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Topic: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Topic: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

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bornacatfan
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OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 10:32:38 AM

Listening to a story from a local about calling her school board member to complain about the schism in the GWOC I marvelled when the school board member said she knew nothing about the split. http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/split-decision-thin... / as in Indiana we have school board members seeking election and then meddling in coaching firings based on their kids playing time. It was refreshing to hear that the local GWOC board member had no idea of the withdrawl and MAY be letting the AD and Administrators do their jobs.

From a recruiting and observation standpoint I was interested in how schools align and what was behind the schism as evaluating players vs other players is an interesting part of attending certain games.. . I delved into it and found it quite interesting and compelling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OHSAA_Southwest_Region_athl...

The old WOL and SWBL have radically changed in the almost 60 years since my Pops coached at Wayne HS in a very young Huber Heights. The realignments are fascinating and BAers like Joe McK from Stebbins along with a certain person that eludes NN detection may have some input to the conversation. The mega conferences in Ohio that have emerged in all the cities and by extension into the smaller school perplex me as I do not understand the benefits vs the old 8-10 team alliances. Fascinating, thought provoking reading and analysis. The mega conferences in Cincy and Columbus and the Southwest Ohio amalgamation of Catholic schools I also found compelling. Compared to Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren and Pike in IN that have 5000 students I thought the school enrollments in Ohio were interesting that they count boys/girls and the "big" schools are not really that big by standards over here. Muncie Central at 900 students is in the same class as 90 school with larger enrollments and 40 with 2-5 times their numbers.

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Alan Swank
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 11:08:36 AM

When I was managing our yearbook reps in Indiana and visiting schools daily, two things jumped out at me - the number of schools with more than 2000 students (currently 30 with only 15 in Ohio) and the size of high school gyms as compared to Ohio's gyms. The old Martinsville gym was the most amazing. When built in 23 - 24 it held 5200 people which was more than the entire town's population of 4800.

Anyway back to the original post. From my experience in the eastern half of the state is that conference realignment has been driven by the desire to be competitive in football and boys basketball. Travel is/was sometimes used as an excuse but schools want to compete in the big two sports.

The Optimist
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 11:35:50 AM

Cleveland/Akron/Canton area had a pretty massive realignment a couple years ago.

As Alan said, football really drives it as well as boy's basketball to a lesser extent. Travel for other sports definitely brought up, but doesn't seem to really do much.

I've seen crazier things happen.

bornacatfan
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 12:09:17 PM

I noted in the WIki that there was a conference made up of what was left of Dayton Public League schools and Cincy Publics but the I75 traffic caused them to abandon the idea.

Campus Flow
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 12:41:16 PM

At the top level there has been consolidation to form power conferences. In NW there was the Toledo City league which had played for 90 years but competitive disparaties began to emerge between the affluent catholic schools and the public schools in the 70's. In 2010 the decision was made by the catholic schools that it was time to put together a power conference with the big publics in the area Oregon, Fremont, Findlay, Lima plus the largest public school in the city league Whitmer. 10 school conference and since that time not a deletion or addition to it because its the best possible conference for everyone involved. It reminds me of the ACC with all the private schools in it plus a few big outlier public schools. Lima is the Florida State of the conference as a traditional elite football power. They aren't technically in NW Ohio but because they are on I-75 which is the lifeblood of NW Ohio they can conveniently hop on a bus and be in the Toledo metro within an hour. Findlay is the Louisville of the conference which had played in many leagues over the years as a dominant basketball school with mediocre football. They were in CUSA type conferences until the 90's when they joined the Great Lakes League which was like a Big East with most of the significant NW Ohio D1 & D2 non city league schools in it. Of course with Findlay's arrival to a conference that was always the cue for the weaker D2 schools to exit stage left for fear of Findlay basketball and Olympic sports. The last incarnation of the GLL was the Greater Buckeye League with Findlay, Fremont, Lima, Marion, Napoleon and Sandusky from 2003-2011. Napoleon was a smaller school that always punched above its weight in athletics because of the strong community based area. Sandusky had enrollment declines so they dropped to the mid major Sandusky Bay conference. Marion is in the more regional mid-ohio athletic conference. The city schools of the industrial towns have tended in recent years to move down to mid major leagues to save on travel. The wealthy growing suburban type schools have moved up to be more competitive. Findlay's historical situation is different as it benefited in the new economy as a logistics hub and has tripled in size since WWII. For this reason its more similar to a Columbus suburb and they usually put Dublin or one the other big suburban Columbus schools on the schedule since the 90's to maximize playoff points. The answer is it depends on institutional objectives but there is natural hierarchy that exists. Lima Senior, Findlay and Toledo Whitmer are never going to back down from elite D1 competition. They would play independent (which they did) before that happens.

Three Rivers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Rivers_Athletic_Confe...

