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Topic:  RE: Coach Phillips' future

Topic:  RE: Coach Phillips' future
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/2/2019 6:22:18 PM 
This is nothing against Saul. I think he's doing a great job.

Where is the money coming from? TV? Attendance? Money games on the road? Local media market? Donations?

It's coming from student fees.
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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 9:45:30 AM 
It would be interesting to compare Saul's years; W-L & attendance records against the previous 4-5 years.
If I was a betting man I would say that W-L was worse as well as attendance. We paid Saul more than any of the previous 2 coaches.
End of discussion.





GO BOBCATS
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 11:08:52 AM 
71 BOBCAT wrote:
It would be interesting to compare Saul's years; W-L & attendance records against the previous 4-5 years.
If I was a betting man I would say that W-L was worse as well as attendance. We paid Saul more than any of the previous 2 coaches.
End of discussion.



The amount paid in the coaches' contracts and the attendance and W/L aren't always going to correlate. It literally happens all over D1 basketball on a daily/weekly/monthly/annual basis. I would hope we can all understand that. I would also assume you can understand that the cards dealt to Saul haven't exactly been an easy hand to work with in some cases. How many of the previous three coaches have had seasons where they lost one their best two players (or both of the two) to grad transfer or injury? The last one prior to Saul being here that I can think of is Jeremy Fears in 2005-06 when he left midseason. And we cheered him when he came back and was introduced at halftime a month ago. Or at least myself and many of the people around me did.

Don't get me wrong, the injury bug is not the only flaw causing the current regime's setbacks. Defensive struggles, some recruiting setbacks, and holding certain players accountable are too. But at the end of the day, good players make coaches look good, and losing chunks of, or whole seasons with Campbell, Simmons, Dartis, Carter, and Vanden Plas have had huge effects on the end results. Those five guys are arguably among the best 8 players to have played here since 2014.

Also, if we all want to bitch about and compare the ROI to W/L and attendance we should then complain that JC, who got paid more than Groce, also "failed" in the eyes of this board, and then left two years into his contract. Oh wait, we've already done that in the past as well. At least we're consistent around here.

Listen, at the end of the season, Saul more than likely moves on to some other gig, and we get another coach. Hopefully the other coach plays a different style, better defense, and most importantly, makes all the naysayer's on Bobcat Attack happier.



Twitter: @ou_country

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 11:24:50 AM 
giacomo wrote:
This is nothing against Saul. I think he's doing a great job.

Where is the money coming from? TV? Attendance? Money games on the road? Local media market? Donations?

It's coming from student fees.


Isn't it safe to assume that the vast majority of money is probably coming from TV and student fees across the whole of the MAC, and most of it's peer conferences?

And I'm not sure he's doing a "great" job. He's doing an OK job, at least on the court. Eighteen months ago, I might have said he was doing a good job. His flaw, and his coaching staff's flaw, is that they seem like they struggle to adapt quickly enough what they do as a team. His stubbornness and loyalty to his staff are great things, when things are going well. When they aren't, you've gotta consider the adage of "doing the same things and expecting different results"....well, you know the rest.

I'd ask why his assistants have remained the same over several years At some point, I'd expect some of them to move on for greener pastures, because that seems to be the normal nature of the game. That they aren't is troubling in a small way. Unless I'm mistaken, only Fuss has moved on, a move that I think might have been a small set back for Ohio.



Twitter: @ou_country

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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 12:57:30 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
71 BOBCAT wrote:
It would be interesting to compare Saul's years; W-L & attendance records against the previous 4-5 years.
If I was a betting man I would say that W-L was worse as well as attendance. We paid Saul more than any of the previous 2 coaches.
End of discussion.



and most importantly, makes all the naysayer's on Bobcat Attack happier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54BCLYNkFKg
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 1:00:38 PM 
giacomo wrote:
This is nothing against Saul. I think he's doing a great job.


Great job? Based on what?
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Brian Smith
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 3:10:33 PM 
At this point after being dangled in the air for a season, I wonder if the relationship would be bad enough that even if Saul pulls out a MAC tourney win would he do a lateral move after the season even if then offered an extension?


Been kicking up sparks/we set the flames free/The windows are locked now so what'll it be?/A house on fire or a rising sea?

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 5:32:38 PM 
Can't imagine why he'd feel he has gotten the bad end of this relationship. It's a bottom-line business and his bottom line has sucked 2 of his five years and been only mediocre-plus the other three.
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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 6:35:20 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
At this point after being dangled in the air for a season, I wonder if the relationship would be bad enough that even if Saul pulls out a MAC tourney win would he do a lateral move after the season even if then offered an extension?


No extension will be offered. Period. Ohio has made its decision. If they were going to extend him, they would have already.

Even if he miraculously win the MAC Tourney, he'd bolt for another job.

