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Topic:  RE: Coach Phillips' future

Topic:  RE: Coach Phillips' future
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 1:44:01 PM 
I think we owed it to Saul and ourselves to see if there would be a significant change with the return of Carter. Looks like nothing much has changed, therefore we need to move on.

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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 2:01:29 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.

Do I think Ohio can restore themselves to what UB is now? Sure. Is the right guy in place? Absolutely not.

But the reason UB is there is because they built off what Bobby Hurley built (John Groce) and have continued to build with the next guy up, Nate Oates (Jim Christian).

Ohio missed that chance when Christian took a job back home for a ton of money.

That started the turbulence. Saul was unable to calm the airways and things have only gotten worse.

If Nate Oates departs ... chances are UB is going to slip back closer to the pack in the MAC.

I used SIU as an example earlier .... and it's obviously on the optimistic side. But they went Bruce Weber, Matt Painter (1 year) to Chris Lowery. All three won big there but things started to go south on Lowery and SIU's program has never been able to rebound.

It's tough at the mid-major level when you have a revolving door at coach. Buffalo is enjoying the kind of run many of us were expecting with Groce/Christian ... but we got shortchanged.

It's back to the drawing board. But I think hiring someone that is only planning on being here for 2-3 years is going to leave us right back here again in a few years. There has to be some sustainability if Ohio is going to become a real player in the mid-major world. A program like Ohio can only sustain so much turnover before you reach a breaking point.

If you look at some of the consistently strong mid-major programs over the years that have had sustained (realistic) success they've had coaches who came in and built something more than a flash in the pan.

Wichita, Butler and Gonzaga is not what Ohio should aspire to be. It's not realistic. They don't have the money to do that.

St. Mary's is obviously a step above ... but what Randy Bennett has done there is impressive. 19th year ... 6 NCAA appearances ... 3 wins. Not bad.

Ben Jacobson at Northern Iowa has been good. 13th year ... 4 NCAA appearances and 2 MVC regular season titles. They've also had a few years where they've been around 18-13. And they have four NCAA tourney wins and a Sweet 16 berth to remember.

Tommy Amaker at Harvard ... 12th year ... 4 NCAA tourneys ... 6 Ivy Titles. 2 NCAA wins.

Tim Cluess at Iona ... 9th year ... 5 NCAA tourneys ... 3 MAAC regular season titles

Bob McKillop at Davidson ... 30th year ... 9 NCAA tourneys ... 1 Elite Eight run ... 10+ regular season titles

Phil Martelli at St Joes ... 24th year ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... 7 NCAA wins ... 1 Elite Eight ... 4 regular season titles

Rick Byrd at Belmont ... 23rd year in D1 ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... around 10 regular season titles.

I know schools like St. Joe's, Davidson, St. Mary's all have a bigger budget than Ohio.

And I'm not suggesting Ohio can immediately jump to this level. I'm just using these schools to support my opinion that Ohio should go the route of hiring someone that is committed to building something that is more than a 2-3 year House of Cards.

All these schools have experienced some tough years ... some sub-.500 years ... but they've also bounced back to experience more high level success.

I don't think it's unrealistic for Ohio to find someone that can come into Athens and really build a program that wins a few regular season titles and makes the NCAA tournament more than once a decade. We found a football coach who was willing to hang around for 14+ years. You don't think we can do the same and find a basketball coach willing to do something similar?

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 2:02:45 PM by bshot44

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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 2:04:44 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
71 BOBCAT wrote:
I think Schaus was swayed by Saul's success, young age, and all the buzz around him. This led to his large contract, especially thinking that JC had a buyout clause which also helped justify the salary.
Unfortunately things didn't work out.

Has Solich's success demonstrated another path to consider?

GO BOBCATS


Yep, he's demonstrated a path to consistently being decent and completely irrelevant at a national level.

The Potato Bowl is the equivalent of the CBI. Solich hasn't won any conference championships, which is what's required to get to the tournament in basketball. Not sure he's necessarily the standard we want to follow.

To be clear, he built a strong football program at a school that was consistently a bottom feeder and had won like 60 games in 30 years. Solich has brought huge value to Ohio University and will leave it better than he found it.

But our basketball program's much different than our football program and requires a different approach.


Facts. All of them.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 2:35:24 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.



In fairness to Saul, we had 3 head coaches in 4 years. Any organization that undergoes such a drastic overhaul and loses that much organizational knowledge and continuity is bound to struggle.

And Buffalo didn't lose that continuity, because they promoted from within. That helped with recruiting, organizational knowledge, etc. We cleaned house and started from scratch 3 times a in a 4 year period in a sport where the average recruiting cycle lasts 2 years.

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 3:14:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 2:51:14 PM 
MedinaCat wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
Ted Thompson wrote:
John Brannen


This guy would be a huge get for Ohio if they could swing it and convince him to come. I just doubt that he would. He also might become a flash of success and he's gone type of guy if he did.



