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Topic:  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount

Topic:  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 8:58:50 PM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. It is early and at 2-2 we are still at .500 but we have a difficult schedule outside of the MAC. I just don't know what SaulBall is supposed to look like. When you're not hitting 3's what offense do you run? I don't know yet because we kept throwing up awful shots. They didn't even look good coming out of their hands or landing. Doug is non-existent on defense and in the post. Preston plays solid defense but cannot score. Block has regressed horribly (I wonder if he is mad at not starting) and Cowart looks like Culver Lite. Carter is working hard and Vander Plas is solid. Why James doesn't play I don't know. He has the nicest looking shot in the team. And Kirk is out of control even more than last year. He will probably transfer at year's end. He just looks lost and doesn't seem to care. Nice to see that with two injuries we have three new guys who can't even sniff the floor and one that plays 2 minutes. Nice recruiting Saul. I am so disappointed and disaffected with this program. I found myself doing work during the game because I couldn't just sit there.


This^^^^^Every single bit of this^^^^ At least the talent Saul has recruited would give Wisconsin-Stevins Point a run for its money in a secret scrimmage.

Last Edited: 11/18/2018 9:09:04 PM by FearLeon


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 9:20:03 PM 
I was not able to watch game due to family commitments, but I was able to sneak a peak at the score every now and then on my iPhone. I was also able to look at the live stats. Carter was the leading scorer at half, but apparently didn't play a whole lot in the second half. Is he injured? Can someone who actually watched the game tell me if there was more energy than against USF? The final stats say we hit only 16.7 percent of our 3s and 33.9 percent overall. That won't win many games. I'm not in the fire Saul camp yet, but I'm drifting in that direction. Let's see how things go in another venue. Maybe there was just something weird about the court or something. Bad sight lines or something? I'm digging for excuses. If this kind of play continues, I'll join FearLeon's campaign. Frank develops players who get better with experience. Are we seeing that on the basketball court? Seems it may be the opposite. Stay tuned . . . this is a developing story.

Last Edited: 11/18/2018 9:21:36 PM by OhioCatFan


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 9:48:16 PM 
Saul said in the post-game interview that this team knows how to shoot in practice and does quite well during that time in terms of hitting shots. In addition to being a horrible recruiter, Saul seems to think that how well this team does in practice seems to equate to how well they will do in game situations. What none of us fans seem to understand is that this Bobcat team is a National Championship practice squad. I guess that we should just go ahead and hang a banner based on that which says: "Best Practice Squad in the Nation." I hope that the local press will start lighting Saul up this year during interviews. After all, somebody, somewhere, needs to put a metaphorical fire under this program.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 10:05:44 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Nothing more to add. Some have already recognized which players have taken two steps back. Player development is just lacking big time. And I have no idea what type of game #4 is running...none at all. He probably leads the nation in turnovers. Team shot 6-50 from three point land in Jamaica and Saul just allowed them to chuck it. McMurray, James and Murrell already appear to be out of the rotation. Let's hear from ya Saul apologists...let's hear from ya. #FutureIsBright


We ARE playing without Dartis and Gollon. Then again you have wanted Saul gone for the past 2 years.

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Campus Flow
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 10:49:33 PM 
I thought we played good defense at times tonight. It was too bad the team couldn't capitalize more in transition taking advantage of turnovers. A few more possessions and they had a chance to win it.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 10:52:47 PM 
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Nothing more to add. Some have already recognized which players have taken two steps back. Player development is just lacking big time. And I have no idea what type of game #4 is running...none at all. He probably leads the nation in turnovers. Team shot 6-50 from three point land in Jamaica and Saul just allowed them to chuck it. McMurray, James and Murrell already appear to be out of the rotation. Let's hear from ya Saul apologists...let's hear from ya. #FutureIsBright


We ARE playing without Dartis and Gollon. Then again you have wanted Saul gone for the past 2 years.



What has Saul done during those 2 years? Why is it out of the realm of possibility that Saul has underachieved during those years? Last year we had injuries but several guys who HE recruited who didn't make it. No depth. We never have depth.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/18/2018 11:42:32 PM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
What has Saul done during those 2 years? Why is it out of the realm of possibility that Saul has underachieved during those years? Last year we had injuries but several guys who HE recruited who didn't make it. No depth. We never have depth.


Can't discount the injuries...but, good coaches find a way to make it happen regardless of circumstances.

