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Topic: RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Topic: RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

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BobcatPride
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Member Since: 3/14/2005
Post Count: 137

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 8:35:22 AM

OUAlum85 wrote:

Even if he hasn’t yet lost the team, he has clearly lost me.....when apathy sets in, your issues become far greater than one individual....The time for Saul to go is now!..... 14 months from now and there may be nothing left to recover from.

Add me to the lost as well. It’s hard for me to get to many games (distance and other conflicting events), and I’ve been frustrated that I haven’t gotten to the Convo this season. I’m getting less and less excited about going after seeing the team’s recent results.

I understand Carter being out hasn’t helped, but that can’t be the only problem. Interested to hear from those posters better plugged-in to the program: how has Saul recruited since he’s been here? What are the prospects for recruiting in the future? Seems like there isn’t enough talent coming in to make up for any transfers/injuries, but would love to read the analysis of those more in the know.

FearLeon
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Member Since: 3/12/2005
Post Count: 4,125

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 9:04:53 AM

BobcatPride wrote:

OUAlum85 wrote:

And this is the bigger issue...great post here^^^^. So many are harping on Jason Carter's absence, but let's be real, Jason Carter is not Gary Trent. Would he make a difference and help...absolutely. But let's not get too carried away here. I am greatly concerned about the level of talent Saul has already brought in and what is coming in. None of the three signed for next year are slam dunk automatic contributors in year one. Heck, one or two could be considered projects. #SaulBall has me baffled right now.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,023

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 9:06:55 AM

Two answers - less than 2500 which includes the band and the football team for the first half and his shorts were Miami orange, green and white.

The Better Ohio Bobcat
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Member Since: 3/28/2017
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 196

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 9:25:06 AM

Maybe all the injuries are because we are recruiting players who get injured a lot. Or maybe they are overworking them somehow in practice. 3 guys in 2 years breaking their foot might not be a coincidence.

Last Edited: 1/17/2018 10:00:42 AM by The Better Ohio Bobcat

Recovering Journalist
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Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 9:29:56 AM

FearLeon wrote:

Yup. We've gone from a program where our starters would start on the vast majority of MAC rosters and our bench players would start on lesser MAC rosters to a lot of players (not all, but a lot) who don't even cut it in the MAC.

In a sport where only 13 scholarships are available, every recruiting whiff sets the program back, and we have more than a few.

TheBobcatBandit
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Member Since: 8/25/2013
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 10:13:37 AM

I don't think our problems are so much with talent as they are with lack of depth. We have been plagued by injuries, add that to the loss of Simmons and I don't think you can put too much blame on Saul. He had success at his last school, no reason he can't again. I'm willing to give him another year. I'm excited about what we have returning next year. A starting lineup of Kirk, Dartis, Block, Taylor and Carter could be fun to watch. Or some variation of that. If they can stay healthy and other guys can step up and contribute on the bench I think we can have a rebound year. If we still can't win maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

I hate to post about next year already, but I don't think it's fair to get rid of Saul after this season when there is some potential for next year and hopefully this year. I think we do have some talent on this squad and we have some decent OOC wins. If we can find some energy late in the year and some shots start falling hopefully we can surprise some people in Cleveland.

Cleveburg Bri
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Member Since: 1/18/2006
Post Count: 38

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 10:15:46 AM

Related to this, I find it frustrating when I read arguments about how losing Jaaron is the cause of Ohio's woes (along with Carter). It's certainly true to a point, but it's also true that Saul had only one(1) point guard on the roster in 2015/16 and 2016/17. That recruiting mistake is why we have a frosh at the helm now, not Jaaron's decision.

GoCats105
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Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,913

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 10:23:14 AM

Cleveburg Bri wrote:

I actually agree with this and I worried for two years that there wasn't another PG on the roster other than Jaaron. I don't think that's reason this team is regressing; I like Kirk and Butler combined with Jordy in a 3-guard offense.

But it was a glaring issue that Saul was putting A LOT of faith that Jaaron was going to be there for good. If he truly thought Jaaron was the be-all, end-all for the means to a successful 2017-18 campaign, then that was very shortsighted.