Another one that I've love to land, but not certain we could attract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Fife



I missed this earlier, but I agree here as well. I have no idea if we could, or could not attract him. For Brannen, it would be a tough move because it's almost a lateral move really.



Twitter: @ou_country

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ohiocatfan1
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 3:23:20 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.



In fairness to Saul, we had 3 head coaches in 4 years. Any organization that undergoes such a drastic overhaul and loses that much organizational knowledge and continuity is bound to struggle.

And Buffalo didn't lose that continuity, because they promoted from within. That helped with recruiting, organizational knowledge, etc. We cleaned house and started from scratch 3 times a in a 4 year period in a sport where the average recruiting cycle lasts 2 years.


Coach Phillips knew all of this when he took the job. I really wish things would have worked but to this point they haven't. Over 2.5 million dollars later and we're in much worse shape than we were 6 years ago. Again, I think the only thing that saves his job is winning the MAC tournament.

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 3:25:11 PM by ohiocatfan1

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bshot44
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 3:31:30 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.



In fairness to Saul, we had 3 head coaches in 4 years. Any organization that undergoes such a drastic overhaul and loses that much organizational knowledge and continuity is bound to struggle.

And Buffalo didn't lose that continuity, because they promoted from within. That helped with recruiting, organizational knowledge, etc. We cleaned house and started from scratch 3 times a in a 4 year period in a sport where the average recruiting cycle lasts 2 years.


Agree ... it's damn tough to overcome the three coaches in four years thing.

That's why I'm pushing towards hiring someone that won't already be looking for their next job. It would be almost like repeating the cycle and we'd be right back here again in a few years.

I'd rather find someone that is more willing to commit to building something in Athens. I'm not saying that will be easy to find, but I'd rather go that route than find a short-term fix.

ohiocatfan1 wrote:
... I think the only thing that saves his job is winning the MAC tournament.


Nothing will save his job. He's done. It's unfortunate, but there's no way he's coming back.
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ohiocatfan1
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 3:42:02 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.



In fairness to Saul, we had 3 head coaches in 4 years. Any organization that undergoes such a drastic overhaul and loses that much organizational knowledge and continuity is bound to struggle.

And Buffalo didn't lose that continuity, because they promoted from within. That helped with recruiting, organizational knowledge, etc. We cleaned house and started from scratch 3 times a in a 4 year period in a sport where the average recruiting cycle lasts 2 years.


Agree ... it's damn tough to overcome the three coaches in four years thing.

That's why I'm pushing towards hiring someone that won't already be looking for their next job. It would be almost like repeating the cycle and we'd be right back here again in a few years.

I'd rather find someone that is more willing to commit to building something in Athens. I'm not saying that will be easy to find, but I'd rather go that route than find a short-term fix.

[QUOTE=ohiocatfan1]... I think the only thing that saves his job is winning the MAC tournament.


Nothing will save his job. He's done. It's unfortunate, but there's no way he's coming back. [/QUOT

You're probably right. It's a done deal. I think Coach Phillips was committed long term but it just hasn't worked out. Unfortunately the talent has not been lured to Athens that is needed to compete at a high level.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 4:45:48 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.

Do I think Ohio can restore themselves to what UB is now? Sure. Is the right guy in place? Absolutely not.

But the reason UB is there is because they built off what Bobby Hurley built (John Groce) and have continued to build with the next guy up, Nate Oates (Jim Christian).

Ohio missed that chance when Christian took a job back home for a ton of money.

That started the turbulence. Saul was unable to calm the airways and things have only gotten worse.

If Nate Oates departs ... chances are UB is going to slip back closer to the pack in the MAC.

I used SIU as an example earlier .... and it's obviously on the optimistic side. But they went Bruce Weber, Matt Painter (1 year) to Chris Lowery. All three won big there but things started to go south on Lowery and SIU's program has never been able to rebound.

It's tough at the mid-major level when you have a revolving door at coach. Buffalo is enjoying the kind of run many of us were expecting with Groce/Christian ... but we got shortchanged.

It's back to the drawing board. But I think hiring someone that is only planning on being here for 2-3 years is going to leave us right back here again in a few years. There has to be some sustainability if Ohio is going to become a real player in the mid-major world. A program like Ohio can only sustain so much turnover before you reach a breaking point.

If you look at some of the consistently strong mid-major programs over the years that have had sustained (realistic) success they've had coaches who came in and built something more than a flash in the pan.

Wichita, Butler and Gonzaga is not what Ohio should aspire to be. It's not realistic. They don't have the money to do that.

St. Mary's is obviously a step above ... but what Randy Bennett has done there is impressive. 19th year ... 6 NCAA appearances ... 3 wins. Not bad.

