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Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

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oldkatz
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Member Since: 12/22/2004
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 3:34:28 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

DA's post should get pinned somewhere so we can just direct posters to read it before they're allowed to:

- Fantasize about conferences moves
- Demand the elimination or addition of any varsity sport
- Complain about lack of funding
- Suggest extravagant spending on facilities or coaches
- Whine about the less-glamorous realities of the MAC

Boy I agree with this.

DA has spent time researching, probing and talking to the powers as well as picking minds like Vern Alden giving him a pretty good overview that includes visionaries from the past to realities of the present.

Add my agreement. Well researched and articulate analysis. Props to DA!

"All my inside sources tell me I have no inside sources." Salvatore "money bucks" Mafiosiano.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 9:44:16 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

Did I EVER say the MAC should turn it down? Hello? Did I?

bshot44 wrote:

It's a horrific deal ... and one the MAC should not have agreed to.

And?

Not agreeing to the terms and turning something down are drastically different.

You were inferring I said they should turn it down.

They were NEVER going to turn down the deal. But I sure think they could've negotiated a better setup than having only 2 games on-air.

Again ... twisting my words to fit your narrative

OhioStunter
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Location: Chicago
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 11:49:46 PM

These are your words. I didn't twist anything. Perhaps I just didn't understand the drastic difference between not accepting a deal and turning a deal down.

Last Edited: 2/7/2018 11:52:26 PM by OhioStunter

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 9:10:13 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Unfortunately, you also have to point people to this post when they pine for national relevance in basketball/football.

As thorough and well-informed as DA's post was, it was also pretty disheartening. The reality is that we are what we are and there isn't an obvious path to change that. In retrospect, it's clear that my idea of dropping to FBS to bolster the basketball program was uninformed, but what depresses me most about DA's response is that it leaves us fresh out of ideas. How do we get from here to there (there being nationally relevant -- or at least, more nationally relevant) than we are now? There doesn't seem to be a playbook that makes that possible.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 10:11:49 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

These are your words. I didn't twist anything. Perhaps I just didn't understand the drastic difference between not accepting a deal and turning a deal down.

I think we're not too far apart here. I think words just got misinterpreted ... which is quite common on this message board.

I know the MAC needs that $124M .... and I know they would never turn it down regardless of ESPNs terms.

My point was simply this ... the terms suck. And I wish the MAC would've done a better job in negotiating the online vs. on-air portion.

And that's not "demanding" ESPN put their games on-air ... it's more allowing other networks to if they so choose. It sucks ESPN spends $124M to get exclusive rights and then just shoves the MAC in the back of the closet.

CFB is a different animal and I understand that MAC football isn't going to garner a Saturday slot on ESPN/ESPN2/ESPNU ... so the midweek is generally all they'll get.

But CBB is much different. Tonight ESPNU is showing an OVC game Tenn Tech vs. Jax State AND an Am East game Vermont vs. Albany. This is not uncommon for ESPN to put MAAC, Patriot, CUSA, Horizon, MVC, OVC, etc on their airwaves OR those leagues have other TV outlets to televise their games locally or nationally ... while the MAC is relegated to the internet for ALMOST ALL OF THEIR CONFERENCE GAMES.

And that's because ESPN has exclusive rights with the exception of the 12 games CBSSN was able to negotiate away to broadcast.

But no one else is allowed to put MAC games on-air. Not Spectrum Sports all across Ohio ... not BCSN in Toledo area ... not Buffalo TV market ... not Chicago TV market for NIU.

NO. ONE. ELSE.

That's the part of the deal that is completely bogus to me ... and what I wish the MAC would have negotiated better. Their are TV stations that are willing to put MAC games on-air and have in the past ... but with the ESPN deal, they are no longer allowed.

Last Edited: 2/8/2018 10:15:14 AM by bshot44

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 11:28:56 AM

bshot44 wrote:

OhioStunter wrote:

These are your words. I didn't twist anything. Perhaps I just didn't understand the drastic difference between not accepting a deal and turning a deal down.

