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Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Topic: RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

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crackerbaby00
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Member Since: 3/8/2007
Post Count: 441

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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 2:19:00 PM

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

I think it's safe to say that some of the folks here will never be happy. Outside of the tournament, Groce was mediocre in the MAC. Christian won 49 games here in two years, including a regular season shared title, and people acted like he was the worst coach in program history.

I like your facts! Groce won 53% of MAC games. In fact before his final year here he was below 50% in MAC play. Good probability he left because he knew he'd not repeat the Sweet 16 year and saw the big $$$ at Illinois. I too am perplexed by those who crucified Christian. He won 74% of his MAC games here. He's still hanging in there at BC while Groce is back in the MAC.

Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in.

I agree that we should have been better the next year. Just clarifying that Levert was coming the year after the Sweet 16 run, but Bradds was going to be the year after that.

mid70sbobcat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 3:17:27 PM

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Who said anything about Groce taking Ohio back to the Sweet 16 the following year? Would it have been possible...I think so...especially with Bradds and LeVert coming in. To sit here and think that Groce said, "Hmmm...I can't take my team to back-to-back Sweet 16's..I'm outta here.".....is ridiculous. The dude took the money and became a millionaire and I don't blame him at all. I'm convinced Groce would have gotten his team back to the NCAA tourney the next year and everyone would have been thrilled with that.

Let me ask you this, in 20 years...what will you remember about Groce Vs Christian? Groce's NCAA tournament wins or Christian winning 74% of his MAC games and no NCAA tournament appearances? Come on man!? I don't see a banner hanging from the Convo that says Jim Christian won 74% of his MAC games. #14Months

You've implied if Groce came back things would have been different. Face it ...he had his 15 minutes of fame in Athens and bolted for bigger job and more $$$. And NOW he's back in the MAC!

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

Maybe no banner but Christian was a better coach than you certainly give him credit for. You seemed to despise the guy since he failed to get us back to NCAA. And the reality is Christian had a 14-2 MAC record his first year versus Groce at 11-5 the prior year. Everything just didn't fall into place and the MAC is a one bid league.

FearLeon
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 3:27:31 PM

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

Really...anyone can get hot and make a run??! Funny, I�m still waiting for Billy Hahn, Larry Hunter, Jim Christian and Saul Phillips to make a run. Enjoy hanging that "JC won 74% of his MAC games" banner up in the Convo rafters. #14Months

Last Edited: 1/31/2018 3:41:22 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

100%Cat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 3:49:53 PM

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

We do have that "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner up there. Funny, I can't find Groce's.

By the way, a coach as great as the legend, John Groce, must have done great things at Illinois with better talent in a better league, right? How did he do at Illinois?

FearLeon
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:02:01 PM

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

Comical how people focus on Groce's "bad results" and JC's "good results". Who the hell is ever going to remember a 14-2 MAC season? I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it. I love all the excuses I'm reading here as to why Ohio was one made free throw away from the Elite 8. "It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Go enjoy staring at the "JC won a share of the regular season conference title" banner every home game. I'll enjoy staring at Groce's two NCAA banners (one that reads Sweet 16) a hell of a lot more. Going to be interesting if Groce takes Akron to the NCAA's before Ohio. #14Months

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Andrew Ruck
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Location: Columbus, OH
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:02:51 PM

FearLeon is becoming the Monroe of the basketball board.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

100%Cat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:10:34 PM

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

He also had a lot to do with MAC mediocrity. Why do you ignore that? Never finished higher than 3rd in the East. Never won consistently on the road. Those things continued at Illinois. And like I asked, how did his Illinois tenure go? I mean, a coach that amazing, he must have done big things in the B1G, right? He was at least in the NCAA's every year at Illinois, right? Right?

*crickets*

Last Edited: 1/31/2018 4:11:09 PM by 100%Cat

OU_Country
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Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
Post Count: 8,320

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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:14:39 PM

Andrew Ruck wrote:

FearLeon is becoming the Monroe of the basketball board.

I'm pretty sure the transformation is complete - it's too late, he's crossed over the the dark side already.

Bobcat1996
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Member Since: 1/2/2017
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:22:54 PM

"#14 months." Some of you seem confident that in 14 months that Saul will be gone. I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Sure he can't afford another poor season, but what if Ohio ends up with 20 plus wins and a 4th seed next winter and wins the league tourney or is in the finals? Don't bank on this #14 months.

crackerbaby00
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Member Since: 3/8/2007
Post Count: 441

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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 4:46:12 PM

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

I can't believe how so many get excited over solid years with no titles vs a run to the Sweet 16. One guy rose the program and had it positioned for serious national contention and the other guy killed it.