The marriage is over.

It's been a disappointing tenure to say the least. As it's been stated over and over on this site, he was not dealt the best hand over the last five years.

But even when he's had a competitive team on the floor ... the shortcomings were obvious. They are not an athletic team ... not a gritty team. And I would love for someone to go back and look up how many double-digit runs Ohio has let up in the SaulBall Era. It's remarkable how almost every game Ohio allows a 12-0 or 21-4 run. It's almost like clockwork.

I think Saul is a great dude ... and I really wished it worked out. But this program needs a new face for a laundry list of reasons.

Here's hoping they can squeeze out a 9-9 MAC season ... but I'm not holding my breath.
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Cleveburg Bri
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 6:39:38 PM 
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)

Christian (2 yrs)
Overall: 49-22(.690)
MAC:25-9(.732)
No NCAA
1 NIT (yr 1)
1 CIT (yr 2)

Groce (4 yrs)
Overall: 85-56(.603)
MAC: 34-30(.531)
2 NCAA (yrs 2 & 4)
1 CIT (yr 3)

O'Shea (7 yrs)
Overall: 120-95(.558)
MAC: 66-57(.537)
1 NCAA (yr 4)
1 CBI (yr 7)

Hunter (12 yrs)
Overall: 204-148(.580)
MAC: 123-87(.586)
1 NCAA (yr 5)
1 NIT (yr 6)

Hahn (3 yrs)
Overall: 42-45(.482)
MAC: 21-27(.438)
No postseason

Nee (6 yrs)
Overall: 107-67(.615)
MAC: 68-36(.654)
2 NCAA (yr 3 & 5)
1 NIT (yr 6)

Bandy (6 yrs)
Overall: 69-89(.437)
No Postseason

Snyder (25 yrs)
Overall: 355-245(.592)
7 NCAA (yrs 11,12,15,16,21,23,25)
1 NIT (yr 20)


Last Edited: 1/3/2019 6:54:37 PM by Cleveburg Bri

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 7:00:02 PM 
Cleveburg Bri wrote:
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)



To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT
#1-1/2MonthsMACTournamentChampionshipOrBust #ForSaulBall

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bobcat28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 8:51:35 PM 
He will make a great coach in the D3 WIAC someday.
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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 9:56:52 PM 
I've been saying it for awhile now with regards to Saul - he is Billy Hahn.

Great guy. Likeable guy. Players like him. Questions about accountability/discipline at times. Had some great individual players. Never had much actual on-court success at OU (or at least it's been mediocre at best). Their winning percentages are quite similar.

Last Edited: 1/3/2019 9:57:50 PM by GraffZ06

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 10:38:41 PM 
GraffZ06 wrote:
I've been saying it for awhile now with regards to Saul - he is Billy Hahn.

Great guy. Likeable guy. Players like him. Questions about accountability/discipline at times. Had some great individual players. Never had much actual on-court success at OU (or at least it's been mediocre at best). Their winning percentages are quite similar.


I get why so many people are willing to go to bat for him. He's a wonderful guy from what I can tell in meeting him a few times. His players all seem like good people and they have done all the right things off court as far as I can tell. His family seems incredible. He's an asset to the community...

Except he doesn't win basketball games. Like it or not, that's the biggest way a coach gets evaluated at this level. I wish it worked out because he's easy to root for. I wish it worked out so we weren't working on a fifth straight disappointing season. I wish it worked out so we didn't have so many unanswered questions even before the season is over.

It hasn't worked, and nothing short of a miracle will keep us from a coaching search in a couple of months.
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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/3/2019 10:45:20 PM 
Snyder doesnít make the NCAA until year 12 of his tenure. What does that tell you? He was considered a professor and was paid like one. No one got all riled up that we didnít get what we paid for.
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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 12:37:32 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Snyder doesnít make the NCAA until year 12 of his tenure. What does that tell you? He was considered a professor and was paid like one. No one got all riled up that we didnít get what we paid for.


You really trying to compare college basketball coaches expectations from 50 years ago to today?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 5:20:33 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Snyder doesnít make the NCAA until year 12 of his tenure. What does that tell you? He was considered a professor and was paid like one. No one got all riled up that we didnít get what we paid for.


It tells me they did NOT take 64 teams, infact, when Coach Snyder began coaching only 8 teams even made the tournament. The first year he made the tournament was 59-60, and a whopping 25 teams made the tournament with 3 teams getting a bye. When he retired a whopping 32 teams were in the tournament. So letís please make decent comparisons!

Interesting note, only Danny and Larry had higher MAC winning percentage than OOC winning percentage. Oh to have the days where we challenged ourselves a few times OOC
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 6:45:38 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:


It tells me they did NOT take 64 teams, infact, when Coach Snyder began coaching only 8 teams even made the tournament. The first year he made the tournament was 59-60, and a whopping 25 teams made the tournament with 3 teams getting a bye. When he retired a whopping 32 teams were in the tournament. So letís please make decent comparisons!