OhioStunter
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Member Since: 2/18/2005
Location: Chicago
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 10:23:52 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

Did Saul ever really have this program? We all like to say "Saul Ball" but what exactly is "Saul Ball?" I think he's a nice guy. I think he is a good person. I think he probably knows his stuff. But what is his vision? In year 1 we gave him a pass and said that it was a bunch of bad apples. In year 2 we get to see Tone come into his own and a great leader in Treg combining with Kaminski (once again, a great guy but how does he fit into Saul Ball?). And of course Jaaron has an amazing first year.

Year 3 we get Jaaron dribbling for 25 seconds and no player development. Dartis, Taylor and Block have been in the program playing major minutes for THREE YEARS. Gollon is in year 3 and so is Dozier. No improvement from any of those guys. We get Mickle in and he seemingly does not fit our program at all. Once again...nice guy, nice athleticism but how does he FIT? I would wonder if we should have found a diamond in the rough freshman rather than him. And look at next year's class. So McMurray seems like a "find." Murrell can't even get court time on a JUCO. Springs scores 20 one game and three the next. If you look at who we were interested in and lost out on that is also telling. I am not excited about next year's trio and don't know if Vander Plas will ever play.

I fell for the smile. I fell for the "aw shucks" stuff and I fell for the Wisconsin accent. I fell for the "I am going to stay here until my daughter graduates high school" stuff. But in year 4, injuries or no injuries, transfers or no transfers, we are not getting better while programs like Ball State, Buffalo and Toledo are getting much better.

This is a good take.

greencat
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Member Since: 3/12/2005
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 10:59:24 AM

Gareri/Mickel/Dozier = 33 minutes and 0 points on 0-7 shooting. If this is what Saul thinks will make Ohio a contender in the MAC, he gone.

I do have a tip on a good potential replacement...

ISU assistant Brian Collins.

Played for the legend Rick Byrd four years.
Head coach of a high level juco program: 54-11 overall record and made back-to-back appearances in the National Junior College Tournament.
As assistant coach at East Tennessee State, helped the Bucs win the Southern Conference Tournament and earn an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament. ETSU posted a 27-8 overall record and won a share of the SoCon regular-season title with a 14-4 league mark.
Now in rebuilding mode at Illinois State, already upset South Carolina and Ole Miss this season.

The guy is like barely 33 years old.

GoCats105
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Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 6,913

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:27:29 AM

Saul sounds just as frustrated as we do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_ynZfJtUc

Recovering Journalist
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Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,839

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:28:27 AM

Whether you want to give SP another year or want him gone tomorrow, he'll be here next season. There is no money or appetite to buy anyone out, and he's got a year left on his contract.

Best case: He proves his doubters wrong and earns an extension next year.

Middle case: A bit better than mediocrity if everyone's healthy, then a debate on whether mediocre results are worth renewing.

Worst case: We continue to be a moribund program limping along the bottom of the MAC, only this time with a lame-duck coach.

FanInTheStands
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Member Since: 10/11/2015
Post Count: 172

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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:38:09 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

Saul sounds just as frustrated as we do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_ynZfJtUc

GoCats105
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Location: Seattle, WA
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:40:33 AM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Last Edited: 1/17/2018 11:41:20 AM by GoCats105

greencat
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:44:24 AM

I posted one time that he needed to recruit players that were at a minimum Carter/Kirk level or higher. No scrubs except as walk-ons.

This was amended with the prediction of what happened last night would happen.

Anybody still want to ridicule that post?

**and yes, Carter has lots of potential when healthy but his name is not Wilt or Kareem. Or Moses Malone or Artis Gilmore. Or Tim Duncan. His absence is not worth the home court @ss beating that happened.

Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 11:56:54 AM

So let's say this season they finish .500, a little better, or a little worse than that. In your opinion what is the least amount it takes for an extension after 2019? A MAC title? A MAC title appearance? 25+ wins?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I can easily see an extension from this administration if there are 25 wins, noticeable improvement in player development and a MAC title appearance, but no title.
[/QUOTE]

A .500ish finish next year would have to finish the Saulball era. We're not paying a mediocre MAC salary, so we shouldn't tolerate what would then be five years of mediocre results with the highest achievement being a close loss in a MAC tournament semifinal.

That's a long way from being mad a Jim Christian because he lost in the finals and grousing about making the CIT.