On negotiations
I introduced the Costanza analogy because he thought Jerry should have negotiated for more Ted Danson money. The MAC isn't Ted Danson. They are more like Tony Danza*. The MAC has zero negotiating leverage. It was likely a take it or leave it deal. And for $124M through 2027, I'm happy that deal was done.

On exposure
MAC teams have will have played on BTN 3 times, FS1 once, CBSSN at least 9 times and ESPN TV at least 6 times this season. You will be able to see more MAC teams on national TV this season than any other season in history. Would I like to see more TV games on ESPN? Absolutely. Maybe we should all email ESPN programming asking for it.

On exclusivity
Where are you getting the exclusivity information that ESPN restricts local broadcasts? There's no contract available to review. Perhaps no other regional cable networks have chosen to pay to air those MAC games. Why would ESPN exclude MAC teams from appearing elsewhere (even though they can appear on CBSSN 9 times this year?) and yet let these other league teams appear locally? Your entire point is based on something you are calling a fact, but do you really know that for sure?

I can watch a UIC game here on NBC Sports Net Chicago (formerly Comcast Sports Chicago), but I believe NBC/Comcast paid the Horizon League for it. Yet UIC is still available on ESPN3 and Horizon League games are on ESPN TV.

*Sometimes we are the Who's the Boss? Tony Danza, sometimes we're Taxi Tony Danza and other times we are The Tony Danza Show Tony Danza.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 11:59:55 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I guess you could look at it that way, but I choose to look at it like borna and others do: The MAC is there for the taking and we've got no reason not to take it. If Ohio comes to dominate this league in football and/or basketball, a lot of problems take care of themselves. Hell, I was at the Portland game in 2012 when the Sweet 16 banner got raised. So were 12,000+ others - for a home opener against a WCC basement dweller.

That's not that long ago and it's not outside of our grasp with the right pieces in place - we've effing done it before. What kills me about the MAC laments is that they ignore the fact that a) we have no business complaining about the league when we can't even compete well in it and b) we can excel on a national level within this very league. Let's focus on dominating the MAC for a good long time (which we've NEVER done) before thinking we belong somewhere else or worrying that this is all there is. The MAC is a perfectly adequate platform for Ohio athletics, provided it earns the recognition we all crave.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 12:13:18 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

I think MAC has some leverage. When you negotiate a $124M deal with a league that has football and basketball ... and you've done business with for over a decade ... I'm guessing they had some ability to negotiate terms. I get your Costanza analogy (I'm a big Seinfeld fan) ... but I think negotiating a TV pilot is a little different ... although, I get your point. The MAC is not the ACC. And I get that. But I think agreeing to be shoved into the back of the closet during basketball season isn't the best they could have gotten ... coupled with the fact that no other network can televise league games.

And yes, I do know this as fact. I have a lot of friends that work at these other networks I named (Spectrum, BCSN, etc) ... and I've had conversations with them asking "Why they don't televise MAC games anymore?" It's always the same answer. "ESPN owns exclusive rights and they can't air anything"

This is in regard to league games only. You mentioned FSN, BTN. Again, those are non-conference games because they're playing teams that have TV contracts with those networks. It's a B1G or a Big East or ACC thing. Not a MAC thing that gets them on TV. That's not what I'm referring to.

I'm referring to actual MAC conference games.

NIU: Last year had two games on CSN Chicago. This year ... none
Ohio: Last year had five games on ASN or BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Buffalo: Last year had five games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Toledo: Last year had ten games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Bowling Green: Last year had eight games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.

I know ASN pretty much went under as a network .... but I think I made my point.

Those five teams alone were on TV thirty times on a non-ESPN network during the MAC season last year. This year none. (*** This is all disregarding CBSSN games)

And here is the kicker ... all those games that were on TV I mentioned above ... they were also available on the ESPN3 platform. So you could watch on TV AND the internet.

