss the Groce era so easily. You really should study up on MAC basketball more. And by the way....who said John Groce was the second coming of Coach K? I never said that and I don't believe anyone else on this board said it either. Again, study up on the league Jerry.



I've forgotten more about Ohio basketball than you will ever know, trust me. I acknowledged the NCAA wins. Groce has had player personnel issues at Ohio, Illinois and Akron. I'm not big on guys getting charged with assault I guess. Maybe that's okay with you.

Last Edited: 2/11/2019 7:43:49 AM by Jerry86

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/11/2019 8:15:44 AM 
We need to convene a meeting of those who have "forgotten more about Ohio basketball than you will ever know." This claim has been made by three different participants in the past few days.

If they can get together, will they be able to uncover those deeply hidden, forgotten facts? Can they put on a "master class" to help bring the rest of us up to speed?

Or are they simply residing in memory care units across the state? (If so, is one a neighbor of OCF?)




Last Edited: 2/11/2019 8:18:13 AM by SBH

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/11/2019 8:18:41 AM 
At this point for 2019, FearLeon is 100% Akron fan and 0% Ohio fan.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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longtiimelurker
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/11/2019 9:02:06 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
At this point for 2019, FearLeon is 100% Akron fan and 0% Ohio fan.


That pendulum will swing in #(iforgethowmany)days
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/11/2019 10:23:54 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
At this point for 2019, FearLeon is 100% Akron fan and 0% Ohio fan.


You could not be more wrong.

Last Edited: 2/11/2019 10:35:57 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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OrlandoCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 2:46:54 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
At this point for 2019, FearLeon is 100% Akron fan and 0% Ohio fan.


If given the choice, would you rather go through the 4 Groce years again or the last 5 Philips years?

According to you, if you make the obvious answer, allow me to direct you to your new posting grounds:

http://zipsnation.org/forums /
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 7:51:36 AM 
OrlandoCat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
At this point for 2019, FearLeon is 100% Akron fan and 0% Ohio fan.


If given the choice, would you rather go through the 4 Groce years again or the last 5 Philips years?

According to you, if you make the obvious answer, allow me to direct you to your new posting grounds:

http://zipsnation.org/forums /


This argument has two factions:

1. People who acknowledge the healthy dose of luck it takes to win in March

and

2. People who can't read the above statement without inexplicably thinking that saying so belittles what Groce's teams accomplished and is somehow a defense of Saul.

One of those two factions is logical and reasonable. I'll let you guess which.

There is nobody here arguing that they prefer Saul's tenure to Groce's. Full stop.

People are simply saying that there's a classy way to handle a coach's departure, and then there are threads like this one, which is classless, mouth-breathing garbage that attacks an imagined adversary to make a tired, universally acknowledged point.

Last Edited: 2/12/2019 8:03:19 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 8:23:12 AM 
Thank you BLSS. My point is FearLeon clearly salivates at his next chance to say "Ha! See! I told you all so!" He has spread the same message 1,000 times over. It's only natural that he end up hoping for that message to be validated, which is clearly the case with this thread and his gleaming over Akron's 1st round MAC win last March. If Akron makes a run to the semis this year, he'll be over the moon excited.


Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 9:20:48 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


1. People who acknowledge the healthy dose of luck it takes to win in March



I agree with this, and I know that 2010 in particular is an example of the stars just barely aligning. That said, any dose of luck has to include the ingredients needed to actually succeed. The 2010 team famously underachieved and had plenty of dysfunction. They got it together but they had the talent the whole time. Most of the starters went on to play pro ball in Europe, with Cooper starring in elite leagues. The last time this program recruited guys like that was when Jim Christian was recruiting Tone, pulling in Ndour and audaciously trying to lure Tariq Owens to Athens. Groce and Christian shot for the moon and sometimes got it -- THAT is what it takes to win in March, and all the luck in the world won't help if you don't have guys like that.

Saul's best two "gets" in five years are Ryan Taylor and Simmons. Their departures are not "bad luck" no matter what anyone says.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Groce Ball 65 Saul Ball 53
   Posted: 2/12/2019 9:53:28 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:


1. People who acknowledge the healthy dose of luck it takes to win in March



I agree with this, and I know that 2010 in particular is an example of the stars just barely aligning. That said, any dose of luck has to include the ingredients needed to actually succeed. The 2010 team famously underachieved and had plenty of dysfunction. They got it together but they had the talent the whole time. Most of the starters went on to play pro ball in Europe, with Cooper starring in elite leagues. The last time this program recruited guys like that was when Jim Christian was recruiting Tone, pulling in Ndour and audaciously trying to lure Tariq Owens to Athens. Groce and Christian shot for the moon and sometimes got it -- THAT is what it takes to win in March, and all the luck in the world won't help if you don't have guys like that.

Saul's best two "gets" in five years are Ryan Taylor and Simmons. Their departures are not "bad luck" no matter what anyone says.


I agree completely that Saul didn't put the talent on the floor. Don't dispute that at all.

My take is basically that the late rounds of the MAC tournament and early rounds of the NCAA tournament should be thought of similarly to how the Moneyball crew thought of playoff baseball. Essentially, the sample-size is too small to really count on anything, and the best you can do is build a team that gets you to that point in the season and gives you the opportunity for the chips to fall in your favor.

And I think that's the basic point most folks are making about Groce. We won some really exciting games and went on some great runs, but did so with some uneven if very talented teams. That we went to the Sweet 16 shouldn't alter how we benchmark success for our basketball program. We want a coach who recruits talented players and gives the program the opportunity to win games that matter, but I'm not convinced that it's the right expectation that we insist on an NCAA tournament appearance every few years. There's just too much variability and luck that goes into that.
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