Greater Buckeye
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Buckeye_Conference

Last Edited: 2/11/2018 12:42:05 PM by Campus Flow

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Campus Flow
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 12:51:29 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Anyway back to the original post. From my experience in the eastern half of the state is that conference realignment has been driven by the desire to be competitive in football and boys basketball. Travel is/was sometimes used as an excuse but schools want to compete in the big two sports.

Declining industrial town city high schools in decline swallowing their pride and dropping down to regional leagues to compete with the smaller but spirited community based rural districts where every boy tries out for football. There is a lot of that going on in Ohio. Fostoria was once D2 state champs but are now D4 playing in a county league. Once feared they are nothing anymore.

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Joe McKinley
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 3:54:40 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Borna, I don't know much about the GWOC split other than what has appeared in the Dayton Daily News about the plans by the smaller schools to form their own 10 team league sans Trotwood. These are mostly former Greater Miami Valley Conference schools with the exception of Xenia and Stebbins. My alma mater has bounced around in terms of league affiliations since leaving the old WOL decades ago.

Here in central Ohio, I'm a bit more familiar with what is happening. The Ohio Capital Conference member schools had a re-alignment vote scheduled for 2/7, but the meeting was postponed due to weather. The new divisions would take effect with the 2020/21 school year and be in place for four years. OCC by-laws call for re-alignment when school enrollments have a specific differential from top to bottom within a division. The league has made exceptions for geography or specific school/school district wishes.

The stated benefit is competitive balance across sports. And, in some cases an argument has been made about lowering travel/transportation costs. One drawback is the inability to maintain or build rivalries.

I don't think that school board members have any direct involvement here in Dublin, but they do set policies around attendance zones and intra-district student transfers which impact enrollments significantly. Current enrollments have Coffman #3 in the OCC, Jerome at #14 and Scioto at #27. Coffman's OHSAA enrollment for the top three grades for boys/girls is 747/658, Jerome is 617/636 and Scioto is 484/494.

Last Edited: 2/11/2018 4:08:04 PM by Joe McKinley

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 5:14:27 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Slight correction. Whitmer, while located in the city of Toledo, is not a Toledo Public School. It is part of its own separate school district, Washington Local Schools. So now all that remains of the Toledo City League is all of the public schools, which for the most part, are not very competitive in much of anything anymore. My dad played basketball at Woodward in the early 60s. Woodward had some awesome teams back then. I can't imagine it ever being the case again.

Marion Harding is an interesting case. It ended up joining the MOAC after the Greater Buckeye Conference folded. It is by far the biggest school in the MOAC but competitively and geographically, the MOAC is a good fit for the Presidents, which really haven't been able to compete against most Division I schools for a while now. It has a lot of the same struggles as some inner-city schools with low participation.

I went to Clay and played in the former Great Lakes League. My alma mater doesn't seem to compete very well at much in the Three Rivers League, which is a lot of the former GLL plus the Toledo Catholic schools. I'm pretty sure Clay is the smallest school in the league now, with the exception of perhaps Toledo Central Catholic, but obviously it has the advantage of being a private school attracting students from a large area. (For example, former Ohio Bobcat and NFL player Eric Herman lived in the Clay district but went to Central Catholic). I don't know if Clay would ever leave its current league but after a while, schools start to hate losing in a league over and over, especially if they are one of the smaller schools in that conference.

It seems most of the Northwest Ohio conference realignment should be done for the most part. One of the biggest things that happened was the Northern Ohio League, which was one of the longest-lasting leagues in Ohio, dating back to the early 40s, disbanded with most of the teams joining the Sandusky Bay Conference, which has 20-plus teams in three divisions broken down by size. Hopewell-Loudon is leaving the 12-team Blanchard Valley Conferences for the SBC, so that could lead to the BVC perhaps seeking a replacement. The Northern 10 Athletic Conference had Crestline leave the league after just the first season, and so now has only nine teams, but Ridgedale has opted to play independently for football, so I think the N10 is satisfied being an eight-team football league. The odd number of teams isn't as big a deal for other sports.

It certainly is interesting how just one move can create a domino effect.

BillyTheCat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 7:47:31 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Ohio has over 800 high schools, and even with the consolidation movement of the 60�s has maintained (largely) the model of public schools as laid out in the Nortwest Ordinance of 1787.

Diamond Cat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 7:59:02 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

^ I never thought I would see my Z-ville Blue Devils in a league with some of the teams they play in what is now the ECOL. I don't follow the realignment stuff but I heard Z-ville is either looking for a new home or will be w/o a conference.

They have dropped from D1 to D3 in Football (I think).

