Welcome Guest!
Create an Account
login email:
password:
site searchwhere to watchcontact usabout usadvertise with ushelp
Message Board
BobcatAttack.com Message Board
Ohio Basketball
Topic:  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Topic:  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
Author
Message
D.A.
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Georgetown, ME
Post Count: 1,174

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 9:05:34 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
100%Cat wrote:


I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.



I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.



Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months


Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.


Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I’m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months


We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?



Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months


Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

As change is typically evolutionary, wouldn't it be prudent to first focus on being dominant in our own conference before being nationally prominent? And with that in mind, and since budget was brought into the discussion, we already spend more than our peers, no? SO...what is preventing us from dominating our own conference?

And another sincere and earnest question, as I know many here think of OHIO as a "basketball" school, and after doing a lot of review on the OHIO basketball record book recently: when was OHIO ever dominant in basketball in a conference that consisted of more than six teams? And even then, was it ever dominant in basketball in it's conference?

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 9:46:15 AM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
Back to Top
  
SBH
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,746

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 9:20:25 AM 
Our only real chance of attaining consistent national prominence in basketball passed when Danny Nee left town. He had been approached about the Nebraska job but really didn't want to leave Athens. He had built a killer staff and wanted to let that play out at Ohio, but needed Charles Ping to commit the budgetary resources to make it sustainable. That would have meant downgrading football, and Ping said no.
The rest is history.
Back to Top
  
bobcatsquared
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 5,032

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 9:29:37 AM 
A great staff with Billy Hahn and Fran Fraschilla assisting Nee. Hahn, while not an accomplished head coach, recently retired as a very successful and highly thought of assistant coach at Ohio, Maryland and finally with Huggy Bear at WVU. That staff was establishing a recruiting connection to the basketball hotbeds of NYC and Philly.

Like UB today, those teams had a frontline that could and did match up with the big boys of college hoops.
Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 10:22:29 AM 
D.A. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
100%Cat wrote:


I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.



I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.



Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months


Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.


Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I’m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months


We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?



Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months


Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

As change is typically evolutionary, wouldn't it be prudent to first focus on being dominant in our own conference before being nationally prominent? And with that in mind, and since budget was brought into the discussion, we already spend more than our peers, no? SO...what is preventing us from dominating our own conference?

And another sincere and earnest question, as I know many here think of OHIO as a "basketball" school, and after doing a lot of review on the OHIO basketball record book recently: when was OHIO ever dominant in basketball in a conference that consisted of more than six teams? And even then, was it ever dominant in basketball in it's conference?


I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 10:33:16 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
Back to Top
  
UpSan Bobcat
General User



Member Since: 8/30/2005
Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
Post Count: 3,789

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 10:52:04 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
So Duke was not one of the best 16 teams that year. In fact they were not one of the top 32. Yea right. Since it is not a round robin the teams can not be ranked by the placement (nor are they). And yes. The tournament does not necessarily determine the best team, but it does determine a champion - hence the National Champion.


So the runner-up can be the best team, while the winner is just the champion? This makes no earthly sense. Yes, if Duke didn't make the Sweet 16 cut, they were, in the final analysis, not one of the 16 best teams. Don't like it, Duke. Tough cookies!


The best team more often than not does not win the championship. That's the randomness of a 68-team single-elimination tournament. Ask any statistician. It's not a very good way of determining who the best team in the country is. But that's also what makes it fun. If the best team won every game, it would be pointless to play most games. You don't necessarily have to be the best. You just have to come up biggest when it matters most (and a little luck helps). And just because winning the tournament doesn't prove a team to be the best doesn't mean it diminishes the accomplishment any.
Back to Top
  
OhioStunter
General User



Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 10:58:44 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.


I think that is an excellent example, however, Richmond has not had to support a D1 FBS program, so it may be easier to focus on the basketball program.
Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 11:15:27 AM 
100%Cat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
So Duke was not one of the best 16 teams that year. In fact they were not one of the top 32. Yea right. Since it is not a round robin the teams can not be ranked by the placement (nor are they). And yes. The tournament does not necessarily determine the best team, but it does determine a champion - hence the National Champion.


