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Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

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D.A.
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/5/2018 7:08:34 PM

So at BLSoS's request, here is how a conversation with Jim would likely go regarding why OHIO should remain in FBS football, and why it should never leave the MAC.

I’ll try to make the explanation as linear as possible, as much of the logic ties into a decision tree format, however a number of items are interrelated yet not linear. This is a compilation of various conversations I have had over the last couple of years with Jim and other members of the ICA and Development staff, and I have added data and commentary for illustrative purposes. (apologies in advance for the lack of brevity)

First and foremost, OHIO is NEVER going to leave the MAC, and for the following financial reasons:

-The budget mechanism for OHIO Athletics (principally from Student Fees), and the continued pressure to reduce the volume of that subsidy by students does not permit significant increases in investment in intercollegiate athletics. For each of the last several years, the Office of the President has asked ICA to increase their self-sufficiency by seeking other revenue streams in order to allow the subsidy percentage from student fees to go down, and the subsidy has indeed been reduced in recent years.

-The MAC permits OHIO Athletics to sponsor their NCAA Division I minimum number of sports, which is important if you need to be able to operate as few DI sports as possible, and at the most efficient funding level possible.

-You can’t be a full MAC member (and by extension receive the ESPN subsidy) if you do not participate in FBS football.

-The MAC is largely a bus league, and because of that, MAC athletic budgets are able to operate at a built in discount to other mid major conferences. This is incredibly important when you are attempting to compete with the other mid major conferences. This permits the MAC to have much lower annual budgets than other mid-major peers while still competing at mid major levels in MBB and FBS. After coaching staff and admin salaries PLUS scholarships, the highest budget line item for each program is travel expenses. When you are increasing the number of flights and overnights for athletic teams because you are doubling (or more) the number of flights/overnights, you are creating a huge and presently unbudgeted increase into an already lean P&L. Example: If OHIO, who has the largest budget in the MAC for MBB, was accepted into the A10, its current budget would have to be increased from $3MM just to accommodate the spike in T&E, and those funds (that do not presently exist) have to come from somewhere. I don’t know in which hypothetical conference all of you want to participate, so I’ll leave it to you to determine how much more the travel expense line item increase is going to be to send every women’s and men’s team to schools outside of the MAC radius of Kent/Miami/Akron/BG/etc, and/or have easy weekend double headers like the EMU/CMU/WMU’s, which are easy to double dip during a weekend trip and help control the MAC athletics budgets so significantly as to make it such a great value to most of its members.

-Aside from the recent MAC contract with ESPN providing a significant cash infusion to the program, which is largely based on the MAC offering FBS football, and despite lots of significant effort from IMG and the OHIO Athletics Development staff, Athens remote location (with a very limited corporate/business base) makes it incredibly difficult to find major untapped revenue streams that would support significant increases in ICA budget to “go to the next level” or participate in an arms race in any sport. (see recent examples of inability to sell naming rights to Peden’s field and the Convo’s court) OHIO cannot afford to walk away from the annual subsidy of ESPN dollars when still seeking to find new partners in funding, especially when you major competition is the evil empire, CBJ and the Crew, which are actually located Columbus, the city in which most of the targets for corporate sponsorships reside. Unless you can think of a good way to move Athens closer to a major metro, nothing about this tough uphill battle will change.

-Additionally, the OHIO Bobcat Club, which has realized significant increases at the top membership levels (in members and dollars), has continued to fight to generate “average” level donors, and has struggled to do so since its initial bump of new donors when taking over from the Green and White Club. The difficulty is at the Captain level or lower, under $1,000, where OHIO is one of the poorest performers in the MAC in generating funds via alumni donations, this despite having increased the number of staff significantly to try to change this flat trend. While the program could use a T. Boone Pickens (a la Bob Walter/Perry Sook/Peterson brothers), it doesn’t have a T. Boone Pickens-esque problem, it has a Joe Lunch Pail issue. The most successful mechanism to incent fans to provide an increased charitable donation in recent years has been the required donation added to seats/parking in premium locations, but general membership in OBC that isn’t tied to a guaranteed seating positing continues to be flat year after year. The strategic initiative to attack that continuing problem is the new Building Champions program, which is seeking to double the number of donors from the presently stagnant level of members.