My point is ... this new deal give ESPN exclusive broadcasting rights to nearly all MAC conference games. The only caveat is the side deal the MAC struck with CBSSN to broadcast 12 regular season games and the MAC semifinals. And ESPN just throws 90% of them on the internet and does NOT allow anyone else to televise them.

It really hurts the visibility of the league on a local level ... for those that don't have streaming capabilities ... or chose not to use them.

OhioStunter wrote:

You will be able to see more MAC teams on national TV this season than any other season in history.

And that is thanks to CBSSN ... not ESPN.

Your UIC reference is exactly what I'm talking about ... That would be a far, far better deal for MAC teams to have an option of putting their games on actual TV rather than the internet unless they are one of the fortunate 15 or so games that get CBSSN or ESPN TV coverage.

Hence my comment about holding the league hostage during the conference season.

Last Edited: 2/8/2018 12:18:02 PM by bshot44

GoCats105
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 12:18:57 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Sense of Shame's parent ego Bobcat Love made an interesting point in the thread about Lou that seemed to suggest the administration lacks a certain "Ohio" feel. I wonder what getting people in there who actually have knowledge and love for the university could actually do. Hell, how many people who work in ICA actually went to school at Ohio? You'd think having a few would be pretty important, no?

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 12:37:08 PM

bshot44 wrote:

NIU: Last year had two games on CSN Chicago. This year ... none
Ohio: Last year had five games on ASN or BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Buffalo: Last year had five games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Toledo: Last year had ten games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.
Bowling Green: Last year had eight games on ASN/BCSN/Spectrum. This year ... none.

I know ASN pretty much went under as a network .... but I think I made my point.

Those five teams alone were on TV thirty times on a non-ESPN network during the MAC season last year. This year none. (*** This is all disregarding CBSSN games)

And here is the kicker ... all those games that were on TV I mentioned above ... they were also available on the ESPN3 platform. So you could watch on TV AND the internet.

So did the ESPN contract clause regarding exclusivity just kick in this season since the contract has been in place and these local networks aired games last year?

Last Edited: 2/8/2018 12:37:51 PM by OhioStunter

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 1:02:42 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

So did the ESPN contract clause regarding exclusivity just kick in this season since the contract has been in place and these local networks aired games last year?

Basically ... yes.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 1:03:12 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I think point A misunderstands my MAC laments, and I disagree with point B.

My complaints about the MAC aren't really even all that specific to the MAC, and are more complaints about the structure and fundamental purpose of being a non-P5 football team competing at the FBS level. I'm not saying that Ohio specifically is too good for the MAC. I'm saying that Ohio, and other MAC schools, are not eligible to win an a national championship at the FBS level which makes our continued participation at that level inherently uninteresting.

A MAC team can win every game and not end up in the playoff. They could theoretically win every game for three straight seasons and not end up in the playoff. Look at UCF, who plays in a conference generally regarded to be better than the MAC. They weren't eligible for the national championship.

So my point isn't that Ohio is too good for the MAC. It's that I don't understand the point of competing at this level in this conference. Though it's not viable, I actually think competing at the FCS level would be much more interesting. I'd much rather see Ohio play UNH or whoever for a second-tier National Championship than see us play for jewelry from the Little Caesar's Corporation.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/8/2018 1:23:22 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Yeah, I suppose "national relevance" is a bit subjective with FBS football. That said, two MAC teams in relatively recent years have made an access bowl game. I agree there's no chance of a national championship, but there is significant exposure for an undefeated season in football, and that lofty goal is at least within the realm of possibility.

As for basketball, I stand by it. Consistently making the NCAA Tournament would make this a pretty exciting program with a decent amount of national recognition. Winning games in those tournaments would add to that. Again, a lofty and difficult goal, but also possible.

D.A.
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/9/2018 10:28:58 AM

Some interesting and excellent personal perspectives shared as follow up to my "War and Peace" posting, and appreciate the kind words on the time it took to put that all together. If on occasion, you can't share the knowledge you have, then what good is it?