So the runner-up can be the best team, while the winner is just the champion? This makes no earthly sense. Yes, if Duke didn't make the Sweet 16 cut, they were, in the final analysis, not one of the 16 best teams. Don't like it, Duke. Tough cookies!


Is the winner of the MAC tournament always the best team in the MAC...or the team that gets hot in Cleveland? It can be both, but it's often not.


If you win you're the best. Strange concept I know. Learned it on my last visit to Mars.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 11:35:07 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.


I think that is an excellent example, however, Richmond has not had to support a D1 FBS program, so it may be easier to focus on the basketball program.



In 2013 Richmond spend $23M on Athletics; $4.1M on MBB, and $6M on Football, so even though they are FCS, their football numbers are comparable to ours.
Back to Top
  
OhioStunter
General User



Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 12:01:31 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioStunter wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.


I think that is an excellent example, however, Richmond has not had to support a D1 FBS program, so it may be easier to focus on the basketball program.



In 2013 Richmond spend $23M on Athletics; $4.1M on MBB, and $6M on Football, so even though they are FCS, their football numbers are comparable to ours.


Isn't Ohio's FB budget $10M? If so, that's a 67% increase over Richmond's FB budget, which is not insignificant. Doesn't Ohio only spend $3M on MBB? The $4M less Richmond spends on FB can help them put more into basketball than Ohio spends.
Back to Top
  
BillyTheCat
General User

Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 12:11:55 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
OhioStunter wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.


I think that is an excellent example, however, Richmond has not had to support a D1 FBS program, so it may be easier to focus on the basketball program.



In 2013 Richmond spend $23M on Athletics; $4.1M on MBB, and $6M on Football, so even though they are FCS, their football numbers are comparable to ours.


Isn't Ohio's FB budget $10M? If so, that's a 67% increase over Richmond's FB budget, which is not insignificant. Doesn't Ohio only spend $3M on MBB? The $4M less Richmond spends on FB can help them put more into basketball than Ohio spends.


Those are also 2013 numbers. Richmond is private, so they do not have to release their figures annually, however, you can bet that 5 years later their football and basketball committments have increased. And I am not sure about $10M for Ohio football
Back to Top
  
D.A.
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Georgetown, ME
Post Count: 1,174

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 12:44:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
D.A. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
100%Cat wrote:


I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.



I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.



Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months


Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.


Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I’m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months


We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?



Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months


Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

As change is typically evolutionary, wouldn't it be prudent to first focus on being dominant in our own conference before being nationally prominent? And with that in mind, and since budget was brought into the discussion, we already spend more than our peers, no? SO...what is preventing us from dominating our own conference?

And another sincere and earnest question, as I know many here think of OHIO as a "basketball" school, and after doing a lot of review on the OHIO basketball record book recently: when was OHIO ever dominant in basketball in a conference that consisted of more than six teams? And even then, was it ever dominant in basketball in it's conference?


I'm not sure that change is actually evolutionary in this business. There are plenty of examples of teams that changed their circumstances without on-the-court success. Change can be achieved with financial commitment alone.

I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).

But during that 13-year lull, Richmond increased their athletic budget, renovated their arena, increased the basketball team's budget and moved from the CAA to the Atlantic 10. Interest amongst fans increased without wins because suddenly the home slate of games included Xavier, Temple, and Dayton instead of James Madison and Old Dominion. They started playing on TV regularly. They started attracting a higher caliber of recruit. They became able to retain coaches whereas previously they lost those that had success (Beilein, for instance). And they did all of that without dominating any conference.

In fact, in 1998, they beat South Carolina as a 14 seed. And without winning another tournament game, they were an at-large 7 seed by 2010.

There are plenty of other examples like that one. Ohio beat Richmond the only time we played them recently. From 1998 to present, Ohio has fielded many teams that would have beat Richmond consistently on the court. But they beat the shit out of us off the court and as a result, regardless of how many MAC games we win, they're better positioned for success than we are.