Saul's a nice guy with a great family. I feel bad knowing that his job is on the line this year. But, ultimately, the results just haven't been there.

IMO, recruiting has been the biggest issue with Saul at the helm. Relative to other MAC and mid-major programs, we just don't have the horses. I think Saul's style would work great at a D2 or D3 program where the focus is more on player growth/development as opposed to the "rat race" of big time recruiting.
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Jerry86
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 12:03:02 AM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Nothing more to add. Some have already recognized which players have taken two steps back. Player development is just lacking big time. And I have no idea what type of game #4 is running...none at all. He probably leads the nation in turnovers. Team shot 6-50 from three point land in Jamaica and Saul just allowed them to chuck it. McMurray, James and Murrell already appear to be out of the rotation. Let's hear from ya Saul apologists...let's hear from ya. #FutureIsBright


We ARE playing without Dartis and Gollon. Then again you have wanted Saul gone for the past 2 years.



What has Saul done during those 2 years? Why is it out of the realm of possibility that Saul has underachieved during those years? Last year we had injuries but several guys who HE recruited who didn't make it. No depth. We never have depth.



LoL .. i can go back to Groce, Hunter, Bandy, even Jim Snyder who recruited guys who didn't make it. So losing Carter was a non-issue? I could go on about others but will quit.
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Obc2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 12:04:52 AM 
heres my two cents.

i dont see anyone in the backcourt who can handle the rock very well much less break someone down off the dribble.

inside fellas were greatly outsized by opponents in Jamaica.

its possible the outside shooting woes might be an aberration and due to small sample. but...i dont see any sharpshooters yet.
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catfan28
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 12:19:04 AM 
Obc2 wrote:
heres my two cents.

i dont see anyone in the backcourt who can handle the rock very well much less break someone down off the dribble.

inside fellas were greatly outsized by opponents in Jamaica.

its possible the outside shooting woes might be an aberration and due to small sample. but...i dont see any sharpshooters yet.


Agreed. Think about the talent of the Sweet 16/DJ Cooper era and compare that to our current squad.

Coop and Co. would win by what, 20? 25? It would be men against boys.
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oubobcatjohn
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 3:54:33 AM 
This is what we got. Kirk and Carter both sophomores. Vander Plas and Preston freshmen. Add in a transfer in Cowart still adjusting to the team. Too early to throw in the towel on this team. This team will be better in February and March. They will be a lot better if Dartis and Gollon are 100% healthy. Its going to be rough in the non-conference schedule we expected that. Lets see where we are in February once they get adjusted to the return of Dartis and Gollon to the lineup.
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Townie1977
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 7:23:48 AM 
Jerry86 wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Nothing more to add. Some have already recognized which players have taken two steps back. Player development is just lacking big time. And I have no idea what type of game #4 is running...none at all. He probably leads the nation in turnovers. Team shot 6-50 from three point land in Jamaica and Saul just allowed them to chuck it. McMurray, James and Murrell already appear to be out of the rotation. Let's hear from ya Saul apologists...let's hear from ya. #FutureIsBright


We ARE playing without Dartis and Gollon. Then again you have wanted Saul gone for the past 2 years.



What has Saul done during those 2 years? Why is it out of the realm of possibility that Saul has underachieved during those years? Last year we had injuries but several guys who HE recruited who didn't make it. No depth. We never have depth.



LoL .. i can go back to Groce, Hunter, Bandy, even Jim Snyder who recruited guys who didn't make it. So losing Carter was a non-issue? I could go on about others but will quit.



Way too many excuses from you Saul...oops..I mean Jerry86. Pretty sure its within the job requirements of one of the top two paid employees at our fine institution to deduce ways to deal with injuries and adversity. The talent depth on this team is substandard. The player development is substandard. The competitive edge is substandard. The witty post game comments and stupid facial expressions are overtly obnoxious. I have no understanding as to why or how anyone can be satisfied with the lower tier of mediocrity over a sustained period of time. Apologists unite!

Last Edited: 11/19/2018 7:31:46 AM by Townie1977

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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 8:02:13 AM 
Some would call a 4 year run of MAC play barely above .500 (sub .500 through three years) mediocre. Others call it John Groce The Almighty.