I actually think the run may have continued had JC stayed. He had a really good recruiting class coming in that next year, all or most of who de-committed after he left. One of them was Tariq Owens who, after starting off at Tenn before transferring, is now averaging 8ppg, 6rpg, and 3.5bpg for St. Johns. I think if JC had stuck around, we may have stayed near that same level for a few more years.

Maddog13
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Location: Albuquerque, NM
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 5:05:47 PM

I remember an Ohio Alumni event years ago in Southern California, where President Glidden went from table to table talking to people about their hopes for and concerns about the future of Ohio. Being a hometown boy from Athens, I asked him if there had been any backlash from him firing one of Southeastern Ohio's native sons, Larry Hunter, as the basketball coach. He said something along the lines that doing so had been unpleasant business, but that, according to the metrics that were being used at the time, the feeling in the corridors of power at Ohio University is that the Basketball program should be dominating the MAC year and year out. With that in mind, it seems that Christian was the kind of coach that they were looking for, though Groce certainly won points with his deep run into the NCAA tournament.

As for Tim O'Shea, it always appeared that he had one step out of the program from the very start of his tenure, and that Saul, though a better fit, now finds himself back to potentially having the same kind of bad season that marked the beginning of the end of the Larry Hunter era.

The real question now, us fans aside, is how Saul's relationship is going with those who have influence over the basketball program at Ohio.

cc-cat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 5:21:20 PM

FearLeon wrote:

"It was the matchups"...one poster wrote. This is all very comical. Yep, Groce had nothing to do with it.

Hey, that's me!!

Actually I said our run was because we played well when it counted (which credits the coaches and players) and 2). had match-ups that favored our team. Which they did - and is a key in every March Madness - in our run: Michigan was staggering down the stretch and was not particularly good defending the 3. And South Florida took Temple out of the way.

Last Edited: 1/31/2018 5:23:06 PM by cc-cat

BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 5:29:31 PM

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

You obviously cannot be a fan of the football program then.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 6:45:52 PM

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

Quick point of contention: Groce never had the program positioned for serious national contention and anybody who thinks that is kidding themselves. We had a nice run. We went to the Sweet 16. It was the most fun I've ever had as a sports fan.

But plenty of teams go to the Sweet 16. It's not the sort of feat that sets you up for national contention. Florida Gulf Coast went, never to be heard from again. Chattanooga, Bradley, Valpo, and Richmond have all been. Hell, Davidson had their run with a generational talent and it netted them a spot in a bigger conference. Are they nationally relevant?

It's possible but very hard to make the transition from strong mid-major in a single bid league to legitimate national contender. Here's the list that have accomplished it: Gonzaga, Butler, Wichita State, VCU, Saint Mary's, and Creighton.

All of those schools share a common trait: they don't pay for an FBS football team, so more budget goes to basketball.

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

OhioStunter
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 7:28:38 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

It's true. All of it.

+1.

Mark Lembright '85
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Location: Highland Heights, OH
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 8:58:30 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

[QUOTE=FearLeon] [QUOTE=100%Cat] [QUOTE=FearLeon] [QUOTE=mid70sbobcat] [QUOTE=FearLeon] [QUOTE=mid70sbobcat] [QUOTE=100%Cat]

Anybody who thinks Ohio, as currently set up, is just a few breaks away from consistent national contention is kidding themselves. We need an institutional change coupled with a run or two like the ones Groce oversaw. Which is exactly why Groce bolted for Illinois at the first opportunity and will do the same to Akron if he has success there. The MAC is limited as a basketball conference because it also tries to be a football conference. We're doomed to a ceiling of mediocrity in both as a result.

I don�t think that�s necessarily true. In 2012, wasn�t Ohio only one of a handful of schools that actually won a bowl game and a NCAA Tournament game in the season? That�s certainly not mediocre. I�m not saying that Ohio could and should consistently expect such results, but I don�t think Ohio�s doomed to mediocrity either.

And given what�s happened in hoops with the Adidas scandal and in football with the MSU scandal, maybe not being able to hang with the big boys is a good thing!! 😊

Last Edited: 1/31/2018 9:00:07 PM by Mark Lembright '85

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 9:05:15 PM

Mark Lembright '85 wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

There are now 40 bowl games. More than half of FBS plays in one. The year you cited, Ohio was ranked 58th nationally by this guy:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1742041

That's pretty much the definition of mediocrity.