If you're talking about "decent comparisons",for a significant portion of Coach Snyder's tenure,the N.I.T.,not the NCAA was THE post season basketball tournament.

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 7:35:29 AM 
giacomo wrote:
Snyder doesnít make the NCAA until year 12 of his tenure. What does that tell you? He was considered a professor and was paid like one. No one got all riled up that we didnít get what we paid for.


I'm going to pretend that I just didn't read a Saul-Snyder comparison and quietly move on. #2-1/2Months



#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT
#1-1/2MonthsMACTournamentChampionshipOrBust #ForSaulBall

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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 9:17:21 AM 
Let's not forget that money has become an important role in expectations.
I believe that Saul is our highest paid MBB coach. We have an expectation of better results. Period!
His performance is worse than the previous 5 coaches. That's all you need to know! Period!
I think the only thing that could save his job is that we win 20 games and we get to the MACC finals.




GO BOBCATS

Last Edited: 1/4/2019 9:18:37 AM by 71 BOBCAT

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 9:59:52 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
GraffZ06 wrote:
I've been saying it for awhile now with regards to Saul - he is Billy Hahn.

Great guy. Likeable guy. Players like him. Questions about accountability/discipline at times. Had some great individual players. Never had much actual on-court success at OU (or at least it's been mediocre at best). Their winning percentages are quite similar.


I get why so many people are willing to go to bat for him. He's a wonderful guy from what I can tell in meeting him a few times. His players all seem like good people and they have done all the right things off court as far as I can tell. His family seems incredible. He's an asset to the community...

Except he doesn't win basketball games. Like it or not, that's the biggest way a coach gets evaluated at this level. I wish it worked out because he's easy to root for. I wish it worked out so we weren't working on a fifth straight disappointing season. I wish it worked out so we didn't have so many unanswered questions even before the season is over.

It hasn't worked, and nothing short of a miracle will keep us from a coaching search in a couple of months.


Since a year or so ago, you and I have mostly disagreed on this topic. But now, your summary here pretty well covers it. I don't see a way that a 6th and 7th year happens realistically. I want it to from the human being side of it. From the first year, I think the Phillips family has been a perfect fit for Ohio, and Athens. Other than a few potential "if this happens" scenarios, I don't see additional years happening on the basketball side of things, and it probably shouldn't.

To be honest, at this point in the conversation, the thing I'm most frustrated about is that the AD and the University have allowed this season in limbo to occur. If you're serious about your programs, you don't play this game with an out of contract coach at the end of this season. I know, I know, there's all the conversations about "Ohio doesn't have the money", etc., which reportedly isn't wrong. It is worth thinking about, for those who have very lofty expectations of this program, that, if Ohio wasn't willing to essentially buy out the last year of Saul's contract, or extend it for two years and take the risk of eating the last year, should we continue to have lofty expectations if seemingly, the AD and university don't also? I'm not saying we should, or should not, but it's food for thought.

At this point, I'm all in on cheering them on to the end of the year to have the best year they can, hoping like hell they get to Thurs/Fri/Sat in Cleveland, knowing full well it's highly likely that next year the whole thing gets blown up and we're starting over for what could be another 'wilderness campaign'.



Twitter: @ou_country

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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 10:03:16 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
Cleveburg Bri wrote:
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)



To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.


Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 10:11:36 AM 
/\ Fair point /\

But, a point that comes with a "what happens this year"?



Twitter: @ou_country

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 10:27:02 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:


It tells me they did NOT take 64 teams, infact, when Coach Snyder began coaching only 8 teams even made the tournament. The first year he made the tournament was 59-60, and a whopping 25 teams made the tournament with 3 teams getting a bye. When he retired a whopping 32 teams were in the tournament. So letís please make decent comparisons!



If you're talking about "decent comparisons",for a significant portion of Coach Snyder's tenure,the N.I.T.,not the NCAA was THE post season basketball tournament.



Well then, Coach Snyder was a failure only reaching the NIT one time, and that is when it was clearly 2nd fiddle to the NCAA tournament. And Iím not sure when you believe the NCAA became relevant, but you may want to evaluate your definition of ďsignificant portionĒ.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/4/2019 10:52:35 AM 
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Cleveburg Bri wrote:
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)



To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.


Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin


If Saul were responsible for a Sweet 16 banner hanging in the Convo and a win over Georgetown in another NCAA Tourney...I would care less what his MAC record is as well.

Last Edited: 1/4/2019 10:56:03 AM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT
#1-1/2MonthsMACTournamentChampionshipOrBust #ForSaulBall

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