Why do you have to spend less on FB to spend more on BB? I always hear this straw man, which doesn't hold water, because we have significantly increased spending in hoops since the Groce era, and we outspend all of our MAC peers. Back to my original question: if spending more than anyone else in the MAC doesn't make us dominant in the MAC, then how much more than more than anyone else do you want to spend in order to be dominant in your own conference?

And don't get me wrong, I like that we spend at the top of the MAC in hoops, however it is also fair to ask what the return is on that level of spend, and to expect to outperform your conference peers while spending more than them.

I also like the fact that we spend less than half the teams in the MAC in FB, yet we seem to far outperform our spend, and I feel that the investment in FB, where you are only competing with 1/3 of the number of schools in FBS and we are spending in the bottom quartile in budget v all FBS schools, gets us a lot of exposure when teams like Gonzaga, Creighton, VCU, Wichita State and the other high mid major schools are getting ZERO marketing exposure from August to October.

ICA is an investment in public relations/school spirit, and if OHIO is going to compete in ICA, I want us to have a ten month investment, and not lose any marketing opportunities during an entire semester that we have in football.

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 12:51:49 PM by D.A.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
Back to Top
  
OhioStunter
General User



Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 12:47:46 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:

Those are also 2013 numbers. Richmond is private, so they do not have to release their figures annually, however, you can bet that 5 years later their football and basketball committments have increased. And I am not sure about $10M for Ohio football


The source I used for Ohio was: https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/institution/details


Back to Top
  
D.A.
General User

Member Since: 8/6/2010
Location: Georgetown, ME
Post Count: 1,174

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 3:12:47 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
D.A. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
100%Cat wrote:


I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.



I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.



Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months


Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.


Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I’m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months


We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?



Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months


Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

As change is typically evolutionary, wouldn't it be prudent to first focus on being dominant in our own conference before being nationally prominent? And with that in mind, and since budget was brought into the discussion, we already spend more than our peers, no? SO...what is preventing us from dominating our own conference?

And another sincere and earnest question, as I know many here think of OHIO as a "basketball" school, and after doing a lot of review on the OHIO basketball record book recently: when was OHIO ever dominant in basketball in a conference that consisted of more than six teams? And even then, was it ever dominant in basketball in it's conference?


I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).



In 2008, Richmond broke ground on a $28MM, purpose built football facility which opened in 2010, and is LEED Silver Certified. A University that does that isn't divesting of football to benefit basketball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Claiborne_Robins_Stadium http://bcwh.com/work/university-of-richmond-e-claiborne-r... /

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

"This isn't just another walkover from the MAC." Kirk Herbstreit, another DB, on College Football Gameday
Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 3:31:47 PM 
D.A. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
D.A. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
100%Cat wrote:


I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.



I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.



Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months


Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.


Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I’m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months


We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?



Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months


Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

As change is typically evolutionary, wouldn't it be prudent to first focus on being dominant in our own conference before being nationally prominent? And with that in mind, and since budget was brought into the discussion, we already spend more than our peers, no? SO...what is preventing us from dominating our own conference?

And another sincere and earnest question, as I know many here think of OHIO as a "basketball" school, and after doing a lot of review on the OHIO basketball record book recently: when was OHIO ever dominant in basketball in a conference that consisted of more than six teams? And even then, was it ever dominant in basketball in it's conference?


I think Richmond's an instructive example. They went 13 years without an NCAA tournament win. They didn't dominate their conference during that period -- in fact, they basically got lapped by two previous conference foes (VCU and George Mason).



In 2008, Richmond broke ground on a $28MM, purpose built football facility which opened in 2010, and is LEED Silver Certified. A University that does that isn't divesting of football to benefit basketball: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Claiborne_Robins_Stadium http://bcwh.com/work/university-of-richmond-e-claiborne-r... /



It's not they're divesting football, it's that competing at that level costs less.
Back to Top
  
100%Cat
General User



Member Since: 1/17/2013
Post Count: 2,488

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 3:33:51 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
cc-cat wrote:
So Duke was not one of the best 16 teams that year. In fact they were not one of the top 32. Yea right. Since it is not a round robin the teams can not be ranked by the placement (nor are they). And yes. The tournament does not necessarily determine the best team, but it does determine a champion - hence the National Champion.