Ben Jacobson at Northern Iowa has been good. 13th year ... 4 NCAA appearances and 2 MVC regular season titles. They've also had a few years where they've been around 18-13. And they have four NCAA tourney wins and a Sweet 16 berth to remember.

Tommy Amaker at Harvard ... 12th year ... 4 NCAA tourneys ... 6 Ivy Titles. 2 NCAA wins.

Tim Cluess at Iona ... 9th year ... 5 NCAA tourneys ... 3 MAAC regular season titles

Bob McKillop at Davidson ... 30th year ... 9 NCAA tourneys ... 1 Elite Eight run ... 10+ regular season titles

Phil Martelli at St Joes ... 24th year ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... 7 NCAA wins ... 1 Elite Eight ... 4 regular season titles

Rick Byrd at Belmont ... 23rd year in D1 ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... around 10 regular season titles.

I know schools like St. Joe's, Davidson, St. Mary's all have a bigger budget than Ohio.

And I'm not suggesting Ohio can immediately jump to this level. I'm just using these schools to support my opinion that Ohio should go the route of hiring someone that is committed to building something that is more than a 2-3 year House of Cards.

All these schools have experienced some tough years ... some sub-.500 years ... but they've also bounced back to experience more high level success.

I don't think it's unrealistic for Ohio to find someone that can come into Athens and really build a program that wins a few regular season titles and makes the NCAA tournament more than once a decade. We found a football coach who was willing to hang around for 14+ years. You don't think we can do the same and find a basketball coach willing to do something similar?


You've got a lot of thoughts here, which leads me to a lot of questions and comments.

First, I don't think he's truly torpedoed it. I think the expectation was higher than reality, and injuries followed by misses on recruiting and transfers derailed the whole thing. Imagine if you will, that Tony Campbell doesn't miss the second half of the year. Chances are strong this team ends up playing for and winning a MAC title. Imagine Jaaron makes a different decision and stays, while Jason Carter and Ben Vander Plas aren't hurt for a whole season. That changes the whole trajectory of where we are now, and might even change where we are now in terms of recruiting. And it surely changes the narrative of threads like this one.


Second, I don't get the parallel with Groce/Christian, and Hurley/Oats, solely because there wasn't continuity with Ohio and they never missed at beat at UB. While it might have been better than the current year, I don't think Christian would have held the program as high as 2011-2013. He wasn't the recruiter that John was at that time.


You're right about the continuity problem though, and the need to find a long term solution, not an exciting young coach who leaves in 3 years. That, or that guy had better have assistants that are future head coaching material to step in when they leave - in the same way Oats did for Hurley.

I don't pretend to have the answer on the next guy, other than this: he MUST play a brand of basketball that excites, that SE Ohio relates to when they watch area high school teams, and that absolutely hustles and scraps. More than anything, the brand of basketball is the Groce trait that I miss the most. It's also why I continue to love Cronin and UC basketball - the brand of basketball. I'd hazard a guess I'm not the only one.


Re: Amaker, Cluess, etc: The questions I have are some of the same ones you mention as it compares to Ohio:
-Budgets?
-Facilities - particularly practice facilities?
-What keeps the coaches there? How often have their assistants changed?
-What about their academic standards? (Harvard goes without saying)
-What type of players are they recruiting? What is the recruiting budget?
-What is their paycheck?
-What things do they do that isn't happening at Ohio? (besides turning over coaches every 3-5 years.)

Also worthy of note: Harvard, Iona, Davidson, Belmont, Saint Joseph's, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, SIU, Saint Mary's all have one HUGE thing in common: They. Don't. Play. D1 Football. None of them.


Of course I know UB does, so at the moment, they're at the level we should be trying to chase. Who else is a decent comparison that also D1 football and spends a lot on it? There are the comparisons in my book Ohio should be looking to mimic.


I know people don't seem to like the football conversation around here as it relates to basketball in these conversations, but I'm wondering how many D1 schools that aren't P5 are able to sustain success in football and basketball? (or P6 to include the AAC, because they basically are too)

Consider, Indiana is in the B1G, and they've never managed to be good at football for very long. Kentucky, in the just the last couple years got back to winning more than they lose - in the SEC with all the resources they have. Duke, UNC fall into this category as well.

So again, I'd be curious to see how many C-USA, MAC, Mountain West, or Sun Belt schools that manage both? I'm betting the list is very, very small. And I think the D1 vs non-D1 football issue when comparing mid-major basketball programs has some bearing on the situations.

Lots of interesting things are probably about to change around here this spring/summer. I sure hope it's for the better.

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 4:52:46 PM by OU_Country



Twitter: @ou_country

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:03:43 PM 
OU_Country wrote:

Also worthy of note: Harvard, Iona, Davidson, Belmont, Saint Joseph's, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, SIU, Saint Mary's all have one HUGE thing in common: They. Don't. Play. D1 Football. None of them.