-Evidence of the fact that you don’t have a higher value donor problem is the repeated reliance on high level donors to increase in investment in our major sports WITHOUT relying on student fees to pay for nearly every major investment: what many of you call “the arms race”. Wren, Walter Fieldhouse, Convo upgrades, Sook Center, Strength and Conditioning Center Upgrades, all the “heavy lifting” for these was done by major gifts from major donors. Then consider that it was going to take a similar, donor based program to be the source of the Groce retention fund (that increase in salary was ALL coming from donor gifts), and long story short, you are NEVER going to pay Greg Marshall level salaries without major donors stepping up. And while OHIO donors were willing to get John to $750k, I don’t know that we have any major donors that are willing to pony up $1MM or more a year to stipend a head coach to even half of the Marshall level. Interesting comparison to Wichita, as I did a really quick search on their ICA budget and funding, is that Greg Marshall’s $3MM is not on their annual institutional budget, as it is funded off the books by independent funds. You can see detailed on their 2017 annual ICA staff budget that they have another coach that has $127k in funding coming from independent funds as well, and doesn’t hit the University/ICA budget. You can also prove this out in the USA Today 2015-2016 budget numbers, where Wichita’s total revenues are $28MM while their budget is $25MM that still requires a student subsidy, the $3MM salary fund being the private donations fill the gap between the two. (might not hurt that your basketball arena is named KOCH Arena…yes, that Koch…and to be located in a metro area with a combined total population of 650k, to work a trick like that)

So…despite these inconvenient truths, you still want to cut Football to reallocate those funds so you can increase your budget to a level even higher than your MAC peers and participate in a conference other than the MAC…

…But your problem is now Title IX! You can’t just drop from FBS’ 85 men’s scholarships to FCS’ 65…or for that matter no football at all…without REPLACING all those scholarships by adding men’s sports to retain the title nine balance. Again, you have to recall from above that in the MAC, OHIO is already participating at the minimum number of DI sports, and you cannot eliminate women’s sports/scholarships to even out the men’s scholarship reduction and remain DI. You already provide a full complement of MBB scholarships, so what are you going to do, bring back men’s track or tennis? Add lacrosse? If you do that, then you have to hire coaches and admin staff, and fund equipment and facilities to support the sport/s that don’t presently exist. And you could add scholarships to men’s sports that are not currently providing full scholly’s to all participants (Golf/Baseball/Wrestling/Cross Country), but would having most or all members of the other men’s sports we presently sponsor provide you the same return on investment and the promotional/television visibility that FBS football in the MAC does? Uh…no.

A great example for comparison’s sake is, again, Wichita, who has an estimated annual budget of $25MM without football (3/15/17 article from Kansas.com, when at the time they were in the MVC, and only 25% of that funding comes from student fees) They sponsor two fewer D1 sports than OHIO while moving up to the American for ’17-18, have the only one off agreement for hoops of being permitted to be a full member without FBS football, and their $3MM MBB head coach salary is 100% off of their annual budget books. That is the dream scenario, correct?

NOW, in exchange for American membership, you get to DRIVE all of your teams to just Cincinnati, but FLY them for every conference game for every sport to: Memphis, Houston, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, UCF, USF, UCONN, Temple and East Carolina. What do you suppose that has done to their 2017-8 budget for the American versus the MVC? Follow that with needing to find the necessary $2.5MM entrance fee to the conference. (which for Wichita can likely offset in American tourney credits, and while they forfeited all 16 of the tourney credits they still have outstanding in the MVC, they will likely be able to replace all those in short order)

In what alternate reality can someone foresee the OHIO Board of Trustees permitting spending $3MM on a MBB head coaches salary, let alone increasing the annual operating budget of MBB to $7MM/year from the current level (a 300% increase), on the backs of donors and students, to be able to compete on a Wichita level in just MBB?

So ultimately, why would you deconstruct football and walk away from $700k/yr from ESPN to find a conference that will pay you far less for broadcast fees (because the American would be your only trade up for fees, and that invite is NEVER coming), voluntarily choose to reconstruct your entire ICA department in order to remain Title IX compliant, having to add new sports/coaches/staff when you already are in a conference that permits you to sponsor a bare minimum number of sports, allows you to spend a bare bones minimum in budget and permits you to be at the top level in all major sports? There is no logical reason to voluntarily do this.

This should illustrate why the topic of dropping or downsizing football is far more complex than just dropping sport X and throwing a bunch of money at MBB. And while many of here HATE the MAC because it is “keeping hoops down” as it is only a “one bid league”, and HATE football, because they perceive it as stealing funds from hoops, when you look at the present state holistically, MAC basketball and football and the ESPN contract is THE BEST thing for OHIO ICA, and is precisely what is permitting OHIO to increase the investment in MBB to the level it has in recent years.