So the runner-up can be the best team, while the winner is just the champion? This makes no earthly sense. Yes, if Duke didn't make the Sweet 16 cut, they were, in the final analysis, not one of the 16 best teams. Don't like it, Duke. Tough cookies!


Is the winner of the MAC tournament always the best team in the MAC...or the team that gets hot in Cleveland? It can be both, but it's often not.


If you win you're the best. Strange concept I know. Learned it on my last visit to Mars.


With all due respect, you're wrong. This season, if Central Michigan or Northern Illinois miraculously wins the MAC Tournament, they would not be the best team in the conference. If what you are saying were true, there would be no need for a regular season at all. Or seeding. Just have a single elimination tournament and the "best" team is the winner.

My personal opinion on conference tournaments is that I don't like them at all. I'd rather see them go away. If the purpose of the conference automatic bid to the NCAA tournament is for the best team from the conference to go and represent the MAC, I'd rather there be no conference tournament. The team that proves they are the best for an 18 game conference schedule should be the representative. But "that's not fair" and, more importantly, produces far less revenue, so it won't happen. I don't like seeing a sub .500 team in the NCAA tournament because they got hot for 3 games. I don't think that's right, but look at my avatar: I blow luke warm air.

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 3:38:07 PM by 100%Cat
Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 4:24:13 PM 
100%Cat wrote:
With all due respect, you're wrong. This season, if Central Michigan or Northern Illinois miraculously wins the MAC Tournament, they would not be the best team in the conference. If what you are saying were true, there would be no need for a regular season at all. Or seeding. Just have a single elimination tournament and the "best" team is the winner.


With all due respect, that's the operational definition we live with when we have a tournament. CMU wins the MAC Tournament, they are -- by definition -- the best team in the conference. If we didn't have a tournament, the regular season champ would be the best. If we didn't have the NCAA tournament, the final season poll #1 would be taken by many to be the national champion, but others would always argue. That's the way it used to be in FBS football, before it was called FBS. I have a friend who would like it to go back to just a poll, because he liked the ability to argue and to always believe his team was #1.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Joe McKinley
General User



Member Since: 11/15/2004
Post Count: 483

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 5:37:29 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
A great staff with Billy Hahn and Fran Fraschilla assisting Nee. Hahn, while not an accomplished head coach, recently retired as a very successful and highly thought of assistant coach at Ohio, Maryland and finally with Huggy Bear at WVU. That staff was establishing a recruiting connection to the basketball hotbeds of NYC and Philly.

Like UB today, those teams had a frontline that could and did match up with the big boys of college hoops.


Danny Nee teams went 0-8 vs opponents that were ranked when Ohio played them.

1980-81: #18 Illinois (-30)
1981-82: #3 DePaul (-22)
1982-83: #19 St. John’s (-10), #12 Kentucky (-17)
1983-84: #16 DePaul (-24)
1984-85: #12 Indiana (-17), #13 Kansas (-11)
1985-86: #1 North Carolina (-42)

We were better against unranked power conference teams 3-3. With wins by 1,3 and 2. Losses by 19, 3 and 4.

We were strong in MAC play and I’d take our front line over any other league foe in that era - and there were some pretty good ones.

BTW- Billy Hahn was 0-2 against ranked teams and 1-2 against power conference teams.



Last Edited: 2/1/2018 5:41:17 PM by Joe McKinley
Back to Top
  
OhioStunter
General User



Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
Post Count: 2,516

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 6:07:46 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
With all due respect, you're wrong. This season, if Central Michigan or Northern Illinois miraculously wins the MAC Tournament, they would not be the best team in the conference. If what you are saying were true, there would be no need for a regular season at all. Or seeding. Just have a single elimination tournament and the "best" team is the winner.