Mark Lembright '85
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 9:12:15 PM

That wasn�t my point. My point, I guess articulated poorly, was that not many schools win both a bowl game AND a March Madness game in the same year and the winning of both doesn�t reflect a mediocre athletic program. And by definition only 34 out of over 300 schools can win a NCAA Tournament game in any given year. No matter how minor the football bowl game might be, if Ohio can win a bowl game and a March Madness game every year, color me very, very, very happy.

Last Edited: 1/31/2018 9:15:41 PM by Mark Lembright '85

BobcatSports
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 9:28:27 PM

Not in any way trying to make excuses for Saul but when so much of your roster is decimated by injury ANY program at ANY D1 program would probably be suffering a similar fate as ours.

Not downplaying Groce�s Sweet16 run but some things that stuck out to me:
- We won the MACC by the razor-thin call as whether Akron (Zeke) tipped in a free-throw or not
- The NCAA match-up was critical. Groce may still be coaching in Athens IF the 1st round match-up had been Mich.State and not Michigan.
- North Carolina�s starting PG was out with injury. Based on comments from some on this board Roy Williams must be a crappy recruiter too since he didn�t have another PG at the ready when his starter went down. Even though North Carolina had a roster of future NBAer�s they got spanked in the Elite 8 game by Kansas. I met North Carolina�s Director of BBall operations last year and he was completely complimentary of OHIO but stated they had NO chance against Kansas without their starting PG.

Go back to our NCAA run of 2010. For those who are critical of Saul�s freshman not being MAC first teamers, Groce�s freshman bigs Reggie and Ivo had 2 or 3 minutes of court time in the Georgetown or Tennessee game. Makes Carter�s performance to me last year all the more impressive when Tone went down. Also go back to Tone�s freshman year-he wasn�t an instant success. Nor was DeVaughn or KVK.

Kirk shows himself to be a scorer. The lack of assists is concerning. May he have been better served being an apprentice under Simmons?

I think the tenor of this board would be entirely different had Simmons came back and the rest of the roster been healthy.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 10:34:29 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

This^^^^^^^^^^!! ( My Fear Leon imitation )

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 11:21:34 PM

cc-cat wrote:

While I agree the program has certainly dropped over the past years - Sweet 16 does not mean we were one of the best 16 teams in the country. It means we 1). played well when it counted and 2). had match-ups that favored our team.

Then what the hell does it mean? Don't give me the "body of work" argument. It doesn't mean a damn thing. It makes a lot of fodder for talking heads, but it's what you do on the court when your chance comes up that is most important. If you win, you are the better team; if you lose, you are not the better team. It's a one-and-done tournament. All participants know that. By your logic the team that wins the national championship isn't really the best team in the nation if some talking head makes a good case that the team they beat has a better resume, a better body of work, more All-Americans players, or would win nine out of ten games with the victorious team. Yes, OHIO was at least the 16th best team in the nation that year. Since there are sixteen teams that make the sweet sixteen, it's not possible to rank the eight teams that lost and didn't advance to the Elite eight level.

In FBS football, however, we are back to having polls and personal opinion determine who is the better team since UCF was left out of the playoff and beat Auburn during the regular season, the only team to beat both Alabama and Georgia during the regular session. It's a total mess. Basketball actually has a real tournament to determine the final rankings of teams. I, for one, prefer determining rankings via a tournament rather than by polls or talking heads.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

cc-cat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 11:36:57 PM

So Duke was not one of the best 16 teams that year. In fact they were not one of the top 32. Yea right. Since it is not a round robin the teams can not be ranked by the placement (nor are they). And yes. The tournament does not necessarily determine the best team, but it does determine a champion - hence the National Champion.

OhioCatFan
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 1/31/2018 11:44:02 PM

cc-cat wrote:

So the runner-up can be the best team, while the winner is just the champion? This makes no earthly sense. Yes, if Duke didn't make the Sweet 16 cut, they were, in the final analysis, not one of the 16 best teams. Don't like it, Duke. Tough cookies!

FearLeon
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/1/2018 7:03:52 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

FearLeon wrote:

mid70sbobcat wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Groce was a mediocre coach in MAC games; 2 losing seasons (7-9) and the year of sweet 16 we were 3rd in the East. Anyone can get hot at the right time and make a run.

This^^^^^^^^^^!! ( My Fear Leon imitation )

Thanks Jeff....imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But remember, you only need 3 of these ^^^ to make your point.....ya don't want to over do it. #13Months

Last Edited: 2/1/2018 7:10:32 AM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

100%Cat
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RE: 6 Years Removed From Sweet 16...

Posted: 2/1/2018 7:59:20 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

cc-cat wrote:

Is the winner of the MAC tournament always the best team in the MAC...or the team that gets hot in Cleveland? It can be both, but it's often not.

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