Additionally, the OTHER best thing that ever happened to the MBB program in recent history was Groce’s success. With that came an aspiration (from OHIO and the remainder of the MAC members) to remain at that level, and brought the many increases to the hoops budget for things like: increased salaries and staff, travel via charter for some trips instead of always flying commercial, upgrades to facilities, etc. These are similar benefits that our mid major peers enjoyed before we started competing in the mid major hoops arms race. Like it or not, if you believe there is such a thing as an arms race in ICA, then you need to embrace the fact that it exists BOTH in MBB and FB, and we are participating in both. So suck it up, buttercups, MBB is in far better shape than it would have been without the present set of circumstances and Groce’s 2010-12 success, not worse.

Understanding in greater detail the difficulties in dealing with budget limitations while trying to remain competitive in D1 sports has actually led me to appreciating the MAC more, not less, and I hope we never leave it, as it allows us to retain the proper balance between the academic mission while still using ICA as the front porch to the university.

And…if you aren’t a member of the OBC on some level and you find yourself complaining about our level of spending to support MBB or questioning our commitment to success in MBB, you are actually part of the problem, and can easily participate in being part of the solution with your donation to the OBC.

Last Edited: 2/5/2018 7:22:28 PM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday

GoCats105
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/5/2018 7:54:23 PM

Well thought out post, DA. Probably one the best I've read on this site in a long time.

I don't have a problem staying in the MAC. I think the MAC could do a better job negotiating deals and marketing its member schools though.

bornacatfan
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/5/2018 7:54:30 PM

D.A.

Thanks for taking the time to write, research, listen, discuss, analyze and regurgitate (not in that order of course). That is stellar. That answers many of the questions folks have posed and shows why the MAC stability is the best answer for us presently.

I still am of the belief that this should be the class of the MAC EVERY year in hoops.... we kind of need to find a Mark Few or Jim needs to talk to Collier and figure out how to build from the inside.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Alan Swank
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/5/2018 8:21:39 PM

I too think we should stay in the MAC.

Here's an article that Arkley wrote almost 6 years ago about the end of the Green and White Club's 54 year existence.

http://www.athensmessenger.com/sports/ohiouniversity/gree...

The part of having to join the obc to be a Green and White member was the final nail in the coffin for the club. One unforeseen and problematic side effect of that are the scores of former fans who just walked away from OU athletics altogether. They are no longer ticket holders or contributors. I don't think you'll get them back because with each passing year they get used to not having Bobcat athletics as a part of their life. Combine that with the non-ductability of donations for most people with the new tax code and collegiate fundraisers everywhere have a difficult sales job ahead of them.

Campus Flow
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/5/2018 9:45:12 PM

This idea that Ohio can put all of their institutional resources into basketball to advance the national brand of the university is an idea from decades past when it was only ESPN/2 for cable sports with the entire nation watching. Everyone knew who the basketball schools were on ESPN. Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple, UMass would be advertised for on commercials and had the resultant recognition by the public as to what those programs were about. Nobody is glued to ESPN these days. College basketball takes a back seat to the NBA contract. HS students aren't into college basketball. They aren't reading the sports section when they get home from school. If they are doing anything with content at all they are streaming TV shows. Athens will always be known as one of the great college towns first and before athletics. Look at what Gonzaga was able to do and it put them on the map! They had nothing else going for them that is why. For those of us who envied what UMass had with its final four run and the pub that accompanied it, did any of you make the trip there for the football game? UMass isn't even the best college in its own town Amherst is. The campus is dreadful and so was the football stadium. Its not worth a stinkin second bid. Be greatful OU has an identity and is a magical place to set foot on campus.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

bobcat2nc
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 12:10:37 AM

Some well thought out posts here.

I acknowledge there is arms race in both MBB and FB. I have participated in the past and to a smaller amount now. I have decided I have other things I want to spend my discretionary funds on now.

The big money has helped with many things but it has also created an unsatiatable monster that I don’t care to feed.

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 8:53:20 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 12:13:28 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

This statement is so true ... which makes it all the more frustrating that the MAC did such a poor job negotiating their contract with ESPN.

I know the money they got is paramount to keeping the league's head above water ... but what exposure are they getting from ESPN in terms of hoops?

Two games were scheduled to be on ESPN on-air networks in 2017-18.

TWO?!?!