BillyTheCat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 8:11:11 PM

Diamond Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

And I to II in basketball

Campus Flow
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 8:23:17 PM

Diamond Cat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Its probably the result of the same demographic shifts we see all over the state. Since the 1960's once the interstate system arrived it became a boon to the rural school districts sitting right along the ramp. Businesses moved in or around the interstate exit adding to an increased tax base. This allowed the rural school to build a shiny new HS right outside of city limits. Then housing tracks come in. People in these areas typically upgrade housing when the run into some family money. They decide lets be right on the highway next to the new Wal-Mart and stay out of the city where they have a high local tax. This process has played out to the point that over the past 2 decades enrollment declines of the city districts have been substantial enough to drop them out of D1 and in some cases all the way to D3 or D4. Towns with 25 or 30k now competing in a conference where the towns are 5,000 to 7,500 but they may have greater enrollment than what you'd expect because they pull in from some of the county. Rivalries suffer when you have the main city HS of a small city of 25k (40k probably including the interstate build up areas) competing in league with small towns who are not on the level of the city HS except for a district to district tax base comparison.

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bobcatsquared
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 8:38:25 PM

Diamond Cat wrote:

I never thought I would see my Z-ville Blue Devils in a league with some of the teams they play in what is now the ECOL. I don't follow the realignment stuff but I heard Z-ville is either looking for a new home or will be w/o a conference.

They have dropped from D1 to D3 in Football (I think).

Zanesville and several current OCC schools are considering creating a new league. These include OCC members Newark, Lancaster, Reynoldsburg, Canal Winchester and Groveport. Other schools being considered include Teays Valley, Logan and Mt. Vernon.

A fourth Olentangy high school might force the OCC to realign sooner than they had hoped for.

Campus Flow
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 9:03:57 PM

UpSan Bobcat wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

I hope Clay does not drop. Findlay I know is loving the TRAC. They've always viewed the major Toledo area schools as rivals but could never get into the same league with them. In fact they applied to join the Toledo City League before setting up the TRAC. All those small northern Ohio cities Lima, Fremont, Sandusky, Marion, Mansfield, Lorain at one time have been in a league with Findlay and feel very much like a rival. Fostoria was once in that category but now has declined to the point where its primarily a bedroom community for Findlay's industrial park. A couple of farmstead D7 districts have attempted to siphon Findlay with new housing tracts but the higher end development has stayed in the city limits. Liberty Benton and Van Buren have pushed up to D5 which is now where Fostoria will be next season, an amazing accomplishment for districts that are based out of one stoplight towns.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Joe McKinley
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 9:20:20 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Diamond Cat wrote:

Olentangy Berlin opens this fall and will join the OCC Cardinal which has seven teams right now.

The new OCC alignment to be voted on shortly includes a division with Central Crossing, Groveport, Lancaster, Newark, Pickerington Central and Reynoldsburg.

Last Edited: 2/11/2018 9:20:49 PM by Joe McKinley

bornacatfan
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 9:56:56 PM

Pretty fascinating reading here.

800 schools. When did consolidation take place? IN did it in the late 50s early 60 and mandated in 1959 that a district must have 1000 students or be forced to consolidate. Seems like there are many rural areas in Ohio that still have less than this K-12.

One of the things I see is the proximity of conference foes. In Iowa the conference stretched from Waterloo and Ames to Ft Dodge, while here in IN The North Central stretches from Richmond as you enter the state to Lafayette up I65 on the way to Chicago. Most schools are connected by 2 lane state routes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Central_Conference_(I... ) Terra Haute Schools on the western edge of the state come to Indy and Bloomington as part of the CIC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_Indiana It has always been mysterious to me with almost a hundred friends that are Prexies from Marion that they never got in a conference with Delaware, Marysville or larger schools down the road. To us folks travelling 2 hours over to Lafayette in the winter Marion to Columbus via 4 lane hiway to the suburbs is a no brainer.

The death of industrial towns has reduced most cities like Muncie, Anderson, Kokomo, Terra haute, from 3, close to 2000 student High Schools to 1 school with around 1200 students in most cases while Indy and Suburbs have grown exponentially with multiple schools with 3-5K kids and no desire to split. Looking at the towns that the industry has decimated in OHio is more compelling than the township schools that benefitted from the Interstate system. Interesting to see the schools going up the north side of Columbus with Dublin and Olentangy continuing to split out schools while not growing mega schools.

Missing in all of this was the effect of the computer system in football playoffs that I thought would drive some of the conversation. Trotwood's dominance of the FB in the GWOC is certainly a driving force for some of those leaving.

Last Edited: 2/11/2018 10:04:44 PM by bornacatfan

Alan Swank
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 10:28:46 PM

Consolidation in Athens took place in the late 60s. Athens, The Plains and Chancey became one district. Even with that, we still have 5 school districts in a county of 65,000. 5 superintendents, 5 treasurers, 5 transportation supervisors, etc. Lots of duplication of services. Combine that with the fact that Athens folks pay twice the milage of the other four districts and you have an unfair tax burden.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 10:28:48 PM

It says a lot about the state of our basketball program that high school conference realignments is the most active topic right now. But I guess it beats bickering and speculating.