Yep, this is the big key. It's not a coincidence at all that the mid-majors who have managed an upward trajectory in terms of status don't play D1 football. I'd add VCU to your list.

There's also other schools (basically all of the old CAA teams that jumped to the A10 -- Richmond, GW) who didn't even have to have sustained success to make the jump. All they did was commit resources and budget. Richmond's really telling. They went a solid 13 years between NCAA tournament wins. They won as a 14 seed in 1998, and got an at-large bid as a 7 seed twelve years later. No tournament wins in that time, just an investment in the program that resulted in an invitation to a better conference.

They also don't play D1 football.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:14:21 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OU_Country wrote:

Also worthy of note: Harvard, Iona, Davidson, Belmont, Saint Joseph's, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, SIU, Saint Mary's all have one HUGE thing in common: They. Don't. Play. D1 Football. None of them.


Yep, this is the big key. It's not a coincidence at all that the mid-majors who have managed an upward trajectory in terms of status don't play D1 football. I'd add VCU to your list.

There's also other schools (basically all of the old CAA teams that jumped to the A10 -- Richmond, GW) who didn't even have to have sustained success to make the jump. All they did was commit resources and budget. Richmond's really telling. They went a solid 13 years between NCAA tournament wins. They won as a 14 seed in 1998, and got an at-large bid as a 7 seed twelve years later. No tournament wins in that time, just an investment in the program that resulted in an invitation to a better conference.

They also don't play D1 football.


While I agree with you on VCU, etc. - I was merely quoting all of the teams that bshott had in his comments.



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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:15:50 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OU_Country wrote:

Also worthy of note: Harvard, Iona, Davidson, Belmont, Saint Joseph's, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, SIU, Saint Mary's all have one HUGE thing in common: They. Don't. Play. D1 Football. None of them.


Yep, this is the big key. It's not a coincidence at all that the mid-majors who have managed an upward trajectory in terms of status don't play D1 football. I'd add VCU to your list.

There's also other schools (basically all of the old CAA teams that jumped to the A10 -- Richmond, GW) who didn't even have to have sustained success to make the jump. All they did was commit resources and budget. Richmond's really telling. They went a solid 13 years between NCAA tournament wins. They won as a 14 seed in 1998, and got an at-large bid as a 7 seed twelve years later. No tournament wins in that time, just an investment in the program that resulted in an invitation to a better conference.

They also don't play D1 football.


While I agree with you on VCU, etc. - I was merely quoting all of the teams that bshott had in his comments.


Oh yeah, I know. I was just supplementing your point with other examples.
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World B. Freeman
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:18:41 PM 
I love the Phillips family. More fans need to come and support them. I say keep him here for another 5 years. I love talking to him and his family. Remember all the injuries we had so far under him. We got 9 new kids under the radar. I believe he can pull it together. Little less turnovers and more free throws. Also brought in Harmon Simmons who helped Michigan in the championship.
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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:29:29 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.


So do these magical March coaches like Groce not try as hard in January? Do they sandbag to set up for March? I honestly do not understand what it even means. Why did we get blown out at Eastern Michigan in February but take UNC to the wire? Because one was led by February Groce and the other was led by March Groce?


IMHO, the answer is simple, and the clear and definitive reason why it is 100% pointless for people to compare the sports of football and basketball: In hoops, for nearly every conference in the country, EVERY TEAM MAKES THEIR CONFERENCE TOURNEY REGARDLESS OF RECORD!

Seemingly every year you have a couple of sub .500 teams making the tourney because they got hot for a couple of weeks in Feb/March. Groce understood that as long as his troops were rolling for those two weeks prior and ten days of the MAC tourney, he stood a punchers chance of winning the MACC and making the NCAA.

In football, literally every game in the conference season is do or die, and one off night can cost you EVERYTHING. So you have the added pressure literally every time you step on the field. Not saying one is better than the other, but they are yin/yang to the other, and hence the coaching mindset is entirely different.


The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC."  Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:31:52 PM 

deleted because of redundancy.

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 5:38:48 PM by OhioCatFan


Got Frank . . . Got Dreams!
Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:37:13 PM 
Once again, and this appears to be a surprising trend, I find myself in essential agreement with bshot44's analysis. Assuming we are in the market for a new coach come march (and I'm still hoping for a March Miracle), I think we do need someone who is not a "flash in the pan." We need a person with some staying power. This doesn't necessarily mean a "Solich-type hire," but it probably means either a more seasoned coach who wants to settle down and get off the carousel, or someone with OHIO ties. It's possible that either Geno Ford or Jeff Boals would fill that role. Geno, perhaps, is a more likely long-term candidate as he knows from experience that the grass is not always greener higher up the basketball food chain. I know there are some here who are dead set against Geno, but his record at Kent State was actually pretty darn good: Overall = 68–37 (.637) Conference = 35–13 (.729). His teams made it to the postseason all three years, including the NIT Quarterfinals his last year there. Admittedly he had no NCAA appearances, but I suspect he's an older and wiser coach now and could go to the next level at OHIO. It's also true that the wheels fell off at Bradley, but I'm not sure that that's indicative of his true coaching ability. I'd give him a mulligan on that stint. The ethical lapse that ended up in him being personally responsible for Kent's buyout money is more troublesome. But, again, I'm all for forgiveness to the penitent, which I assume at this point he is. So, in summary, I'd give Geno a very serious look if I were the AD.