CBS Sports Network does a billion times better job with their coverage and have 10 games on the schedule to start the year ... including the MAC Semifinals. They would most definitely do more if it weren't for the iron grip ESPN has on the league.

The MAC Q'finals will be broadcasted on the internet this year. Great. What an awesome way to showcase the league.

It's a total joke.

All so they can put football games on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays in November.

ESPN is only about one thing .... ESPN. They use MAC basketball to try to drive up content for their digital platform. What exposure is that getting the MAC?

STO, Time-Warner/Spectrum, etc .... none of the local sports networks in the midwest or Buffalo can broadcast a MAC game on TV because of ESPN.

It's a horrific deal ... and one the MAC should not have agreed to.

How they allow ESPN to dictate where 80% of their games are broadcasted is incredibly short-sighted and, IMHO, has done incredible damage to the visibility of the league.

The Horizon League gets more TV exposure than the MAC.

I think it's sad ... and the MAC will continue to struggle for notoriety/visability with playing almost exclusively on the internet during the conference season.

Last Edited: 2/6/2018 12:14:17 PM by bshot44

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 3:26:35 PM

D.A. wrote:

Now I understand why you didn't want to type this out. Sorry, I had no idea it was gonna be 2,000 words.

That said, this is really interesting and there's a lot in there I hadn't considered/flat out didn't know.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 4:03:23 PM

DA's post should get pinned somewhere so we can just direct posters to read it before they're allowed to:

- Fantasize about conferences moves
- Demand the elimination or addition of any varsity sport
- Complain about lack of funding
- Suggest extravagant spending on facilities or coaches
- Whine about the less-glamorous realities of the MAC

bornacatfan
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 4:25:32 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Boy I agree with this.

DA has spent time researching, probing and talking to the powers as well as picking minds like Vern Alden giving him a pretty good overview that includes visionaries from the past to realities of the present.

.
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 4:35:44 PM

D.A. wrote:

Note to self: Do not get into argument with D.A.

GroverBall
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 4:37:28 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 5:00:59 PM

GroverBall wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Yeah DA just did a mic drop on this thread......

BobcatSports
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 5:11:47 PM

Some thoughts on these recent posts:

- Common sense would tell one that fantasing a move to a D1 conference other than the MAC is shear folly.

- I do not believe that we or any other MAC program has the ability to retain long term the next “Mark Few” albeit a MAC program having their version of a T Boone Pickens. ANY MAC program that makes “The Dance” has their coach’s Dance ticket punched to supposedly greener pastures. I cite Stan Heath, John Groce and Bobby Hurley as recent examples. History has proven that the MAC has been a never ending pipeline for coaches to propel themselves to the bright lites of stardom elsewhere none more pronounced than the football programs. From that storied Cradle of Coaches to others in the MAC has seen the Pont’s, Ara,Bo,Holtz,Saban,Urban and the recently departed Boat-Rower use the MAC to achieve financial and professional stardom on much,much bigger stages elsewhere and the MAC schools had ZERO financial ability to prevent it from happening.

-I’m not suggesting we not in every way possible try to land a Mark Few type. Just don’t get to attached to him IF he proves to be Few-like. He won’t be here long. As the saying goes history has a way of repeating itself and the MAC certainly has lots of history of ANY hint of success of a coach quickly jettisoned off by more deep pocketed suitors.

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 5:35:13 PM

bshot44 wrote:

So if you are commissioner of the MAC, where the current ESPN deal is $1.4M (about $120,000 a year per school), and ESPN's offer for a new deal is nearly $120M through 2027 (ensuring that each school gets $700K+ per year -- about a 500% increase), you are going to turn it down?

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/6/2018 5:45:44 PM

BobcatSports wrote:

I agree. If you want coaches with longevity, you'll have to accept coaches in the Frank Solich or Larry Hunter mold. Those with a connection to Ohio or the university that are more set in their ways and can "settle down" in Athens. Years of good, sometimes great, seasons, but never anything really over the top.

The Grobes, Groces, Phillips of the world are young enough to be attractive to other programs and would likely take advantage of more lucrative contracts at bigger schools if they come their way. They may have really breakout seasons at Ohio, but the downside as you mentioned is that they likely move on.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 1:34:45 AM

OhioStunter wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

I'm not turning it down ... but I wouldn't lay down and let them use the MAC as filler for content during November weeknights.

That's all the MAC simply is to ESPN.

I'm not saying they should build programming around the MAC ... but I don't think it's out of the question to get more than 2 games on ESPN/ESPN2/ESPNU during basketball season.