Speaking from the perspective of the western suburbs of Cleveland, demographics have been the driving force behind shifting conferences here. What were once farming towns 20-30 years ago are now fast-growing exurbs full of mcmansions and strip malls. The inner ring suburbs like Lakewood and Parma suffered declines in population driven by a lot of factors - not the least of which is simply smaller families. For fully built suburbs, each household just has fewer kids in it. My brother graduated 18 years ahead of me and the same high school had half the enrollment when I graduated. My conference was 100% geographically contiguous. I looked at it today, and only one bordering town is in the conference. That's just because of shifting population.

Campus Flow
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/11/2018 11:57:20 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Every adult knows there has been a decline in the industrial towns of the Midwest. Townships cutting into the tax base isn't understood very well outside of those from the region. Another factor is the existence of catholic schools in those communities. Lima has a catholic high school to compete with the public high school where Findlay does not. Findlay which had absolutely zero suburbs in 1960 and is put forward as a model community for the region the neighboring townships have moved up to D4 and D5 enrollments which together have 50% of Findlay's enrollment. 56,000 live in Findlay's zip code while the census city population is 41,000. In this case the homes built in the township tract are going for 200k-250k while in the city their putting in 500k+ homes in the high end neighborhoods. Its not a suburban flight but people coming into town from rural areas are preferring the smaller township high school with its lower taxes, easier schools and affordability. Where the central city is in real decline like in Lima 37,000 of 87,000 of its zip code live in the central city. There is where the township schools have long passed the city school in quality. The HS enrollment decline of the small cities has accelerated with smaller family sizes. Findlay this past year barely qualified as D1 this year with the smallest enrollment of 72 D1 schools. With the township enrollments included they would be 18th. Lima Senior who once had more students than Findlay is now 400 students less and is danger of dropping down to DIII.

http://thecourier.com/local-sports/2017/04/07/football-co... /

Last Edited: 2/12/2018 12:07:34 AM by Campus Flow

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GoCats105
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/12/2018 7:39:45 AM

The Inter-Valley Conference (IVC) over on the East side of Ohio just expanded over the summer and did something kind of interesting. In football, the South division is otherwise known as the "big schools" which I'm assuming means they have more boys than the others and are in a higher division of OHSAA. In basketball and volleyball, you play each team in your division twice then have two crossover games.

http://www.timesreporter.com/sports/20170515/inter-valley...

bn9
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/12/2018 8:19:20 AM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Diamond Cat wrote:

As a parent of a kid in the Zanesville City School system, I am not in favor of that. We need a league with Maysville, Tri-Valley, Newark, Sheridan, Dover and New Philly. Tri-Valley needs out of the MVL and Zanesville has to come to grips with the fact that the district is shrinking and not act like they are one of the big boys anymore.

74 Cat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/12/2018 8:42:16 AM

Here's a link that gives information on historical conferences in Ohio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defunct_Ohio_high_school_at...

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/12/2018 11:11:09 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

I'm not sure what the rules concerning consolidation in Ohio were but most of it happened in the 60s. Here, there used to be an eight-school Wyandot County League before consolidation. Four of those schools merged into Upper Sandusky's district. Others combined (with schools in neighboring counties) to form Mohawk, Riverdale and Wynford.

There still remains many very small school districts. There are some school districts around here that graduate 25-40 kids a year. Some of them, like Vanlue, even play football, though others like New Riegel are non-football schools. Interestingly, just a couple years ago there was a consolidation of Bettsville (the Bobcats), which had a graduating class of 12 in its final year, into the Old Fort district. There was discussion of Arcadia and Vanlue merging but that didn't work out.

Alan Swank
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/12/2018 12:42:35 PM

74 Cat wrote:

Here's a link that gives information on historical conferences in Ohio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defunct_Ohio_high_school_at...

What a great link. Not only does this show the old leagues it shows the phases of consolidation of school in Ohio. Thank you very much.

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: OT Ohio HS Conference realignments

Posted: 2/13/2018 3:55:28 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

74 Cat wrote:

Here's a link that gives information on historical conferences in Ohio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defunct_Ohio_high_school_at...

What a great link. Not only does this show the old leagues it shows the phases of consolidation of school in Ohio. Thank you very much.

It is crazy to see all the old towns that used to have schools. Personally always laughed at my dad's hometown games because they still announce the scores for the Cooney Wildcats and New Berlin. Kunkle had a nice team too back in the day......

But in all seriousness, NW Ohio got messed up a few years ago because of St. Wendelin not having a football team the one year and then the issues with Toledo Public set off a new chain of realignment.

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