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Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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D.A.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 5:40:02 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OU_Country wrote:

Also worthy of note: Harvard, Iona, Davidson, Belmont, Saint Joseph's, Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, SIU, Saint Mary's all have one HUGE thing in common: They. Don't. Play. D1 Football. None of them.


Yep, this is the big key. It's not a coincidence at all that the mid-majors who have managed an upward trajectory in terms of status don't play D1 football. I'd add VCU to your list.

There's also other schools (basically all of the old CAA teams that jumped to the A10 -- Richmond, GW) who didn't even have to have sustained success to make the jump. All they did was commit resources and budget. Richmond's really telling. They went a solid 13 years between NCAA tournament wins. They won as a 14 seed in 1998, and got an at-large bid as a 7 seed twelve years later. No tournament wins in that time, just an investment in the program that resulted in an invitation to a better conference.

They also don't play D1 football.


While I agree with you on VCU, etc. - I was merely quoting all of the teams that bshott had in his comments.


I hate to have to pull this up year after year, but just because this is coming up eleven months after I last posted this, regarding why OHIO is NEVER going the route of Gonzaga/Butler/Etc: Thread link for those who prefer to read the context: http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

"So at BLSoS's request, here is how a conversation with Jim would likely go regarding why OHIO should remain in FBS football, and why it should never leave the MAC.

I’ll try to make the explanation as linear as possible, as much of the logic ties into a decision tree format, however a number of items are interrelated yet not linear. This is a compilation of various conversations I have had over the last couple of years with Jim and other members of the ICA and Development staff, and I have added data and commentary for illustrative purposes. (apologies in advance for the lack of brevity)

First and foremost, OHIO is NEVER going to leave the MAC, and for the following financial reasons:

-The budget mechanism for OHIO Athletics (principally from Student Fees), and the continued pressure to reduce the volume of that subsidy by students does not permit significant increases in investment in intercollegiate athletics. For each of the last several years, the Office of the President has asked ICA to increase their self-sufficiency by seeking other revenue streams in order to allow the subsidy percentage from student fees to go down, and the subsidy has indeed been reduced in recent years.

-The MAC permits OHIO Athletics to sponsor their NCAA Division I minimum number of sports, which is important if you need to be able to operate as few DI sports as possible, and at the most efficient funding level possible.

-You can’t be a full MAC member (and by extension receive the ESPN subsidy) if you do not participate in FBS football.

-The MAC is largely a bus league, and because of that, MAC athletic budgets are able to operate at a built in discount to other mid major conferences. This is incredibly important when you are attempting to compete with the other mid major conferences. This permits the MAC to have much lower annual budgets than other mid-major peers while still competing at mid major levels in MBB and FBS. After coaching staff and admin salaries PLUS scholarships, the highest budget line item for each program is travel expenses. When you are increasing the number of flights and overnights for athletic teams because you are doubling (or more) the number of flights/overnights, you are creating a huge and presently unbudgeted increase into an already lean P&L. Example: If OHIO, who has the largest budget in the MAC for MBB, was accepted into the A10, its current budget would have to be increased from $3MM just to accommodate the spike in T&E, and those funds (that do not presently exist) have to come from somewhere. I don’t know in which hypothetical conference all of you want to participate, so I’ll leave it to you to determine how much more the travel expense line item increase is going to be to send every women’s and men’s team to schools outside of the MAC radius of Kent/Miami/Akron/BG/etc, and/or have easy weekend double headers like the EMU/CMU/WMU’s, which are easy to double dip during a weekend trip and help control the MAC athletics budgets so significantly as to make it such a great value to most of its members.

-Aside from the recent MAC contract with ESPN providing a significant cash infusion to the program, which is largely based on the MAC offering FBS football, and despite lots of significant effort from IMG and the OHIO Athletics Development staff, Athens remote location (with a very limited corporate/business base) makes it incredibly difficult to find major untapped revenue streams that would support significant increases in ICA budget to “go to the next level” or participate in an arms race in any sport. (see recent examples of inability to sell naming rights to Peden’s field and the Convo’s court) OHIO cannot afford to walk away from the annual subsidy of ESPN dollars when still seeking to find new partners in funding, especially when you major competition is the evil empire, CBJ and the Crew, which are actually located Columbus, the city in which most of the targets for corporate sponsorships reside. Unless you can think of a good way to move Athens closer to a major metro, nothing about this tough uphill battle will change.