Take a deep breath, relax, and let's see what happens in MAC play. Which is all that matters in the grand scheme of things. Back away from the ledge.
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 8:27:04 AM 
Jerry86 wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:
Jerry86 wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
Nothing more to add. Some have already recognized which players have taken two steps back. Player development is just lacking big time. And I have no idea what type of game #4 is running...none at all. He probably leads the nation in turnovers. Team shot 6-50 from three point land in Jamaica and Saul just allowed them to chuck it. McMurray, James and Murrell already appear to be out of the rotation. Let's hear from ya Saul apologists...let's hear from ya. #FutureIsBright


We ARE playing without Dartis and Gollon. Then again you have wanted Saul gone for the past 2 years.



What has Saul done during those 2 years? Why is it out of the realm of possibility that Saul has underachieved during those years? Last year we had injuries but several guys who HE recruited who didn't make it. No depth. We never have depth.



LoL .. i can go back to Groce, Hunter, Bandy, even Jim Snyder who recruited guys who didn't make it. So losing Carter was a non-issue? I could go on about others but will quit.


Losing guys like Carter is huge but the fact that we have 4 guys sitting on the bench who saw NO time yesterday was disheartening. It means that we are bringing in projects instead of instant impact guys.
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Diamond Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 8:44:59 AM 
100%Cat wrote:
Some would call a 4 year run of MAC play barely above .500 (sub .500 through three years) mediocre. Others call it John Groce The Almighty.

Take a deep breath, relax, and let's see what happens in MAC play. Which is all that matters in the grand scheme of things. Back away from the ledge.


I'm trying to go with that mindset 100%Cat. However, I have not seen this lack of interest/excitement in the hoops program since Hahn's final year. I actually feel similar for football.

The Convo has become an empty relic and the students don't care. RIP Ozone. The halftime entertainment for the next home game should be a mock funeral for the student section.

I stopped watching the hoops game last night. Wow! That is all that comes to mind.

While Frank has clearly done great things, the assistant coaches continue to choke in games that pivot the season. The UC and Miami losses define this season. I do appreciate the players not quitting and showing something by crushing Buffalo.

Is it baseball season yet? New turf looks awesome!

Last Edited: 11/19/2018 8:46:53 AM by Diamond Cat

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 9:06:22 AM 
100%Cat wrote:
Some would call a 4 year run of MAC play barely above .500 (sub .500 through three years) mediocre. Others call it John Groce The Almighty.

Take a deep breath, relax, and let's see what happens in MAC play. Which is all that matters in the grand scheme of things. Back away from the ledge.


Saul is 2-4 in the MAC Tournament and very well below .500 in conference play.

Groce was 9-2 in the MAC Tournament with a pair of championships.

So yeah, they basically are the same.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 9:29:37 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
Some would call a 4 year run of MAC play barely above .500 (sub .500 through three years) mediocre. Others call it John Groce The Almighty.

Take a deep breath, relax, and let's see what happens in MAC play. Which is all that matters in the grand scheme of things. Back away from the ledge.


Saul is 2-4 in the MAC Tournament and very well below .500 in conference play.

Groce was 9-2 in the MAC Tournament with a pair of championships.

So yeah, they basically are the same.


And he's replicated that success everywhere he has been so it couldn't have been a fluke...
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 9:41:23 AM 
Bobcat1998 wrote:

Losing guys like Carter is huge but the fact that we have 4 guys sitting on the bench who saw NO time yesterday was disheartening. It means that we are bringing in projects instead of instant impact guys.


Do you know who else had 4 guys sitting on the bench who saw NO time yesterday? Pretty much every other team that played unless the game was a blowout.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 9:57:03 AM 
100%Cat wrote:


And he's replicated that success everywhere he has been so it couldn't have been a fluke...


I honestly don't care about John Groce. I especially don't care about what he's done since leaving here. I do care that we're in year five of a regime that's produced crap results. There's no joy in the the Convo anymore. There's no reason to be particularly hopeful about this season unless you're utterly deluded. The majority of the conference has passed this program by. I don't know why so many people on here are bending over backwards to make it seem OK.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 10:03:41 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Is Block playing hurt? Sure looks like he's struggling getting up and down the court.