The last losing season at Ohio was Groce's first, and I think we all give a long leash to a first-year coach. We're about to suffer a losing season in year FOUR. We used to laugh at Miami for stuff like this, but now we're Miami. And Miami has excuses - they starved their program of money and attention to kill it. We're killing it while paying top-dollar in the conference to do so. At the risk of sounding like Chuck Landon, it's unacceptable.

FearLeon
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 12:02:24 PM

Recovering Journalist wrote:

A .500ish finish next year would have to finish the Saulball era. We're not paying a mediocre MAC salary, so we shouldn't tolerate what would then be five years of mediocre results with the highest achievement being a close loss in a MAC tournament semifinal.

That's a long way from being mad a Jim Christian because he lost in the finals and grousing about making the CIT.

The last losing season at Ohio was Groce's first, and I think we all give a long leash to a first-year coach. We're about to suffer a losing season in year FOUR. We used to laugh at Miami for stuff like this, but now we're Miami. And Miami has excuses - they starved their program of money and attention to kill it. We're killing it while paying top-dollar in the conference to do so. At the risk of sounding like Chuck Landon, it's unacceptable. [/QUOTE]

Just another great take^^^^^. Unacceptable indeed.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

colobobcat66
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Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 12:22:32 PM

FearLeon wrote:

Recovering Journalist wrote:

Just another great take^^^^^. Unacceptable indeed.

[/QUOTE]
You guys are acting like Saul’s first year at 10-20 doesn’t exist. It does.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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Location: Ohio
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 12:29:40 PM

I'm as frustrated (pi$$ed) as anyone, but if you're on here calling for Saul's head, then you've lost the ability to reason. Last year we lost our best player in January, and still grabbed the 2-seed in this conference. He didn't forget how to coach, and no one here has any clue what goes in the locker room. He deserves and will get a chance to get this right again.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 12:47:42 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

spongeBOB CATpants
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 12:50:17 PM

greencat wrote:

I agree with you here, but basketball recruiting is ridiculously difficult. I've read a of posters wanting to recruit to "fit" the system. Do we actually think we can just go grab any recruit we want just because we identify them as a good "fit"? I say recruit the best talent and adjust the system to fit them.

Alan Swank
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 1:06:52 PM

FanInTheStands wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

Saul sounds just as frustrated as we do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_ynZfJtUc

Interesting quote at about the 3:50 mark. He talked about competing and that Doug competed very well tonight - "he didn't check out." Maybe I'm reading something into this but it almost sounds like he feels some people did. Thoughts after listening to the clip?

OU_Country
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 3:17:18 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

I agree - and there's a TON of inability to reason happening 'round here these days.

I've defended them, to an extent, because of injuries. There's no defense for losing that bad at home, ever. Everyone knows it - especially the 15 players plus the coaches in the locker room. There's not much left to say about last night besides the fact that it was terrible all around.

I whole-heartedly disagree with any notion that the prior two seasons were "disappointing". If your expectation is something resembling the 2011-2013 years, then yeah, they are. But those 2011-13 years well above what the norm was in the prior 25 years of Ohio Basketball, save the three years of Gary Trent's time here. The prior two seasons are at, or a little above the norm. We've already covered what some people place as expectations on this program. Whatever yours are individually are up to you. While there's little question that this season has been well below expectations, I also know that some seem have expectations that will never be met here, regardless of who the coach is.

To say that we are Miami, ohhh boy, that's flat out absurd. That would imply that our program has been among the bottom 3 in the MAC over 5,6 years with multiple coaches. That's what is happening this year, but it sure as hell isn't what happened the previous two seasons.

OU_Country
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 3:20:19 PM

OUAlum85 wrote:

We'll welcome you back on the bandwagon when they win 20+ games a year. Until then, the sky ain't falling 14 months from now. There will be recovery, be it with or without the current staff.

Recovering Journalist
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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RE: Has Saul Lost The Team?

Posted: 1/17/2018 3:54:10 PM

OU_Country wrote:

I just don't feel unreasonable in the least. We're in year four and it sucks. SP is either the highest or second-highest paid coach in the MAC. This program sells the most tickets in the MAC*. It puts the most butts in the seats in the MAC* (*poised to change). If you're cool with two seasons of 11-7 and no tournament final followed by the wilderness campaign of this season, then your expectations are exceptionally low.

The fact is, that as of right now, Miami is on the rise and this program is floundering. You're right that we're not Miami because they're in better shape right now.

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