-Additionally, the OHIO Bobcat Club, which has realized significant increases at the top membership levels (in members and dollars), has continued to fight to generate “average” level donors, and has struggled to do so since its initial bump of new donors when taking over from the Green and White Club. The difficulty is at the Captain level or lower, under $1,000, where OHIO is one of the poorest performers in the MAC in generating funds via alumni donations, this despite having increased the number of staff significantly to try to change this flat trend. While the program could use a T. Boone Pickens (a la Bob Walter/Perry Sook/Peterson brothers), it doesn’t have a T. Boone Pickens-esque problem, it has a Joe Lunch Pail issue. The most successful mechanism to incent fans to provide an increased charitable donation in recent years has been the required donation added to seats/parking in premium locations, but general membership in OBC that isn’t tied to a guaranteed seating positing continues to be flat year after year. The strategic initiative to attack that continuing problem is the new Building Champions program, which is seeking to double the number of donors from the presently stagnant level of members.

-Evidence of the fact that you don’t have a higher value donor problem is the repeated reliance on high level donors to increase in investment in our major sports WITHOUT relying on student fees to pay for nearly every major investment: what many of you call “the arms race”. Wren, Walter Fieldhouse, Convo upgrades, Sook Center, Strength and Conditioning Center Upgrades, all the “heavy lifting” for these was done by major gifts from major donors. Then consider that it was going to take a similar, donor based program to be the source of the Groce retention fund (that increase in salary was ALL coming from donor gifts), and long story short, you are NEVER going to pay Greg Marshall level salaries without major donors stepping up. And while OHIO donors were willing to get John to $750k, I don’t know that we have any major donors that are willing to pony up $1MM or more a year to stipend a head coach to even half of the Marshall level. Interesting comparison to Wichita, as I did a really quick search on their ICA budget and funding, is that Greg Marshall’s $3MM is not on their annual institutional budget, as it is funded off the books by independent funds. You can see detailed on their 2017 annual ICA staff budget that they have another coach that has $127k in funding coming from independent funds as well, and doesn’t hit the University/ICA budget. You can also prove this out in the USA Today 2015-2016 budget numbers, where Wichita’s total revenues are $28MM while their budget is $25MM that still requires a student subsidy, the $3MM salary fund being the private donations fill the gap between the two. (might not hurt that your basketball arena is named KOCH Arena…yes, that Koch…and to be located in a metro area with a combined total population of 650k, to work a trick like that)

So…despite these inconvenient truths, you still want to cut Football to reallocate those funds so you can increase your budget to a level even higher than your MAC peers and participate in a conference other than the MAC…

…But your problem is now Title IX! You can’t just drop from FBS’ 85 men’s scholarships to FCS’ 65…or for that matter no football at all…without REPLACING all those scholarships by adding men’s sports to retain the title nine balance. Again, you have to recall from above that in the MAC, OHIO is already participating at the minimum number of DI sports, and you cannot eliminate women’s sports/scholarships to even out the men’s scholarship reduction and remain DI. You already provide a full complement of MBB scholarships, so what are you going to do, bring back men’s track or tennis? Add lacrosse? If you do that, then you have to hire coaches and admin staff, and fund equipment and facilities to support the sport/s that don’t presently exist. And you could add scholarships to men’s sports that are not currently providing full scholly’s to all participants (Golf/Baseball/Wrestling/Cross Country), but would having most or all members of the other men’s sports we presently sponsor provide you the same return on investment and the promotional/television visibility that FBS football in the MAC does? Uh…no.

A great example for comparison’s sake is, again, Wichita, who has an estimated annual budget of $25MM without football (3/15/17 article from Kansas.com, when at the time they were in the MVC, and only 25% of that funding comes from student fees) They sponsor two fewer D1 sports than OHIO while moving up to the American for ’17-18, have the only one off agreement for hoops of being permitted to be a full member without FBS football, and their $3MM MBB head coach salary is 100% off of their annual budget books. That is the dream scenario, correct?

NOW, in exchange for American membership, you get to DRIVE all of your teams to just Cincinnati, but FLY them for every conference game for every sport to: Memphis, Houston, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, UCF, USF, UCONN, Temple and East Carolina. What do you suppose that has done to their 2017-8 budget for the American versus the MVC? Follow that with needing to find the necessary $2.5MM entrance fee to the conference. (which for Wichita can likely offset in American tourney credits, and while they forfeited all 16 of the tourney credits they still have outstanding in the MVC, they will likely be able to replace all those in short order)

In what alternate reality can someone foresee the OHIO Board of Trustees permitting spending $3MM on a MBB head coaches salary, let alone increasing the annual operating budget of MBB to $7MM/year from the current level (a 300% increase), on the backs of donors and students, to be able to compete on a Wichita level in just MBB?