Agreed - Whatever it is, he doesn't look like the same guy who essentially willed Ohio to a 'W' in Charleston last year at this time. Something is amiss with him.
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Ohio69
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 10:14:56 AM 
oubobcatjohn wrote:
This is what we got. Kirk and Carter both sophomores. Vander Plas and Preston freshmen. Add in a transfer in Cowart still adjusting to the team. Too early to throw in the towel on this team. This team will be better in February and March. They will be a lot better if Dartis and Gollon are 100% healthy. Its going to be rough in the non-conference schedule we expected that. Lets see where we are in February once they get adjusted to the return of Dartis and Gollon to the lineup.


Agreed. Very obvious that Dartis and Gollon are the missing pieces. Confident wings who can hit threes and penetrate. I sure hope we see Dartis in an Ohio uniform again. (I am filled with doubt.) When Gollon comes back I hope its the late last-season version. We need them both.


Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 10:23:32 AM 
OUVan wrote:
Bobcat1998 wrote:

Losing guys like Carter is huge but the fact that we have 4 guys sitting on the bench who saw NO time yesterday was disheartening. It means that we are bringing in projects instead of instant impact guys.


Do you know who else had 4 guys sitting on the bench who saw NO time yesterday? Pretty much every other team that played unless the game was a blowout.


I'm with you there - in a way. I'm with you in that most teams have 2-3 guys who ride the pine most of the year. I like McMurray, and think most of his lack of PT is simply because of who is ahead of him. Murrell is puzzling to me, as I expected a little more. I had no expectation that James or Springs would get much PT this year though. I'm with you in that "instant impact guys" don't grow on trees, and it would make sense to reflect back on previous coaching staffs to consider whether or not this is all that different. I don't know if it is, or isn't.



While the lack of Dartis and Gollon plays a factor, there's no good reason to lose that one to Loyola. None. They couldn't throw the ball in the ocean, and didn't seem to adapt enough. That was a troubling thing for me as a I watched.

Another troubling thing for me, and it has been for the last 3-4 years, is that there isn't a second defensive look to switch things up. Or if there is, it's not used nearly enough. At the end of the game, with 3 minutes to go, they cranked up the pressure and got results. Why not do that once in awhile throughout the game to change the tempo? I don't care if it's pressure trapping, a zone, or whatever, but a way to change looks defensively is, and has been, needed.

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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 10:27:22 AM 
OCF - To answer your question on Carter's 2nd half minutes, Carter was in foul trouble and ultimately fouled out. Aside from not hitting any of his 4 three point attempts, he was awesome once again and at least 2 of the fouls seemed like tough calls in my opinion.

Sometimes we over-complicate things...Basketball is first and foremost about shooting. I still see a lot to like in terms of hustle, execution, ball movement, spacing...but not much of it matters if you can't hit your shots. Obviously missing our 2 best outside shooters to injury is part of this. But I'd also add that if you had to pick the #1 thing holding back each of our players from being a P5 player, the answer for most of them is shooting. I think we have a lot of smart players, some good athletes, well sized...and below average outside shooting.

This was on display in Jamaica big time. I saw some encouraging things, especially against LM. But 6 for 49 behind the arc...and I would guess not much better of a rate from within a few feet inside the arc. That won't work. We obviously won't finish the season with 12% 3 pt shooting, but it is going to be a problem. And it isn't as simple as just feeding the paint, because we all know the outside shot opens up the paint.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 10:45:24 AM 
Thanks, Andrew, for the info. I'm glad that it was foul trouble and not another injury.

If I could summarize this team, so far. It's kind of like a "collective Bean." What I meant by that is that back when we had Bean, I used to tell people this team lived by the Bean and died by the Bean, meaning that if Bean was hot from three-land we'd win, if he wasn't we'd lose. This team seems to have a collective Bean mentality: Keep jacking 'em up whether your hot or not, hoping you'll eventually get hot. No change in the game strategy when the threes aren't dropping. Some games "Beaning it" works, some games it doesn't. An oversimplification for sure, but I think there's a grain of truth here.


The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 4 Thread: Loyola Marymount
   Posted: 11/19/2018 12:46:29 PM 
Let me first start off by saying that I'm just as upset about how the team played in Jamaica. There is no getting around that.

But there is something to keep in mind here: this team is playing with only 3 guys who got regular minutes last year... Doug, TK and Block. That's it. With Jordy and Gollon out it takes a huge hit to this team's chemistry. JC and BVP are gonna be great, but practicing and game competition are two completely different things.

My fear is by the time the team gels to what we all hope for, its going to be too late. Win the MAC, but improve along the way.
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