There are over 200 league games ... the can't leverage to get more than 2 of them on national TV ... instead of "internet TV"?

Especially if ESPN is going to have a stranglehold on the rights and not allow anyone else to put them on TV.

It's almost as if the MAC is being held hostage by ESPN.

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 10:50:35 AM

bshot44 wrote:

The MAC has no leverage vs. ESPN. We can't be the Costanza holding out to NBC for more money to deliver a TV pilot. We don't command Ted Danson money.

This season has the most MAC games on national TV in MAC history. ESPN is not holding the MAC hostage -- there are MAC games on BTN, FS1 and CBS Sports Net. Would I like more games on ESPN TV? Sure. Would I jeopardize a $124M multi-year contract to hold out for it? No. Plus, if there's a MAC team good enough, ESPN has flexibility to add in any game to a wildcard lineup for TV.

People have more access to MAC games on the world's largest sports network than ever before. I only need to tap two buttons on my phone to watch the game on an airplane. I can watch games on my big screen TV at home through my Xbox. Any bar can tune it in if asked. And ESPN is paying us $124M for that for the next 10 years. That's a horrific deal?

Last Edited: 2/7/2018 10:53:02 AM by OhioStunter

SBH
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 11:25:09 AM

I once told a client that I wanted Ted Danson money. He had no idea what I was talking about.

Ohio69
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 11:50:03 AM

I think this would be how the conversation would go:

ESPN: This is what we'll pay. This is when you'll play. This is where your games will be broadcast.

Commissioner Bshott44: Well, hold on, we deserve (click).... Hello? ... I think we got cut off. Get them back on the phone...

ESPN: Oh, hi. Yeah, we just faxed you the contract. Sign it in and send it back. You have an hour. (Overheard while they are hanging up: Get CUSA and Sunbelt on the phone, these dummies may not go for it.) (Click)

Do I want a better deal? Sure. Who doesn't. Does the MAC deserve one? Not that I can tell. Lucky to get what we have for a bunch of directional schools in small markets with seriously low fan bases.

Last Edited: 2/7/2018 11:52:02 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

catfan28
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 1:08:15 PM

DA hits the nail on the head. That is our reality. Now, should we expect more than this basketball season? Of course. But the dreams of being in a power conference, etc. are just that...dreams.

bshot44
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 2:02:01 PM

OhioStunter wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

You and others are just spinning my comments to fit your narrative.

Did I EVER say the MAC should turn it down? Hello? Did I?

I said they did an awful job of negotiating. To have two basketball games on ESPN on-air networks this year is laughable.

Sports Bars CANNOT just tune in if asked. They do not have access to ESPN3. That's just misinformation.

(And while we're at it ... I have yet to be on an airplane that has Wi-Fi strong enough to stream ESPN3...full disclosure, I typically fly Southwest)

MAC games are NOT on BTN & FS1. MAC teams happen to be on when they play a B1G team in the non-conference.

CBSSN gets about 10 games & MAC semis ... and would gladly take more I'm guessing if ESPN didn't have exclusive rights to dump them online.

Spectrum and other local sports cable networks are no longer able to broadcast games on TV (where most people still consume & more eyeballs can see them)

Would the league not benefit having Buffalo exposed a little more than they are this year ... other than the internet where almost no one will "stumble" across them on a Tuesday night.

You continue to miss the point because you think I'm beating my chest saying the MAC should cut ties and turn down ESPN money.

Not. The. Case.

I am simply saying they did a poor job maximizing the exposure. They sold out basketball to get football on TV during weeknights in November.

ESPN paid (handsomely) for the rights and are doing only what fits their needs. The MAC is just forced to take it.

The money is paramount for the league (as I said in an earlier post) ... but outside of the money they're pocketing, what else is the MAC getting out of the deal in basketball?

Sun Belt games are on ESPN3 AND televised locally in a lot of markets.

Same for Horizon, MVC, MWC ...

Not the MAC .... they are ONLY league that exclusively plays on the internet with the exception of a few CBSSN games. That is merely fact.

GoCats105
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 2:10:51 PM

Have to admit I do get really annoyed when I see a smaller conference playing on ESPNU in a time slot that could easily fit a MAC matchup. It happens a lot.

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/7/2018 2:24:37 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Did I EVER say the MAC should turn it down? Hello? Did I?

bshot44 wrote:

It's a horrific deal ... and one the MAC should not have agreed to.

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