So ultimately, why would you deconstruct football and walk away from $700k/yr from ESPN to find a conference that will pay you far less for broadcast fees (because the American would be your only trade up for fees, and that invite is NEVER coming), voluntarily choose to reconstruct your entire ICA department in order to remain Title IX compliant, having to add new sports/coaches/staff when you already are in a conference that permits you to sponsor a bare minimum number of sports, allows you to spend a bare bones minimum in budget and permits you to be at the top level in all major sports? There is no logical reason to voluntarily do this.

This should illustrate why the topic of dropping or downsizing football is far more complex than just dropping sport X and throwing a bunch of money at MBB. And while many of here HATE the MAC because it is “keeping hoops down” as it is only a “one bid league”, and HATE football, because they perceive it as stealing funds from hoops, when you look at the present state holistically, MAC basketball and football and the ESPN contract is THE BEST thing for OHIO ICA, and is precisely what is permitting OHIO to increase the investment in MBB to the level it has in recent years.

Additionally, the OTHER best thing that ever happened to the MBB program in recent history was Groce’s success. With that came an aspiration (from OHIO and the remainder of the MAC members) to remain at that level, and brought the many increases to the hoops budget for things like: increased salaries and staff, travel via charter for some trips instead of always flying commercial, upgrades to facilities, etc. These are similar benefits that our mid major peers enjoyed before we started competing in the mid major hoops arms race. Like it or not, if you believe there is such a thing as an arms race in ICA, then you need to embrace the fact that it exists BOTH in MBB and FB, and we are participating in both. So suck it up, buttercups, MBB is in far better shape than it would have been without the present set of circumstances and Groce’s 2010-12 success, not worse.

Understanding in greater detail the difficulties in dealing with budget limitations while trying to remain competitive in D1 sports has actually led me to appreciating the MAC more, not less, and I hope we never leave it, as it allows us to retain the proper balance between the academic mission while still using ICA as the front porch to the university.

And…if you aren’t a member of the OBC on some level and you find yourself complaining about our level of spending to support MBB or questioning our commitment to success in MBB, you are actually part of the problem, and can easily participate in being part of the solution with your donation to the OBC."


The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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brucecuth
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 6:02:46 PM 
bshot44 wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
There was a time when there seemed to be aspirations around here of getting to the next level of mid-major basketball, effectively being what UB is now. If we can't afford to fire a coach in a scenario like this, seems to me those kinds of expectations, or even getting to one tournament every 5 years (talked about by a few here), is just ridiculous to expect.


Yeah ... those expectations probably peaked in 2013 right after the Sweet 16 run. I thought Christian would be able to sustain that success and continue to build off it. We'll never know.

But Saul has come in and not only derailed that path ... he's torpedo'd it to the point that we can no longer even recognize it. Ohio basketball is light years worse off now than it was 7 years ago.

Do I think Ohio can restore themselves to what UB is now? Sure. Is the right guy in place? Absolutely not.

But the reason UB is there is because they built off what Bobby Hurley built (John Groce) and have continued to build with the next guy up, Nate Oates (Jim Christian).

Ohio missed that chance when Christian took a job back home for a ton of money.

That started the turbulence. Saul was unable to calm the airways and things have only gotten worse.

If Nate Oates departs ... chances are UB is going to slip back closer to the pack in the MAC.

I used SIU as an example earlier .... and it's obviously on the optimistic side. But they went Bruce Weber, Matt Painter (1 year) to Chris Lowery. All three won big there but things started to go south on Lowery and SIU's program has never been able to rebound.

It's tough at the mid-major level when you have a revolving door at coach. Buffalo is enjoying the kind of run many of us were expecting with Groce/Christian ... but we got shortchanged.

It's back to the drawing board. But I think hiring someone that is only planning on being here for 2-3 years is going to leave us right back here again in a few years. There has to be some sustainability if Ohio is going to become a real player in the mid-major world. A program like Ohio can only sustain so much turnover before you reach a breaking point.

If you look at some of the consistently strong mid-major programs over the years that have had sustained (realistic) success they've had coaches who came in and built something more than a flash in the pan.

Wichita, Butler and Gonzaga is not what Ohio should aspire to be. It's not realistic. They don't have the money to do that.

St. Mary's is obviously a step above ... but what Randy Bennett has done there is impressive. 19th year ... 6 NCAA appearances ... 3 wins. Not bad.

Ben Jacobson at Northern Iowa has been good. 13th year ... 4 NCAA appearances and 2 MVC regular season titles. They've also had a few years where they've been around 18-13. And they have four NCAA tourney wins and a Sweet 16 berth to remember.

Tommy Amaker at Harvard ... 12th year ... 4 NCAA tourneys ... 6 Ivy Titles. 2 NCAA wins.

Tim Cluess at Iona ... 9th year ... 5 NCAA tourneys ... 3 MAAC regular season titles

Bob McKillop at Davidson ... 30th year ... 9 NCAA tourneys ... 1 Elite Eight run ... 10+ regular season titles

Phil Martelli at St Joes ... 24th year ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... 7 NCAA wins ... 1 Elite Eight ... 4 regular season titles

Rick Byrd at Belmont ... 23rd year in D1 ... 7 NCAA tourneys ... around 10 regular season titles.

I know schools like St. Joe's, Davidson, St. Mary's all have a bigger budget than Ohio.

And I'm not suggesting Ohio can immediately jump to this level. I'm just using these schools to support my opinion that Ohio should go the route of hiring someone that is committed to building something that is more than a 2-3 year House of Cards.

All these schools have experienced some tough years ... some sub-.500 years ... but they've also bounced back to experience more high level success.

I don't think it's unrealistic for Ohio to find someone that can come into Athens and really build a program that wins a few regular season titles and makes the NCAA tournament more than once a decade. We found a football coach who was willing to hang around for 14+ years. You don't think we can do the same and find a basketball coach willing to do something similar?


I've read your analysis and one thing keeps popping out: It's certainly easier to build programs at private schools...
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 6:26:27 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
So, in summary, I'd give Geno a very serious look if I were the AD.


Counterpoint: Geno rode Jim Christian's recruits and momentum to success at Kent State. When he actually had to rebuild a program (exactly what's needed here) at Bradley, he failed spectacularly, with a .348 winning percentage in the Valley.

No thanks.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 6:42:38 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
So, in summary, I'd give Geno a very serious look if I were the AD.


Counterpoint: Geno rode Jim Christian's recruits and momentum to success at Kent State. When he actually had to rebuild a program (exactly what's needed here) at Bradley, he failed spectacularly, with a .348 winning percentage in the Valley.

No thanks.


Counter-Counterpoint: Geno actually won post-season games at Kent, something Jim was never able to do.


Got Frank . . . Got Dreams!
Got Saul . . . and dreams of basketball glory!

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 7:34:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
PalmerFest wrote:
Thad Matta


He turned down 15 million over 5 years from Georgia. He is not a realistic target for us.


Throw in a rhinoplasty.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 8:37:04 PM 
Now 0-2 in MAC play and staring at 0-5. Our program is not even on par right now with the likes of Northern Illinois, Miami and Bowling Green. Did you think 5 years ago that this would ever be possible? For those of you who follow the program seriously and don't think the #SaulBall era has been anything but an epic failure, I just don't know what to say anymore. This goes well beyond success in March. We are now a team struggling to get out of the bottom of the MAC. That's what happens when you recruit a handful of guys who should be suiting up for Wisconsin Stevens-Point and Ohleone CC. We quit in the last 23 seconds against Northern Illinois and now lose by 19 points to Bowling Green. This is a complete embarrassment and can't end soon enough.

Last Edited: 1/8/2019 8:42:36 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT
#1-1/2MonthsMACTournamentChampionshipOrBust #ForSaulBall

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 8:49:16 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Now 0-2 in MAC play and staring at 0-5. Our program is not even on par right now with the likes of Northern Illinois, Miami and Bowling Green. Did you think 5 years ago that this would ever be possible? For those of you who follow the program seriously and don't think the #SaulBall era has been anything but an epic failure, I just don't know what to say anymore. This goes well beyond success in March. We are now a team struggling to get out of the bottom of the MAC. That's what happens when you recruit a handful of guys who should be suiting up for Wisconsin Stevens-Point and Ohleone CC. We quit in the last 23 seconds against Northern Illinois and now lose by 19 points to Bowling Green. This is a complete embarrassment and can't end soon enough.


If firing Saul tomorrow gets you to stop posting the exact same thing in two threads, I'll pitch in towards his buyout.
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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 8:50:01 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:

Counter-Counterpoint: Geno actually won post-season games at Kent, something Jim was never able to do.


Are we really comparing Geno's post season at Kent (1 CIT, 2 NITs) to Christian's post season at Kent (3 NCAAs, 2 NITs)?
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Coach Phillips' future
   Posted: 1/8/2019 8:56:59 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
So, in summary, I'd give Geno a very serious look if I were the AD.


Counterpoint: Geno rode Jim Christian's recruits and momentum to success at Kent State. When he actually had to rebuild a program (exactly what's needed here) at Bradley, he failed spectacularly, with a .348 winning percentage in the Valley.

No thanks.


+1. Always loved Geno the player. Hard pass on Geno the coach.



Twitter: @ou_country

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