With all due respect, that's the operational definition we live with when we have a tournament. CMU wins the MAC Tournament, they are -- by definition -- the best team in the conference. If we didn't have a tournament, the regular season champ would be the best. If we didn't have the NCAA tournament, the final season poll #1 would be taken by many to be the national champion, but others would always argue. That's the way it used to be in FBS football, before it was called FBS. I have a friend who would like it to go back to just a poll, because he liked the ability to argue and to always believe his team was #1.



I feel like we've had this discussion on another thread a while ago. By this operational definition, when Akron beat Ohio in football this season, it meant Akron was the better team. And I just can't live with that.
Back to Top
  
GraffZ06
General User



Member Since: 1/5/2005
Location: Dayton, OH
Post Count: 1,895

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/1/2018 11:51:10 PM 
OhioStunter wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
With all due respect, you're wrong. This season, if Central Michigan or Northern Illinois miraculously wins the MAC Tournament, they would not be the best team in the conference. If what you are saying were true, there would be no need for a regular season at all. Or seeding. Just have a single elimination tournament and the "best" team is the winner.


With all due respect, that's the operational definition we live with when we have a tournament. CMU wins the MAC Tournament, they are -- by definition -- the best team in the conference. If we didn't have a tournament, the regular season champ would be the best. If we didn't have the NCAA tournament, the final season poll #1 would be taken by many to be the national champion, but others would always argue. That's the way it used to be in FBS football, before it was called FBS. I have a friend who would like it to go back to just a poll, because he liked the ability to argue and to always believe his team was #1.



I feel like we've had this discussion on another thread a while ago. By this operational definition, when Akron beat Ohio in football this season, it meant Akron was the better team. And I just can't live with that.



Just like HRC supporters can't live with the election results. Doesn't make it any less reality or fact. Winning is winning, quite literally by definition. I feel like I'm in some sort of alternate reality where winning isn't REALLY what matters.

Go ask the 2007 New England Patriots, 1991 UNLV Runnin Rebels or 2016 Golden St Warriors how much it meant to be considered "the best team" throughout the season. Nothing. They didn't win it. They weren't ultimately the best team that year. To be that, you actually have to be the best (i.e. win the game) on the day it actually matters. Being the best the other 364 days is nothing more than talk show fodder. Novel concept, I know.

P.S. @ 100%Cat - you're exactly right. There ISN'T a point to MAC (or any other 1-bid league) regular season aside from seeding for the MAC tournament. Win in Cleveland, get to NCAA tournament. That's it. Just win when it matters baby. You may not like it but it doesn't make it untrue. I've been saying it for years and years.

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 11:54:42 PM by GraffZ06
Back to Top
  
OhioCatFan
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,016

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 2:13:36 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
I feel like we've had this discussion on another thread a while ago. By this operational definition, when Akron beat Ohio in football this season, it meant Akron was the better team. And I just can't live with that.


Out-coached and out-played on a given Saturday = better team. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, doesn't make you better. Winning does.

Yes, we did have this discussion before. Except the last time I had my buddy Monroe to back me up. He may not have always been right, but he was right on this concept, as would be any rational human being. ;-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Back to Top
  
Campus Flow
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,952

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 4:10:25 AM 
A general comment about the MAC as a 1 bid league. If football was a one bid league to the college football playoff along with the SBC, CUSA, MWC, AAC ect. would any of us be complaining about that? Would we be satisfied competing in a consistent 2 bid league like the A10 or WCC? The AAC thought of itself as a failure last year picking up only 2 bids instead of the usual 4 NCAA bids. In basketball the power conference line going back a few decades was always about 4 bids a year. That is when you start getting in the NCAAs with 20-22 wins.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Back to Top
  
Campus Flow
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,952

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 5:05:16 AM 
SBH wrote:
Our only real chance of attaining consistent national prominence in basketball passed when Danny Nee left town. He had been approached about the Nebraska job but really didn't want to leave Athens. He had built a killer staff and wanted to let that play out at Ohio, but needed Charles Ping to commit the budgetary resources to make it sustainable. That would have meant downgrading football, and Ping said no.
The rest is history.