I also wanted to share my thoughts on perception of OHIO snobbery by other MAC fan bases . I think by and large, they are absolutely correct! In many cases, we are the Temple or UMASS of the conference, both of whom felt they were too good for the MAC, and neither of whom ever proved a thing while affiliate members of the conference.

I think the FB junkies are a little more realistic on OHIO's much improved status under Solich, however the incessant chatter on having not achieved a MACC in over fifty years, the next Boise, etc, gets very easy to laugh at, especially if you are not an OHIO alum. We may spend more in support of FB than we did in the wilderness years, but our budget is still less than half the MAC team's, and bottom quartile of FBS, so all the grandiose expectations relative to the reality of spend is very entertaining.

And on the hoops side of things, we are absolutely and completely obnoxious about our perceived status as historically being the class of the MAC, and too good for the conference. I like borna's use of the "Bluebloods" jargon, because we really aren't. Has OHIO performed above average over the conference's sixty year history...sure. We may have done modestly better in the tourney when we qualify than our MAC peers, but come on, we aren't rolling everyone year in, year out.

We sound exactly like those pious Temple and UMASS fans who always said they couldn't sacrifice to "downgrade" hoops in order to become a full MAC member. Go Screw. Both of those programs, if so superior to MAC hoops competition that they would always lay waste to the conference, would be a DEAD CINCH LOCK to make the tourney every year, and as our hoops experts here always assert, the only measure to hoops success for a mid major is making the tourney every year. So what do you have to lose if you make the tourney every year. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Extrapolate that to OHIO: if you can't dominate your own conference year over year while having the highest budget, and you feel you need to find a worthier conference affiliation, and I am an opposing fan base, I'm thinking these OHIO guys are either insane or arrogant a holes, perhaps both, just like we used to think of Temple or UMASS fans. (and we actually knew that Mark Hunter guy was certifiable)

Just my $.02.

Last Edited: 2/9/2018 10:30:38 AM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

Recovering Journalist
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/9/2018 10:50:59 AM

D.A. wrote:

Extrapolate that to OHIO: if you can't dominate your own conference year over year while having the highest budget, and you feel you need to find a worthier conference affiliation, and I am an opposing fan base, I'm thinking these OHIO guys are either insane or arrogant a holes, perhaps both, just like we used to think of Temple or UMASS fans. (and we actually knew that Mark Hunter guy was certifiable)

Just my $.02.

I emphatically agree with this, but I'd caution anyone peeking at this board (or looking at any other MAC team's fan board) against taking the posts of a handful of people as a true pulse of the fan base. Just by virtue of being active on here, we're a minority fringe group that cares more about this stuff than most sane people. A few posters on every MAC board have delusional dreams of bigger things; I don't think that affliction's any worse here (your long and informative post should actually be pinned on the MAC board!).

I think the difference with the UMass and Temple examples is that those administrations believed they were too good for the MAC, and backed that attitude with actions. I don't see that with any current MAC school.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/9/2018 11:38:46 AM

I think you guys are dead on with your assessments. There are the lunatic fringe out there ... but ultimately, Ohio belongs in the MAC.

I think it's a totally reasonable expectation for Ohio to compete for the MAC title in both football and basketball every season with the financial commitment we make in both of those sports.

To think Ohio should jump to another league is sort of laughable when they have obviously not outgrown the MAC.

Never has Ohio won a MAC football championship in the modern era. Never has Ohio made back-to-back NCAA tournaments in basketball.

I think if Ohio had gone full-Gonzaga and dominated the MAC for a decade-plus ... you could have a serious discussion of jumping leagues.

Until then ... concentrate on becoming the dominant program in this league. That's the next hurdle for Ohio. They've proven dominant in spurts ... winning the MAC East in football ... winning NCAA tourney games in basketball. But after each of those, Ohio hasn't found ability to springboard to sustained success at that level.

NIU did it for a long period of time in football ... Akron in basketball.

Ohio hasn't found that gear yet where they can win big multiple years in a row.

Last Edited: 2/9/2018 11:39:59 AM by bshot44

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