Interesting interpretation of what the thinking was in the mid 80's. I believe that would have been about the first time getting out of the MAC was feasible since the Athens bypass was just complete and a rational in place (MAC's relative decline began around 1980). The timing could have been there for making a move to the MVC. Illinois State wasn't added to the MVC until 1980. Northern Iowa and Missouri St joined in the early 90's. A spot for Ohio in the MVC is plausible since Cincinnati was in the MVC at one point and Athens is only a few hours removed from Cincinnati. Horizon League at that time was a private school league with Evansville, Butler, Loyola, Detroit, Saint Louis, Notre Dame in that conference. In the mid 80's we weren't attractive enough for a high major conference like that. Turn the clock to 2017 and the Horizon is ranked in the 20's as an RPI conference. MVC is falling behind the MAC in TV deals because they don't have FBS football. From a historical perspective staying in the MAC and committing to FBS football ended up the best course of action.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Back to Top
  
Campus Flow
General User



Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,952

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 5:24:16 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
SBH wrote:
I doubt Levert was ever coming to Ohio, with or without Groce returning.


On what factoid do you base this assertion?


Those guys were definitely on their way to Athens. What I think we are forgetting here is that Groce made 2 runs in the NCAA tournament (2010, 2012). That means that neither run was isolated but part of a trend. That 2012 team won a school record 29 games. Groce program was about to turn the corner and become a regular NCAA participant program like a VCU or Wichita St. Ohio unlike those programs wasn't willing to match Illinois salary. The figure thrown about out of OU at the time was 700k while Illinois was 1.4 million. Illinois is arguably a Top 15 job which is very tough to pass up. Had a Big Ten job not been open Ohio probably could have kept him at 700k with a couple more NCAA runs and we wouldn't be having the discussion about empty seats in the Convo lower bowl.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Back to Top
  
100%Cat
General User



Member Since: 1/17/2013
Post Count: 2,488

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 8:11:23 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
With all due respect, you're wrong. This season, if Central Michigan or Northern Illinois miraculously wins the MAC Tournament, they would not be the best team in the conference. If what you are saying were true, there would be no need for a regular season at all. Or seeding. Just have a single elimination tournament and the "best" team is the winner.


With all due respect, that's the operational definition we live with when we have a tournament. CMU wins the MAC Tournament, they are -- by definition -- the best team in the conference. If we didn't have a tournament, the regular season champ would be the best. If we didn't have the NCAA tournament, the final season poll #1 would be taken by many to be the national champion, but others would always argue. That's the way it used to be in FBS football, before it was called FBS. I have a friend who would like it to go back to just a poll, because he liked the ability to argue and to always believe his team was #1.



In no place is it defined that CMU would be anything other than the MAC tourney champs. "Best" is nowhere in the definition. It might be in yours, but that doesn't make it right. We'll agree to disagree.
Back to Top
  
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...
   Posted: 2/2/2018 8:58:14 AM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
SBH wrote:
I doubt Levert was ever coming to Ohio, with or without Groce returning.


On what factoid do you base this assertion?

Groce program was about to turn the corner and become a regular NCAA participant program like a VCU or Wichita St.


This assertion feels an awful lot like wishful thinking to me.

Part of why VCU and Wichita State were able to turn that corner is that they played in leagues that allowed for multiple bids. There are literally dozens of programs that had nice runs that involved multiple NCAA tournament wins. But very few (if any?!) examples of teams from single bid leagues that became VCU/Wichita State.

Kent State, Bucknell, Vermont, Florida Gulf Coast, George Mason, Weber State, Harvard, Stephen F. Austin, Northern Iowa, Valpo, and Davidson all say hi.

No matter how much we want it to be true, this is basically impossible to pull off in our league.
Back to Top
  
Showing Replies:  51 - 75  of 141 Posts
Jump to Page:  < Previous    1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6    Next >
View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             



WHO'S ONLINE
There are 112 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com
112 Guests
0 Registered Users
There are no other users looking at this page.




Copyright ©2024 BobcatAttack.com. All rights reserved.  |  Privacy Policy  |  Terms of Use
Partner of USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties